Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus  (Read 878 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CLains

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2610
    • View Profile
  • BTS: clains
On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus
« on: March 08, 2014, 05:46:30 PM »

On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus

Each time a new DAC honors the Bitshares Social Consensus, the Bitshares AGS and PTS holders are happy since they receive a fifth or more stake in the new DAC. Each time Invictus launches a new DAC, they honor the Bitshares Social Consensus and give the Bitshares AGS and PTS holders a fifth or more stake the new DAC.

Why does Invictus do this?
Because Invictus promised to do so in exchange for the funding provided through AGS and PTS. In addition, Invictus are themselves holders of AGS and PTS, so they have incentive to follow through.

Why would anyone else do this?

Through funding Invictus has come into possession of significant capital. This allows them to create an attractive infrastructure that promises all young and aspiring DAC creators a slice of heaven if they commit to the Bitshares Social Consensus.

How does Invictus and the AGS/PTS holders promise young and aspiring DAC creators a slice of heaven?

So far there have been a number of suggestions.

1. Prizes, Bounties and Stipends
-- Stan's idea of a Shark Tank-like competition with a panel of judges where the prize is incubation, hosting, consultation support and promotion, and maybe stipends and cash?
-- Bounties for DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus, such as those suggested by Adam
-- Stipends to cover legal fees, travel/stay at incubator, etc.

2. Hosting and Incubation
-- Work in one of the incubators.
-- Free fully equipped office space.
-- Participate in presentations and meetings.
-- Interact with the Invictus team.

3. Consultation and Support
-- Legal, accounting, financial and tax support.
-- Forum and web site support.
-- Consulting with Dan Larimer and the team of innovators.

4. Promotion
-- Promotional support integrated with the global marketing campaign.
-- Help with reputation on the forum and through the Bitshares website.
-- Opportunities to speak at a major conference.

5. Community
-- Ready-built community - lots of informed eyeballs on your idea that help to refine it.
-- Attract PTS holders as a pre-selected informed group that have proven they won't mine and dump.
-- Attract AGS donors as a pre-selected informed group that have proven they will invest in good ideas.

6. General
-- Get help from Invictus and the AGS/PTS holders in removing whatever obstacles stand in your way.

Arguments for young and aspiring DAC creators to honor the Bitshares Social Consensus

So far there have been a number of arguments.

-- What's the alternative? Many would suggest you give it *ALL* away to mostly fly-by-night mine-and-dumpers, or that you keep it to sell, in which case you could be accused of transmitting money, offering securities, or pre-mining.

-- Of all the fair share distribution models that have been tried, the PTS/AGS combination has been perhaps the most fair. In addition, this model has perhaps produced the most successful funding campaign in crypto history.

-- What happens when your DAC suddenly has multiple competitors cloning it and looking for ways to overcome its first mover advantage? Think ahead and attach yourself to a large, fair, open and prosperous community.

-- With as little as 20% to the AGS/PTS holders there is still as much as 80% left for whatever you desire. One option is to do an AGS-style fundraiser where people donate crypto to your cause for a stake in your DAC.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:58:23 PM by CLains »
Vote for BTS-2 witness: spectral (1.6.30)

Follow https://steemit.com/@clains

Offline rysgc

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
    • View Profile
    • DACZine.com
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 05:52:04 PM »
Good summary! [Edited]
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 05:56:05 PM by GodsCreation »
DACZine.com - Receive all the latest DAC and BitShares community news straight to your inbox. Signup here or Submit news

Offline CLains

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2610
    • View Profile
  • BTS: clains
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2014, 05:57:40 PM »
We can use this thread to analyze the overall strategy of incentivizing the spawning of new DACs.

