Clarifications about BTS X plan

[toast]

Locking this thread because the OP has inaccurate / "what should we do" / speculative content and I don't want to confuse newbies further... if someone has questions make another topic or contact me directly.

[GaltReport]

At some point I am going to have to devote myself to the study of clarity among the masses of people that are half-paying attention.   1000's of options is a real mess, people say they want choices, but tend to choose Apple which is famous for removing choices.    People say they want freedom, but then choose tyranny to avoid having to think for themselves.

Understanding this is likely as important as economics and is something we have clearly not mastered.

One chain that upgrades over time is clearly the most simple approach you can have.

Got that one right my friend!!

[Shentist]

1. btsx is the endproduct without marketfunctions
2. yes
3. no need to clain XT, just install the btsx client an import your pts wallet.dat

[isza]

I did have some PTS on Feb 28.

• Where are we exactly on the snapshot graph? Has BitShares X already come out, or only BitShares XT?
• Something appears as BTSX on BTER. Is that really BitShares X or is it BitShares XT? [corrected a typo]
• Do I need to claim my BitShares XT in order to possess BitShares X, or can I just wait?

[Gentso1]

I agree with the number of brand new accounts and the fact that they are all negative but whats the point, you can't buy XTS yet........

But you can spread Fear such that on launch .. weak handed investors sell their stake low

So we don't want weak handed investor's to sell low :-\? Because I kinda like buying low.

[xeroc]

Can someone clarify exact function of the chains BTSXI and BTSXV?

These are just arbitrary name for chains that might come in a few months and trades some bitAssets

let's just say something like

BTSXI  -- trades fastfood companies (i.e., MacDo, BurgerKing, KFC, Sushi Guys .. etc)
BTSXV -- trades cosmetica (i.e., ehm .. I am a tech guy .. no idea .. pick some!)

Might be completely different ones!

[pgbit]

Can someone clarify exact function of the chains BTSXI and BTSXV?

[xeroc]

"propaganda campaign"

good point .. let's stick with that :)

[cygnify]

.

[Ggozzo]

There are too many BTS investors can't read or understand English. no matter how many times you explaining to them...

let me try once more, pay attention please:

For BTS investors. you will be honored 100% of future banking &financing related DACs, which include bts x xi xii xiii..... plus other banking and financing related DACs. for example , If 3i copied the code of NXT or XCP. the 100% of new coins created will be distributed to BTS holders.
(why no reservation for DEV team ? because 3i own some bts as well, from your donated before feb 28. So we are on the same boat :)


3i is a long sight company, it will have more product which not only restricted in banking and financing field . such as 3i music, 3i insurance. For these non finaning related DACs , at least of 10% will be honored to PTS and AGS holders.

I find Chinese bts community become really upset today.  I ask for any reason, but nobody can explain to me.  i think 80% of this nonsense due to language barrier and 20% is because under education.

i give up to explain these to my Chinese people. they prefer screaming rather than thinking with their own brain.

+5 .. nice summary ..

I think there might be market manipulation ongoing in order to get hands on cheap XTS ... most FUD is/was created by newbies on the forum with accounts created the last few days ..

There is no market yet.

There is also no market manipulation at all! unless you hack a financal institute .. every other market manipulation happens in the minds of weak-handed .. steered by strong-handed ..
and this steering can be done well before a product is at place .. let's call it negative marketing.. however ,, negative PR seems to also we worth something!

If you guys continue with your FUD and I cannot stop weak-handed to sell their stake I can be happy with that because I can buy more! :)
However I cannot support market manipulation!

You and I have very different definitions of Market Manipulation. Since there is no market, I have to conclude that you are wrong and are intending to convey the defintion of a "propaganda campaign" or "PSYOPS".

This is off topic to the thread.

[jae208]

At some point I am going to have to devote myself to the study of clarity among the masses of people that are half-paying attention.   1000's of options is a real mess, people say they want choices, but tend to choose Apple which is famous for removing choices.    People say they want freedom, but then choose tyranny to avoid having to think for themselves.

