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Offline DonJoe

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Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« on: May 21, 2014, 01:56:07 PM »

1. I agree DPOS is necessary for PTS, why can't you just hard fork PTS and keep using the PTS name instead of PTS2? Leaving both PTS and PTS2 in the market is like leaving one of your child in the wild wide and die. Just announce a client hard fork and do the mapping. PTS miner will disappear and everyone upgrade their client.

2. Giving the rest PTS to marketing??? LOL. Let's look what the marketing team has done with AGS fund (below are what I found with a quick glance of the spending spreadsheet).

To me, all of these spending is not clear. Look what mastercoin foundation is doing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtCyUJvk_IyNdGpVcnpBN2tOczFmbVRnck5TWjZuRFE&usp=sharing#gid=0

After 5 months marketing, BTS still remain unknown to lots of BTCers. I3 need to think of the problem instead of taking every cent from community. PTS used to be the top 5 in marketcap at the end of last year and there were no marketing. After DPOS PTS, GIVE the remaining PTS to DEVELOPERS!!! Good product is the best marketing. And we really should change the AGS spending to bounty based instead of salary based (except developers). What I see is 5 core dev working really hard day and night, with another 20 ppl sucking AGS money for doing little thing.

Offline Amazon

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 03:03:04 PM »
Salary is necessary to attract people to join bitshares project full time, it is lots of sacrifice.

We may need a monthly statement to let shareholders know how much balance we have in AGS (BTC, PTS, dollars).
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Offline DonJoe

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 04:32:09 PM »
Salary is necessary to attract people to join bitshares project full time, it is lots of sacrifice.

We may need a monthly statement to let shareholders know how much balance we have in AGS (BTC, PTS, dollars).

Sacrifice does not mean he is capable to finish the job. Arlen got 1327PTS in April, what is his job. I found his position is software VP, but I can't find a single line from him in Github. As a shareholder, I can't vote to reduce the salary of Brian, Arlen and firing the mysterious Poland team, neither can I increase the compensation to BM, unlimited_power and hackfisher, who are actually coding....

Offline DonJoe

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 04:39:35 PM »
I have been following the project since Oct last year and was mining from day 1 on Nov. 5th. After half and year, I saw I3 is veryvery good in collecting money and all the product is PTS and a large forum. And now you want to take the other 360k PTS? Are you short of funding to travel to St. Martin?? :-[ Can anyone tell me who is using the AGS money travel to St. Martin??? Why the current AGS funding is spending on worthless website refinement and unnecessary staff but not paying to Peter Todd or Sergio to review the code and suggestion?

PTS is really slow now because the difficulty is not adjusted every block. It is design flaw, not the fault of miner. I can only see all the miners now are very loyal and should be rewarded. Other coins are talking pre-mine from genesis block, but I3 is taking it at the end. Sounds bad, but truth, isn't it?

Offline sudo

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 05:29:40 PM »
1. I agree DPOS is necessary for PTS, why can't you just hard fork PTS and keep using the PTS name instead of PTS2? Leaving both PTS and PTS2 in the market is like leaving one of your child in the wild wide and die. Just announce a client hard fork and do the mapping. PTS miner will disappear and everyone upgrade their client.

2. Giving the rest PTS to marketing??? LOL. Let's look what the marketing team has done with AGS fund (below are what I found with a quick glance of the spending spreadsheet).

To me, all of these spending is not clear. Look what mastercoin foundation is doing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtCyUJvk_IyNdGpVcnpBN2tOczFmbVRnck5TWjZuRFE&usp=sharing#gid=0

After 5 months marketing, BTS still remain unknown to lots of BTCers. I3 need to think of the problem instead of taking every cent from community. PTS used to be the top 5 in marketcap at the end of last year and there were no marketing. After DPOS PTS, GIVE the remaining PTS to DEVELOPERS!!! Good product is the best marketing. And we really should change the AGS spending to bounty based instead of salary based (except developers). What I see is 5 core dev working really hard day and night, with another 20 ppl sucking AGS money for doing little thing.

 +5% +10086

Offline Stan

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 05:32:25 PM »
I have been following the project since Oct last year and was mining from day 1 on Nov. 5th. After half and year, I saw I3 is veryvery good in collecting money and all the product is PTS and a large forum. And now you want to take the other 360k PTS? Are you short of funding to travel to St. Martin?? :-[ Can anyone tell me who is using the AGS money travel to St. Martin??? Why the current AGS funding is spending on worthless website refinement and unnecessary staff but not paying to Peter Todd or Sergio to review the code and suggestion?

PTS is really slow now because the difficulty is not adjusted every block. It is design flaw, not the fault of miner. I can only see all the miners now are very loyal and should be rewarded. Other coins are talking pre-mine from genesis block, but I3 is taking it at the end. Sounds bad, but truth, isn't it?