There is two separate threads now to evaluate Adams and Invictus's proposal respectively. Hopefully people will have even more important ideas that might spawn more threads.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 06:03:50 PM by CLains »
Vote for BTS-2 witness: spectral (1.6.30)

Follow https://steemit.com/@clains

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2864
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BTS: Stan
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 07:15:40 PM »
On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract

Each time a new DAC honors the Bitshares Social Contract, the Bitshares AGS and PTS holders are happy since they receive a fifth or more stake in the new DAC. Each time Invictus launches a new DAC, they honor the Bitshares Social Contract and give the Bitshares AGS and PTS holders a fifth or more stake the new DAC.

Why does Invictus do this?
Because Invictus promised to do so in exchange for the funding provided through AGS and PTS. In addition, Invictus are themselves holders of AGS and PTS, so they have incentive to follow through.

Why would anyone else do this?

Through funding Invictus has come into possession of significant funds. This allows them to create an attractive infrastructure that promises all young and aspiring DAC creators a slice of heaven if they commit to the Bitshares Social Contract. This brings us to our main question,

How does Invictus and the AGS/PTS holders promise young and aspiring DAC creators a slice of heaven?

So far there have been a number of suggestions.

1. Prizes, Bounties and Stipends
-- Stan's idea of a Shark Tank-like competition with a panel of judges where the prize is incubation, hosting, consultation support and promotion, and maybe stipends and cash?
-- Bounties for Bitshares Social Contract honoring DACs, such as that suggested by Adam
-- Stipends to cover legal fees, travel/stay at incubator, etc,

2. Hosting and Incubation
-- Work in one of the incubators,
-- Free fully equipped office space,
-- Participate in presentations and meetings,
-- Interact with the Invictus team,

3. Consultation and Support
-- Legal, accounting, financial and tax support,
-- Forum and web site support,
-- Consulting with Dan Larimer and the team of innovators,

4. Promotion
-- Promotional support integrated with the global marketing campaign,
-- Help with reputation on the forum and through the Bitshares website,
-- Opportunities to speak at a major conference,

This is very helpful.  Thanks.
Could we expand the list of third party advantages as follows?
  • You get a ready-built community - lots of informed eyeballs on your idea and help with refining it.
  • You get help from Invictus removing whatever obstacles stand in your way.
  • Attract PTS holders as a pre-selected informed group that have proven they won't mine and dump.
  • Attract AGS donors as a pre-selected informed group that have proven they will invest in good ideas.
  • You have up to 80% left over that you don't have to give away to those who will mine and dump!
And all the money people would have been willing to burn in the digital inferno I call "devil-mining"
to get your coin
is now preserved via much more environmentally-friendly "angel-mining" to fund your development!

What's the alternative outside the community?  Give it *ALL* away to mostly fly-by-night mine-and-dumpers or keep it to sell and be accused of transmitting money, offering securities or pre-mining?  Of all the fair share distribution models that have been tried, which one has proven better?  Perhaps it would be good to add a list of all such alternatives so people can compare and contrast them to see what their choices really are.  Then perhaps everyone can truly appreciate the paradigm shattering benefits of the BitShares Social Consensus.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 07:17:21 PM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline barwizi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • Noirbits, NoirShares, NoirEx.....lol, noir anyone?
    • View Profile
    • Noirbitstalk.org
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 07:30:17 PM »
As a dev and as part of the team that tried to structure the SC i have the following to say

The Social contract is thus far optional, and is worded in such a way that offers no explanation and so devs will utterly ignore it. The bounty was cancelled, but i have been trying to stimulate conversation, sometimes provocatively so that the community comes up with good, informed methods of incentivising future devs to honour the contract. The "how" and the "when" i have already answered in the guide i wrote on how to honour it, but the "why" is still murky,. Everyone wants to claim a % of a DAC yet when asked why they say "the contract", the contract is a social agreement that is not binding because it is not signed. We have to produce mechanisms that make the advantages of honoring it clear and lucrative. Forum member toast and i have been hashing this issue out and trying to find common ground, he raised an important question... how much does a dev value the attention of the community? Adam also mentioned that the size of this community (active) is also a factor that should be considered.