Understanding this is likely as important as economics and is something we have clearly not mastered.

One chain that upgrades over time is clearly the most simple approach you can have.

The issue may be that economics is a 'social science' based on a series of assumptions. For instance, we are all human and humans unfortunately aren't very rational. Once we merge with machines that may change. People generally disagree for a number of reasons

Not having access to the same information
Not having the same level of reasoning
Irrational preconceptions learned such as religion, pseudoscience, etc

Perhaps, a better economics understanding would come from the interdisciplinary field of Econophysics.   I recently saw an episode of Through the Wormhole titled, "Is poverty genetic" and sometime through the show Morgan Freeman was talking to a researcher of Econophysics and he was describing how the distribution of money behaves like the distribution of gas molecules at different temperatures and how the laws of thermal dynamics help predict the distribution. Interesting stuff.

[xeroc]

There are too many BTS investors can't read or understand English. no matter how many times you explaining to them...

let me try once more, pay attention please:

For BTS investors. you will be honored 100% of future banking &financing related DACs, which include bts x xi xii xiii..... plus other banking and financing related DACs. for example , If 3i copied the code of NXT or XCP. the 100% of new coins created will be distributed to BTS holders.
(why no reservation for DEV team ? because 3i own some bts as well, from your donated before feb 28. So we are on the same boat :)


3i is a long sight company, it will have more product which not only restricted in banking and financing field . such as 3i music, 3i insurance. For these non finaning related DACs , at least of 10% will be honored to PTS and AGS holders.

I find Chinese bts community become really upset today.  I ask for any reason, but nobody can explain to me.  i think 80% of this nonsense due to language barrier and 20% is because under education.

i give up to explain these to my Chinese people. they prefer screaming rather than thinking with their own brain.

+5 .. nice summary ..

I think there might be market manipulation ongoing in order to get hands on cheap XTS ... most FUD is/was created by newbies on the forum with accounts created the last few days ..

There is no market yet.

There is also no market manipulation at all! unless you hack a financal institute .. every other market manipulation happens in the minds of weak-handed .. steered by strong-handed ..
and this steering can be done well before a product is at place .. let's call it negative marketing.. however ,, negative PR seems to also we worth something!

If you guys continue with your FUD and I cannot stop weak-handed to sell their stake I can be happy with that because I can buy more! :)
However I cannot support market manipulation!

[Ggozzo]

There are too many BTS investors can't read or understand English. no matter how many times you explaining to them...

let me try once more, pay attention please:

For BTS investors. you will be honored 100% of future banking &financing related DACs, which include bts x xi xii xiii..... plus other banking and financing related DACs. for example , If 3i copied the code of NXT or XCP. the 100% of new coins created will be distributed to BTS holders.
(why no reservation for DEV team ? because 3i own some bts as well, from your donated before feb 28. So we are on the same boat :)


3i is a long sight company, it will have more product which not only restricted in banking and financing field . such as 3i music, 3i insurance. For these non finaning related DACs , at least of 10% will be honored to PTS and AGS holders.

I find Chinese bts community become really upset today.  I ask for any reason, but nobody can explain to me.  i think 80% of this nonsense due to language barrier and 20% is because under education.

i give up to explain these to my Chinese people. they prefer screaming rather than thinking with their own brain.

+5 .. nice summary ..

I think there might be market manipulation ongoing in order to get hands on cheap XTS ... most FUD is/was created by newbies on the forum with accounts created the last few days ..

There is no market yet.

[xeroc]

I agree with the number of brand new accounts and the fact that they are all negative but whats the point, you can't buy XTS yet........

But you can spread Fear such that on launch .. weak handed investors sell their stake low

[Gentso1]

[/quote]
+5 .. nice summary ..

I think there might be market manipulation ongoing in order to get hands on cheap XTS ... most FUD is/was created by newbies on the forum with accounts created the last few days ..
[/quote]

I agree with the number of brand new accounts and the fact that they are all negative but whats the point, you can't buy XTS yet........ 