1. Our executive team has been invited to attend a meeting of venture capitalists in St Martin who indicated an interest in funding the BitShares ecosystem.  They are even reimbursing many of the expenses.

2.  PTS was based on BTC code.  This code has the design flaw you mention.  This is why we propose to upgrade to a DPOS variant.

3.  Upgrading to DPOS frees up the money previously allocated for miners which will no longer be needed.  This has to go somewhere, even by default.  That is what we are discussing with this community.

4.  We pay for as much time as Sergio is able to give us.

5.  Giving away crypto-assets via various spigot mechanisms is common.  We are proposing targeted give-aways for which there are hundreds of industry examples.

6.  These are companies, not currencies - there is no stigma to companies figuring out their share allocations in advance and reserving some shares for future needs.  The term pre-mining has no meaning in this domain.





Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline JoeyD

Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 05:50:52 PM »
1. I agree DPOS is necessary for PTS, why can't you just hard fork PTS and keep using the PTS name instead of PTS2? Leaving both PTS and PTS2 in the market is like leaving one of your child in the wild wide and die. Just announce a client hard fork and do the mapping. PTS miner will disappear and everyone upgrade their client.

This is even more impossible to do than it is for MS to force you to use a specific version of windows. You can't just "hard-fork" and magically force separate individually acting people to do what you want. Also the differences between pts and the new dpos-pts are too big to just be able to upgrade. The snapshot plus launch of completely new version really does seem to be one of the cleanest and quickest solutions, but that does not give Invictus any power over your choices or those of anyone else.

Offline DonJoe

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 06:35:11 PM »
I agree the PTS should be updated, my point is why not just keep using PTS instead of PTS2.

Stan, thank for reply. Could you please also tell me:

  • What happened to invictus.io?
  • Would you like to provide a list of current payroll in AGS? I know everyone can check the spreadsheet, but I think the shareholders/donators deserve to see an official list. Do you agree or not?
  • Why are we still paying 100btc per month to Poland team? Is it a long term contract? If they fail to finish Keyhotee in 5 years, they can keep getting 100BTC/month?
  • Who is in charge of the website development? After spending $22k, no one step out and take the responsibility? What if it happen again?
  • What is the plan of the 360k PTS? Using it for promoting is not an answer, just like you say spending AGS for ecosystem, but we see nothing.


Offline Stan

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 06:37:07 PM »
1. I agree DPOS is necessary for PTS, why can't you just hard fork PTS and keep using the PTS name instead of PTS2? Leaving both PTS and PTS2 in the market is like leaving one of your child in the wild wide and die. Just announce a client hard fork and do the mapping. PTS miner will disappear and everyone upgrade their client.

2. Giving the rest PTS to marketing??? LOL. Let's look what the marketing team has done with AGS fund (below are what I found with a quick glance of the spending spreadsheet).

To me, all of these spending is not clear. Look what mastercoin foundation is doing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtCyUJvk_IyNdGpVcnpBN2tOczFmbVRnck5TWjZuRFE&usp=sharing#gid=0

After 5 months marketing, BTS still remain unknown to lots of BTCers. I3 need to think of the problem instead of taking every cent from community. PTS used to be the top 5 in marketcap at the end of last year and there were no marketing. After DPOS PTS, GIVE the remaining PTS to DEVELOPERS!!! Good product is the best marketing. And we really should change the AGS spending to bounty based instead of salary based (except developers). What I see is 5 core dev working really hard day and night, with another 20 ppl sucking AGS money for doing little thing.

This is great!  We love it when someone takes the time to ask questions line this.  Perhaps others were wondering the same thing, so lets dig in and clear these up.

1.  JoeyD just explained that very well.  We have to release a new chain, its a completely new code base.  That raises the challenge of how to switch over without having people confuse the old chain and the new chain.  For the purpose of this forum discussion, I used PTS and PTS2 so we can all keep them straight.  Now its just a question of devising the best way to get everyone to voluntarily switch.  Working with the exchanges to swap them out is a powerful aid.  Announcing that we are going to honor the new chain is another.  We will do everything we can think of to get the word out.  Then, if the majority of the market wants to overrule us and keep the old PTS they can do so.    We offer a new product.  The market decides.

2.  The website needs to meet many needs.  We pick a developer, see what they come up with, and react to what we see.  I think each iteration is getting better, but there are many different groups we need to reach.  What sells to the public may not be what sells to investors or hard-core crypto-geeks.  BM is very demanding and particular about how things are done.  I understand that Steve Jobs was that way too.  (Only Steve didn't have the raw ability to do things himself) So sometimes BM just creates what he wants overnight and shows it to us.  That's how he thinks best.  We get used to it.