I think it needs to be worded more like an invitation, a welcoming document that clearly highlights the advantages of working in that frame. The initial idea was to make it a software license however, i once raised the idea that it should be make applicable on the community as a whole, not just a code base. Hopefully the release of NRS will highlight this crucial point.

My answer to toasts question was incomplete, in a nutshell however, i have taken the position that i value a community members attention based on their interest in my project. If you take a look at the charting documents of my venture, they clearly state that even inside the collective, you are free to choose. This is my position and i use it to highlight the massive gaps between PTS holders, devs and Invictus. Devs want to create DACs, but they need the community to justify 10% stake clearly and concisely. Will those accorded 10% free help to create value? or will they dump/ burn the dev in the forums at every turn?

I tend to avoid mentioning AGS because it raises questions like, "So i have honoured AGS, can i have some funding now for my DAC?". My main concern is for PTS holders, the real holders of which have held for over 3 months and now feel supremely cheated. I believe a new valuation gardient between AGS and PTS may help to ease tensions.

--Bar--  PiNEJGUv4AZVZkLuF6hV4xwbYTRp5etWWJ

The magical land of crypto, no freebies people.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2864
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BTS: Stan
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 08:16:44 PM »
I agree.  Talk of a license just motivates folks to look for valid exceptions and loopholes.

Much better to use a list of advantages like I just proposed above.  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3481.msg43759#msg43759

Also, while the number of great DACs available is small, a developer may calculate that she can attract the same amount of attention with 1% as with 10%.

So it all comes down to competition and market forces as described in the Ten Natural Laws.  A developer may be able to get away cheap initially by offering only a token nod to one community or another.  And as long as their product is not in high demand they may get away with it.

The question is, "What will happen if their DAC becomes popular and successful?"  What happens when a successful DAC suddenly has multiple competitors cloning it and looking for ways to overcome its first mover advantage?

It is then that the Ten Natural Laws will come home to roost.  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2876.0

That's why Invictus recommends going straight to 50/50 with BitShares X.  Why leave the back door open for someone to leapfrog you by using the competitive advantages you failed to exploit?  Why leave someone else with the support Invictus would be obliged to give them instead of you?

Its nice to have a comparison of people trying different competitive formulas, even those that don't value this community.
As long as there is no competition for your idea, almost anything will work.

The true test will be when you start to see success and people are looking for competitive advantages to overtake you.

Time will tell.




Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline CLains

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2610
    • View Profile
  • BTS: clains
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 10:46:16 PM »
This is very helpful.  Thanks.
Could we expand the list of third party advantages as follows?

I included a lot of your suggestions. Some of them I classified as arguments rather than clear cut things that DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract will get. I made a separate list of arguments. Most of them are kinda coming off as rhetorical questions. We should work on refining them. Presentation and rhetoric is good PR but it won't convince the talented DAC developers we are looking for. We both a list of advantages as well as excellent arguments worded precisely and matter-of-factly that will catch even the most seasoned talents off-guard. These guys know what the alternatives are, and if the list isn't compelling we'll lose our young.

This thread is descriptive but it should also motivate you guys to come up with further ideas to help make the list and arguments ever more compelling. For instance, as soon as fuznuts gets his show going, we can add that to the list. If there's a community purse for helping aspiring DAC developers then we can add that to the list. And so on.

I agree.  Talk of a license just motivates folks to look for valid exceptions and loopholes.

Should I reword the title and mention of the Bitshares Social Contract? I'll reword it to consensus for now. I recall that being used before.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 10:55:29 PM by CLains »
Vote for BTS-2 witness: spectral (1.6.30)

Follow https://steemit.com/@clains

bitbro

  • Guest
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2014, 11:04:41 PM »
Sticky


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline bytemaster

Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 03:01:22 AM »
I am very happy to see the positive direction the discussion on this forum has taken.    Up until recently most people were waiting for us to deliver everything and answer everything.  Being only a small team fending off 1000's of users posting comments and questions can be overwhelming and hinder progress.  Posts like this are much appreciated.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline fuzzy

Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 05:57:40 AM »
On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus

Each time a new DAC honors the Bitshares Social Consensus, the Bitshares AGS and PTS holders are happy since they receive a fifth or more stake in the new DAC. Each time Invictus launches a new DAC, they honor the Bitshares Social Consensusand give the Bitshares AGS and PTS holders a fifth or more stake the new DAC.