[liondani]

I think there might be market manipulation ongoing in order to get hands on cheap XTS ... most FUD is/was created by newbies on the forum with accounts created the last few days ..

+5% +5% +5%

[xeroc]

There are too many BTS investors can't read or understand English. no matter how many times you explaining to them...

let me try once more, pay attention please:

For BTS investors. you will be honored 100% of future banking &financing related DACs, which include bts x xi xii xiii..... plus other banking and financing related DACs. for example , If 3i copied the code of NXT or XCP. the 100% of new coins created will be distributed to BTS holders.
(why no reservation for DEV team ? because 3i own some bts as well, from your donated before feb 28. So we are on the same boat :)


3i is a long sight company, it will have more product which not only restricted in banking and financing field . such as 3i music, 3i insurance. For these non finaning related DACs , at least of 10% will be honored to PTS and AGS holders.

I find Chinese bts community become really upset today.  I ask for any reason, but nobody can explain to me.  i think 80% of this nonsense due to language barrier and 20% is because under education.

i give up to explain these to my Chinese people. they prefer screaming rather than thinking with their own brain.

+5 .. nice summary ..

I think there might be market manipulation ongoing in order to get hands on cheap XTS ... most FUD is/was created by newbies on the forum with accounts created the last few days ..

[neil54321]

There are too many BTS investors can't read or understand English. no matter how many times you explaining to them...

let me try once more, pay attention please:

For BTS investors. you will be honored 100% of future banking &financing related DACs, which include bts x xi xii xiii..... plus other banking and financing related DACs. for example , If 3i copied the code of NXT or XCP. the 100% of new coins created will be distributed to BTS holders.
(why no reservation for DEV team ? because 3i own many bts as well. equals to your pts donated before feb 28 multiple by 1.3 . So we are on the same boat :)


3i is a long sight company, it will have more product which not only restricted in banking and financing field . such as 3i music, 3i insurance. For these non finaning related DACs , at least of 10% will be honored to PTS and AGS holders.

I find Chinese bts community become really upset today.  I ask for any reason, but nobody can explain to me.  i think 80% of this nonsense due to language barrier and 20% is because under education.

i give up to explain these to my Chinese people. they prefer screaming rather than thinking with their own brain.

[Stan]

3) BitShares XT will be the snapshot target for *all* subsequent BitShares X DACs. These won't appear until long after everyone understands BTS X.

2 things

1 - See above quote, does this change the future deliverables to PTS or AGS at all?  It seems like this is transferring future value to BTS X away from PTS and AGS, right?

As we described in the March newsletter, BTS XT is a proto-DAC which allows people to invest in one sector of the BitShares industry like PTS does for the entire rest of the industry.  Because it honors PTS/AGS 50/50, honoring it is the "grandfather clause" way to fulfill the Social Consensus - while indirectly having the side effect of making AGS liquid for any sector that adopts this optional clause.  Meanwhile, PTS and AGS continue to represent the entry point for all other DACs or protoDACs outside the X sector.

2 - If no dilution for delegate pay, where is that coming from?

Well, (don't tell anybody, but you may have been right), we should have reserved some of XT %'s for "future purposes" and hence don't have it reserved now to help promote that chain in any of the ways we have since invented.  So, without dilution, delegates will have to settle for a shares of transaction fees.  That may be ok, because being a delegate for the first full scale BitShares X protoDAC may be enough of an honor itself to motivate strong candidates until transaction income becomes sufficient.  It does seem like a showcase opportunity to build a reputation that makes you a more competitive candidate for other DACs where being a delegate carries greater responsibilities and compensation.  The first DAC that goes to the moon because it has the fittest Darwin-selected delegates working hard to promote it will set the ultimate trend.  I don't think it will be long before someone tries it.  :)

[tonyk]

Explain like I'm 5 version:   ....

1) BitShares XT will launch without market functionality  but will be upgraded to a full-featured BitShares X DAC.
It will have a small number of BitAssets, probably USD, GLD, and BTC.
.....