3.  Yes, no doubt there will someday be version 60 of the website.   :)

4.  Dan, Brian, and I have been invited to make two presentations to a conference of investors who have chosen to hold their meeting in St Martin.  They are reimbursing many of our expenses which is certainly a good sign.  They have also offered a briefing on special purpose business jurisdictions that may be helpful for certain kinds of businesses based in the Caribbean.

5.  We trusted Super 3, he turned out to be an opportunist and grabbed .io for his own purposes.  Stuff happens.

6.  Pam, Angelina, and I meet regularly to improve our accounting documentation.  We plan a cleaner set of spreadsheets as soon as we can get them polished.  Thanks for the examples others are using, I'll study them.

7.  It takes many skills to run a company.  We post what the developers are doing because that is of general interest.  Few want to hear about what accountants, and admin, and managers, and lawyers are doing, but that takes a lot of time behind the scenes.  Since our whole lives are dedicated to making BitShares a success, we are highly motivated to do everything carefully and efficiently - making resources last as long as possible.  At all times we are applying these resources the best we know how.  Fund raising will need to continue because we hope to be at this for a very long time and that is the only way we can make it possible for people to work for us full time.   

8.  "Give the PTS to developers."  "Don't use it for salaries."  Hmmm.  You can glance across the forum and see many differing opinions about what to do.  You can talk to the passengers on a ship and hear many different opinions about where the ship should sail - but the captain is responsible for plotting the route.  He tries to keep the passengers happy so they won't get off the boat.  But he is also responsible for their comfort and safety - a thankless job.

9.  We have promised to build an industry.  No one else is attempting that.  It is far more complicated than you can possibly imagine.  To those who donated, we promised to use them to advance that industry to the very best of our ability.  Those who are patient will still be here with us to reap the rewards.   

 :)







Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 06:41:50 PM »
+5%
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline mint chocolate chip

Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 06:46:00 PM »
Have them venture their capital here 1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc

Offline Stan

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 06:53:57 PM »
I agree the PTS should be updated, my point is why not just keep using PTS instead of PTS2.

Stan, thank for reply. Could you please also tell me:

  • What happened to invictus.io?

Super 3 offered it for our use and then wanted too much for it.  We declined.  He sold to someone else.

  • Would you like to provide a list of current payroll in AGS? I know everyone can check the spreadsheet, but I think the shareholders/donators deserve to see an official list. Do you agree or not?
It's no secret.  I'll look into a better way to document it clearly.  Remember that some employees and contractors demand more privacy and we respect that.

  • Why are we still paying 100btc per month to Poland team? Is it a long term contract? If they fail to finish Keyhotee in 5 years, they can keep getting 100BTC/month?

We stopped work on Keyhotee and pulled some of the people onto BitShares XT where they have been very productive.  Keyhotee will resume, when the value of our holdings recovers.  Right now the responsible thing to do is to wait for all those pregnant PTS to have babies!

  • Who is in charge of the website development? After spending $22k, no one step out and take the responsibility? What if it happen again?

Brian is in charge of the website.  He has a tough job trying to make it meet all the purposes we demand of him.  WildWex is lending his skills as well.  It is an iterative process.

  • What is the plan of the 360k PTS? Using it for promoting is not an answer, just like you say spending AGS for ecosystem, but we see nothing.

I have attempted to start a forum discussion on this topic.  I have posted a list of some of the ideas I've heard over the past few months.  My personal favorite is the viral technique used by Elon Musk - and Keyhotee is the perfect vehicle for it.  That of course requires that we get some polish on Keyhotee.


You should read his story sometime - we are now where he has been many times.
Hopefully we will handle the rough waters as well as he did.


[/list]
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Offline Stan

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 07:00:15 PM »
Have them venture their capital here 1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc

Indeed.   :)

Unfortunately, the meeting is in July.
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Offline Amazon

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Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 07:00:30 PM »

 So sometimes BM just creates what he wants overnight and shows it to us.  That's how he thinks best.  We get used to it.


Please keep BM healthy, push him to bed if necessary  :'(
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Offline JoeyD

Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 07:28:06 PM »
It might also be a nice idea to put some things into perspective. I've helped organized parties that only lasted a single evening, had the use of free labour, infrastructure and facilities, cut costs and corners wherever we could and it still burnt through more than 3 times the 15% PTS-marketcap that the people here are pissed off about.

So in my experience 1 million dollars is not enough for a single dinner-party, which makes it look almost like a joke as a marketing fund. I also don't think the AGS-fund represents a very impressive amount of money, but then again I used to work for one of the biggest employers in the country (I'm not from the US btw.)

 

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