Why does Invictus do this?
Because Invictus promised to do so in exchange for the funding provided through AGS and PTS. In addition, Invictus are themselves holders of AGS and PTS, so they have incentive to follow through.

Why would anyone else do this?

Through funding Invictus has come into possession of significant funds. This allows them to create an attractive infrastructure that promises all young and aspiring DAC creators a slice of heaven if they commit to the Bitshares Social Consensus.

How does Invictus and the AGS/PTS holders promise young and aspiring DAC creators a slice of heaven?

So far there have been a number of suggestions.

1. Prizes, Bounties and Stipends
-- Stan's idea of a Shark Tank-like competition with a panel of judges where the prize is incubation, hosting, consultation support and promotion, and maybe stipends and cash?
-- Bounties for Bitshares Social Consensus honoring DACs, such as that suggested by Adam
-- Stipends to cover legal fees, travel/stay at incubator, etc,

2. Hosting and Incubation
-- Work in one of the incubators,
-- Free fully equipped office space,
-- Participate in presentations and meetings,
-- Interact with the Invictus team,

3. Consultation and Support
-- Legal, accounting, financial and tax support,
-- Forum and web site support,
-- Consulting with Dan Larimer and the team of innovators,

4. Promotion
-- Promotional support integrated with the global marketing campaign,
-- Help with reputation on the forum and through the Bitshares website,
-- Opportunities to speak at a major conference,

5. Community
-- Ready-built community - lots of informed eyeballs on your idea and help with refining it.
-- Attract PTS holders as a pre-selected informed group that have proven they won't mine and dump.
--  Attract AGS donors as a pre-selected informed group that have proven they will invest in good ideas.

6. General
-- Get help from Invictus and the AGS/PTS holders in removing whatever obstacles stand in your way.

Arguments for young and aspiring DAC creators to honor the Bitshares Social Consensus

So far there have been a number of arguments.

-- What's the alternative? Many would suggest you give it *ALL* away to mostly fly-by-night mine-and-dumpers, or that you keep it to sell, in which case you could be accused of transmitting money, offering securities, or pre-mining.

-- Of all the fair share distribution models that have been tried, the PTS/AGS combination has perhaps been the most successfully fair funding campaign.

-- What happens when your DAC suddenly has multiple competitors cloning it and looking for ways to overcome its first mover advantage? Think ahead and attach yourself to a large, fair, open and prosperous community.

-- With as little as 20% to the AGS/PTS holders there is still as much as 80% left for whatever you desire. One option is to do an AGS-style fundraiser where people donate crypto to your cause for a stake in your DAC.

Brilliant CLains...once again, above reproach.
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline maqifrnswa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 02:38:23 PM »
The Social contract is thus far optional

it is not optional if you fork bitshares code
https://github.com/InvictusInnovations/BitShares/blob/master/LICENSE.md

if you create your own 3rd party DAC, with no bitshares code, then yes it is optional - but you get the above listed benefits if you choose to distribute according to the SC.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:40:27 PM by maqifrnswa »
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline fuzzy

Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Consensus
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 07:36:21 AM »
 +5%
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline barwizi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • Noirbits, NoirShares, NoirEx.....lol, noir anyone?
    • View Profile
    • Noirbitstalk.org
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 10:38:51 AM »
The Social contract is thus far optional

it is not optional if you fork bitshares code
https://github.com/InvictusInnovations/BitShares/blob/master/LICENSE.md

if you create your own 3rd party DAC, with no bitshares code, then yes it is optional - but you get the above listed benefits if you choose to distribute according to the SC.

the sheer percentages in question are alarming for those who know what they are doing and study the situation. parse the blockchain, tell me if honouring the SC works for the dev and little people or the huge holders? most have less than 500 PTS, but 1% of the community holds 70% of the total, so basically honouring the SC is more about honouring that 1%., this translates as paying homage to the big-boys. LOL, welcome to crypto-anarchy.