Am I again the most stupid here (or 4 year old not 5), that does not get how the bolded part works? :'(

[AdamBLevine]

3) BitShares XT will be the snapshot target for *all* subsequent BitShares X DACs. These won't appear until long after everyone understands BTS X.

2 things

1 - See above quote, does this change the future deliverables to PTS or AGS at all?  It seems like this is transferring future value to BTS X away from PTS and AGS, right?

2 - If no dillution for delegate pay, where is that coming from?

[werneo]

Some recent posts by BM have caused a bit of panic. I just talked to him and we came up with a clearer game plan which I think this will make everyone happy.


Explain like I'm 5 version:   XT is now what most people probably think BitShares X is. Buy XT, have decentralized exchange. No dilution.


1) BitShares XT will launch without market functionality but will be upgraded to a full-featured BitShares X DAC. It will have a small number of BitAssets, probably USD, GLD, and BTC.

2) BitShares XT will be 50/50 with no dilution for delegate pay.

3) BitShares XT will be the snapshot target for *all* subsequent BitShares X DACs. These won't appear until long after everyone understands BTS X.

For example, BitShares XCC might trade cryptocurrency, XFC might trade fiat currency, XCM might trade commodities, etc.
These will all share *some* BitAssets and have cross-chain trading. This was how it was described in the whitepaper back in fall 2013. What a lot of people think of as "the one BitShares X" is actually a collection of X chains that have cross-chain trading of shared bitassets. The idea is that once you have BitUSD it doesn't matter which chain is backing it.

4) I3 will focus almost exclusively on XT for a long time. Anyone who launches the subsequent chains will honor XT and pull upgrades to XT onto their chains.

Notice that:
* There was never a plan to have one monolithic "BitShares X" chain, not even back in november. Heck, there's even a sticky at the top of this forum that describes this: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2940.0
* It was always the case that any chain could be forked with different parameters at any time. Now that XT will be a real bts X chain with bitassets, this is no different from BM having said "hey, our clones would probably do better if they dilute their shares to pay the delegates".

+5%

Toast for CEO.

[Stan]

And you still do  .. unless you sell your BitShares XT.

The key word is 100%.
If I have 1% xts before bitshare xt→bitshares x, but after the transformation, I only get 0.2% bts in bitshares x.
Does this possibility exist?
If things like this, I can accepet it only in one reason.The bitshares xt have become mature enough, the price of xts is enough to make the early investor get their cost back.

Agree.....still 1% or not?simple question,please.

just a"yes or no"question

是的 Yes.   :)

[toast]

I.e. no automatic destruction or burning of fees. ...

No, fees are still destroyed. The delegates get a fixed pay equal to transaction fees (and no other fees) at max volume.

[tonyk]

I.e. no automatic destruction or burning of fees. ...

Since when???

[xeroc]

I.e. no automatic destruction or burning of fees. ...

[bytemaster]

2) BitShares XT will be 50/50 with no dilution for delegate pay.

What does this mean, exactly?

It means the share supply will be fixed.

[fluxer555]

2) BitShares XT will be 50/50 with no dilution for delegate pay.

What does this mean, exactly?

[Ggozzo]

Just quit using acronyms or letters. 

Use terms like:

Bitshares XT = Bitshares Test Exchange
Bitshars X = Bitsharss Exchange
Bitshares XO = Bitshares Oil Exchange
Bitshares XCu= Bitshares Copper Exchange    etc............


The Feb. snapshot was for Bitshares Exchange distribution known as BTS to everybody. Since you guys are now calling it things like, Bitshares XTS and XT etc. it confuses people. They/me/we are not sure what the BTS figure over at the Angelshares explorer page means. 

The million dollar questions that will help solve the confusion is:

Is the thing I know as BTS, the same thing as Bitshares XT?
If XT is different than BTS, how do I get XT?
If I participate in XT prior to X, will I be able to acquire or lose some of that BTS distributed from the FEb 28th snap?