And another thing to think about....just who are you going to prosecute when the DAC is released?

1) They may reside in territories that could give a hoot about software licenses.
2) They could just open an account, release the DAC, make sure it works and disappear.
3) Lol, it could be me and i'd tell you all the legal potholes, and lead you right into them.
--Bar--  PiNEJGUv4AZVZkLuF6hV4xwbYTRp5etWWJ

The magical land of crypto, no freebies people.

Offline maqifrnswa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 11:17:07 AM »
The Social contract is thus far optional

it is not optional if you fork bitshares code
https://github.com/InvictusInnovations/BitShares/blob/master/LICENSE.md

if you create your own 3rd party DAC, with no bitshares code, then yes it is optional - but you get the above listed benefits if you choose to distribute according to the SC.

the sheer percentages in question are alarming for those who know what they are doing and study the situation. parse the blockchain, tell me if honouring the SC works for the dev and little people or the huge holders? most have less than 500 PTS, but 1% of the community holds 70% of the total, so basically honouring the SC is more about honouring that 1%., this translates as paying homage to the big-boys. LOL, welcome to crypto-anarchy.





And another thing to think about....just who are you going to prosecute when the DAC is released?

1) They may reside in territories that could give a hoot about software licenses.
2) They could just open an account, release the DAC, make sure it works and disappear.
3) Lol, it could be me and i'd tell you all the legal potholes, and lead you right into them.

That's a very good point. I'd hope the market would reject a DAC with no support, posted anonymously from an unknown jurisdiction that violated an open source license to fork code and give its premine to unknown people. But people have fallen for worse Bitcoin investments. (Although, ironically I just described satoshi minus the illegitimate forking and lack of support, initially).
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline fuzzy

Re: On spawning DACs honoring the Bitshares Social Contract
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 11:52:50 AM »


And another thing to think about....just who are you going to prosecute when the DAC is released?

1) They may reside in territories that could give a hoot about software licenses.
2) They could just open an account, release the DAC, make sure it works and disappear.
3) Lol, it could be me and i'd tell you all the legal potholes, and lead you right into them.

Well in a Martial Law kind of scenario, in response to a World War (hot or cold) and subsequent collapse in the value of numerous (if not all) fiat currencies, the BitCoin-Loving demographic would be just small enough to easily be demonized.  Along with NSA data that has already been collected on nearly everyone, governments could (potentially) turn the public against users of the currencies.  Politicians and the Prison Industrial Complex Lobbyists alike would blame us "digital anarchists" for the devaluation of their nation's destroyed currencies.  This would be done to divert from the true problem: that of corrupt incentive structures created by their own central banking structures and political class.  Instead on anyone "carrying bitcoins" could be the enemy and it would be a good way to help legitimize internet surveillance.  Let's not forget the Red Scare, Japanese Internment Camps, the Holocaust...just to name a few...a society's sheeple will believe anything during a currency crisis as long as it maintains the status quo for them.

It is quite obvious the general public is still very much in the dark about the current debt and death paradigm much less Bitcoin and the consensus revolution that follows.  If governments and cartels can find a way to justify the imprisoning of 100's of thousands of Marijuana Users each year, how can the BitCoin Community think it is not possible for them too?  And before anyone says "Bitcoin users are far too technical to be caught" remember not everyone has been here from the beginning like most of us, watching this entire manifestation develop.  And most users do not follow even close to best practices with regard to guarding their own privacy.

That is why it is so important that initially these things are created as a public service that lifts all boats rather than pump and dump schemes (like 94.56% of all altcoins--pulling that percentage out of my ass)?  The herd is not rational and is driven by greed and fear...and right now the herd knows nothing about Bitcoin but "MtGox".
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

 

Google+