[Mako]

And you still do  .. unless you sell your BitShares XT.

The key word is 100%.
If I have 1% xts before bitshare xt→bitshares x, but after the transformation, I only get 0.2% bts in bitshares x.
Does this possibility exist?
If things like this, I can accepet it only in one reason.The bitshares xt have become mature enough, the price of xts is enough to make the early investor get their cost back.

Agree.....still 1% or not?simple question,please.

just a"yes or no"question

[xeroc]

4) I3 will focus almost exclusively on XT for a long time. Anyone who launches the subsequent chains will honor XT and pull upgrades to XT onto their chains.

Don't get your panic ... Just read ..

Where do you think the other percents go to!?? /dev/null?? random addresses? WTF are you guys talking about?!??!

No-one EVER said that the initial distribution will be less than 100% ..

Could all these ****** newbies just shut up and read history, sticky posts and the whitepaper?!?
All this discussions are worth nothing and cost too much time!!!

[deer]

And you still do  .. unless you sell your BitShares XT.

The key word is 100%.
If I have 1% xts before bitshare xt→bitshares x, but after the transformation, I only get 0.2% bts in bitshares x.
Does this possibility exist?
If things like this, I can accepet it only in one reason.The bitshares xt have become mature enough, the price of xts is enough to make the early investor get their cost back.

Agree.....still 1% or not?simple question,please.

[yinchanggong]

And you still do  .. unless you sell your BitShares XT.

The key word is 100%.
If I have 1% xts before bitshare xt→bitshares x, but after the transformation, I only get 0.2% bts in bitshares x.
Does this possibility exist?
If things like this, I can accepet it only in one reason.The bitshares xt have become mature enough, the price of xts is enough to make the early investor get their cost back.

[xeroc]

So the remaining question: How will the official DACs Bitshares X* honor XT ?  100% ? 80% ? 50% ? 20%? 10%?

Only with 100% would make everybody happy, I guess.

yea, we all think we invest in bitshares X. The bitshares xt just a temporary substitute.

And you still do  .. unless you sell your BitShares XT.

[yinchanggong]

So the remaining question: How will the official DACs Bitshares X* honor XT ?  100% ? 80% ? 50% ? 20%? 10%?

Only with 100% would make everybody happy, I guess.

yea, we all think we invest in bitshares X. The bitshares xt just a temporary substitute.


I just want to know when bitshares xt→bitshares x,  100% new bts(in bitshares x) distribution to the owner of xts (in bitshares xt)?

[muse-umum]

So the remaining question: How will the official DACs Bitshares X* honor XT ?  100% ? 80% ? 50% ? 20%? 10%?

Only with 100% would make everybody happy, I guess.

[emski]

It's non of the devs issues to educate the people in a proper way .. its the task of the investor do research BEFORE investing

Anyway .. i see the community failing could and should do better in explaining BitShares ecosystem, BitShares XT and BitShares X to the masses.
However, once the community wrote sth. it's up the the people to READ it.

BTW. this forum has neat feature called 'search'

Though it is wise all the information investor needs to be systematic, conscious and easy to understand. This could be done even removing most of the details about the implementation and other stuff. Just state what problem is solved and how could one use the product. Make sure to include as little details as possible. Those who need technical details will find it anyway.

[xeroc]

At some point I am going to have to devote myself to the study of clarity among the masses of people that are half-paying attention.   1000's of options is a real mess, people say they want choices, but tend to choose Apple which is famous for removing choices.    People say they want freedom, but then choose tyranny to avoid having to think for themselves.

Understanding this is likely as important as economics and is something we have clearly not mastered.

One chain that upgrades over time is clearly the most simple approach you can have.

There is no lazy reader,just lazy writer.

I once guide a  little  ordinary girl in elementary school to install Linux and setup a remote power switch base on mobile phone network .

When you write something ,try to imagine your reader knows nothing about the subject.

And if you can't ? Just do not say anything , ask one of  your employee who knows to do that for you.

It's non of the devs issues to educate the people in a proper way .. its the task of the investor do research BEFORE investing

Anyway .. i see the community failing could and should do better in explaining BitShares ecosystem, BitShares XT and BitShares X to the masses.
However, once the community wrote sth. it's up the the people to READ it.

BTW. this forum has neat feature called 'search'

[betax]

Fantastic I did not know about crosschain trading. So bitusd, bitgold is created in the "main" chain and later on will be used by all chains.

[xeroc]

.. and the name of XT will be "target"?!

Open to interpretation, I suppose. I'm naming it "XT".

Just want to avoid people calling it TESTING which it clearly is not!

[metalallen]

At some point I am going to have to devote myself to the study of clarity among the masses of people that are half-paying attention.   1000's of options is a real mess, people say they want choices, but tend to choose Apple which is famous for removing choices.    People say they want freedom, but then choose tyranny to avoid having to think for themselves.

Understanding this is likely as important as economics and is something we have clearly not mastered.

One chain that upgrades over time is clearly the most simple approach you can have.

BM, don't be frustrated. Contradiction is human nature, especially related to money.
It's late now, have some rest, concentrate to the dryrun test.
A good product worth a Thousand Words.

[toast]

.. and the name of XT will be "target"?!

Open to interpretation, I suppose. I'm naming it "XT".

[toast]

Toast,just try to tell your father\mother\brother\sister\classmate\etc....  this post ,and then ask them if they know exactly  what you're talking about with any confusions.

Then,you would understand why most of us still don't understand.......

Just like : I use Windows XP,sometimes I will use Windows NT4.0,then I switch to Win3.1,but now I'm back to Windows  XP SP3,oh,I have a Windows 7 64bit too.

Haha,Windows is good ,ah ,you guys should use windows .

People: Windows what now ? If I buy Win3.1,do I have Windows or not ?

:'(

I added this, is this better?

Explain like I'm 5 version:   XT is probably what you think BitShares X is. Buy XT, have decentralized exchange. No dilution.

[bytemaster]

At some point I am going to have to devote myself to the study of clarity among the masses of people that are half-paying attention.   1000's of options is a real mess, people say they want choices, but tend to choose Apple which is famous for removing choices.    People say they want freedom, but then choose tyranny to avoid having to think for themselves.

Understanding this is likely as important as economics and is something we have clearly not mastered.

One chain that upgrades over time is clearly the most simple approach you can have. 

[xeroc]

.. and the name of XT will be "target"?!

[toast]

Some recent posts by BM have caused a bit of panic. I just talked to him and we came up with a clearer game plan which I think this will make everyone happy.


Explain like I'm 5 version:   XT is now what most people probably think BitShares X is. Buy XT, have decentralized exchange. No dilution.


1) BitShares XT will launch without market functionality but will be upgraded to a full-featured BitShares X DAC. It will have a small number of BitAssets, probably USD, GLD, and BTC.

2) BitShares XT will be 50/50 with no dilution for delegate pay.

3) BitShares XT will be the snapshot target for *all* subsequent BitShares X DACs. These won't appear until long after everyone understands BTS X.

For example, BitShares XCC might trade cryptocurrency, XFC might trade fiat currency, XCM might trade commodities, etc.
These will all share *some* BitAssets and have cross-chain trading. This was how it was described in the whitepaper back in fall 2013. What a lot of people think of as "the one BitShares X" is actually a collection of X chains that have cross-chain trading of shared bitassets. The idea is that once you have BitUSD it doesn't matter which chain is backing it.

4) I3 will focus almost exclusively on XT for a long time. Anyone who launches the subsequent chains will honor XT and pull upgrades to XT onto their chains.

Notice that:
* There was never a plan to have one monolithic "BitShares X" chain, not even back in november. Heck, there's even a sticky at the top of this forum that describes this: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2940.0
* It was always the case that any chain could be forked with different parameters at any time. Now that XT will be a real bts X chain with bitassets, this is no different from BM having said "hey, our clones would probably do better if they dilute their shares to pay the delegates".