Bitshare's Tee's and hoodies, Open call to have YOUR DAC listed on the back

[Gentso1]

Back on topic.......lol

[Gentso1]

The bounty is gone man. It was clearly stated it was inside Appolo.

Bounty or now bounty, I have posted even before the dry run how the order matching system can be exploited. I cannot prove it, in a dry run or out of it, because you have to be a broker (fill an order for somebody else) or in some other way know about upcoming order. Other than that I do not think there is much to exploit in the order matching. Said system is just a terribly annoying way to do the things and you will hear a lot about it when people start using it for real....

I don't completely understand the matching system tbh. I understand the market pegged asset's and I follow the use of collateral but I don't really have a back round in trading so I will leave my .02cents out of what I barely understand. As long as the team is receptive to change when it is warranted the the platform is properly vetted BEFORE trading of assets I think/hope we will be all right.

What I am trying to understand is how the system can be exploited just by someone acting as a broker. If you have a more in depth explanation I would love to give it a read weather it's here or pm or perhaps a thread you could point me too.

It so not so big of a deal as it sounds, really. BTSX is supposed to prevent front running : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_running by using an order matching system called 'get what you asked for (i.e. not more)'. Well it actually is not preventing it – which is not a big deal because no system as  of now successfully prevents it, afaik.

Here is a thread where I try to explain why it will not be good  experience for customers: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5170.msg67914#msg67914

Let see this with an example. I will use bter as most everybody here is probably familiar with it and their order placing is pretty well done:

Code Select Expand


Sell orders
Price (BTC/BTSX)    Amount(BTSX)
0.0000155 1000
0.0000158 3000
0.0000163 1000


If you click on the third price in bter – your buy order box will be pre- populated with the total amount 5000=(1000+3000+1000) and the max price of 0.0000163. If you do submit this order (as it is pre-populated) you will pay:
(1000*155+3000*158+1000*163)/10^7=0.0792 BTC

In the BTSX "get what you asked for" system submitting the same order you will pay:
5000*163/10^7 = 0.0815 BTC or  ~3% more.
If you want to avoid this you have to submit 3 orders – for 1000@ 0.0000155; 3000@ 0.0000158 and 1000@ 0.0000163  ...
Imagine if you want to buy more and the order book starts with 7 miniscule orders. The result is annoying experience for the customers.

Your bter analogy is great and easy to understand. If what you are saying is indeed true, why would we be doing this.
I am not a day trader but when you place a buy order you want it filled from the top down until is is filled as cheaply as possible.  I don't understand what attack vectors or market manipulation we would be preventing by increasing fees to get orders filled that can be circumvented by creating many small orders.

Maybe this is just one of the things that I won't "get" but in this area I don't see a reason to reinvent the wheel but again my understanding of this is I feel is just barely starting to scratch the surface. Either way thanks for dumbing it down a bit for me as I now understand you point of view.

[tonyk]

But can an intelligent trading interface do this for you automatically? they main difference would then only be that you need to execute and pay fees for 3 trades instead of 1 .. I think this issue can be nicely handled with some extra logic in the user interface

It would be nice. But last I checked, toast did not thought so, mainly because he expects numerous new orders coming every second, as far as I can recall.

That being said I believe it is almost mandatory to have such 'smart order placement' in the wallet, as you suggested!

[xeroc]

But can an intelligent trading interface do this for you automatically? they main difference would then only be that you need to execute and pay fees for 3 trades instead of 1 .. I think this issue can be nicely handled with some extra logic in the user interface

[tonyk]

The bounty is gone man. It was clearly stated it was inside Appolo.

Bounty or now bounty, I have posted even before the dry run how the order matching system can be exploited. I cannot prove it, in a dry run or out of it, because you have to be a broker (fill an order for somebody else) or in some other way know about upcoming order. Other than that I do not think there is much to exploit in the order matching. Said system is just a terribly annoying way to do the things and you will hear a lot about it when people start using it for real....

I don't completely understand the matching system tbh. I understand the market pegged asset's and I follow the use of collateral but I don't really have a back round in trading so I will leave my .02cents out of what I barely understand. As long as the team is receptive to change when it is warranted the the platform is properly vetted BEFORE trading of assets I think/hope we will be all right.

What I am trying to understand is how the system can be exploited just by someone acting as a broker. If you have a more in depth explanation I would love to give it a read weather it's here or pm or perhaps a thread you could point me too.

It so not so big of a deal as it sounds, really. BTSX is supposed to prevent front running : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_running by using an order matching system called 'get what you asked for (i.e. not more)'. Well it actually is not preventing it – which is not a big deal because no system as  of now successfully prevents it, afaik.

Here is a thread where I try to explain why it will not be good  experience for customers: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5170.msg67914#msg67914

Let see this with an example. I will use bter as most everybody here is probably familiar with it and their order placing is pretty well done:

Code Select Expand


Sell orders
Price (BTC/BTSX)    Amount(BTSX)
0.0000155 1000
0.0000158 3000
0.0000163 1000


If you click on the third price in bter – your buy order box will be pre- populated with the total amount 5000=(1000+3000+1000) and the max price of 0.0000163. If you do submit this order (as it is pre-populated) you will pay:
(1000*155+3000*158+1000*163)/10^7=0.0792 BTC

In the BTSX "get what you asked for" system submitting the same order you will pay:
5000*163/10^7 = 0.0815 BTC or  ~3% more.
If you want to avoid this you have to submit 3 orders – for 1000@ 0.0000155; 3000@ 0.0000158 and 1000@ 0.0000163  ...
Imagine if you want to buy more and the order book starts with 7 miniscule orders. The result is annoying experience for the customers.

[Gentso1]

The bounty is gone man. It was clearly stated it was inside Appolo.

Bounty or now bounty, I have posted even before the dry run how the order matching system can be exploited. I cannot prove it, in a dry run or out of it, because you have to be a broker (fill an order for somebody else) or in some other way know about upcoming order. Other than that I do not think there is much to exploit in the order matching. Said system is just a terribly annoying way to do the things and you will hear a lot about it when people start using it for real....

I don't completely understand the matching system tbh. I understand the market pegged asset's and I follow the use of collateral but I don't really have a back round in trading so I will leave my .02cents out of what I barely understand. As long as the team is receptive to change when it is warranted the the platform is properly vetted BEFORE trading of assets I think/hope we will be all right.

What I am trying to understand is how the system can be exploited just by someone acting as a broker. If you have a more in depth explanation I would love to give it a read weather it's here or pm or perhaps a thread you could point me too.

[fuzzy]

Here is a quick mock up. I am not sure how I feel about the font of the qoute but I am open to suggestions and it could easliy be changed to a block style should the community wish it.

Add to the back "and collapsed their monopolies"...

[tonyk]

The bounty is gone man. It was clearly stated it was inside Appolo.

Bounty or now bounty, I have posted even before the dry run how the order matching system can be exploited. I cannot prove it, in a dry run or out of it, because you have to be a broker (fill an order for somebody else) or in some other way know about upcoming order. Other than that I do not think there is much to exploit in the order matching. Said system is just a terribly annoying way to do the things and you will hear a lot about it when people start using it for real....

[Gentso1]

That sort of slogan will hasten the Gov'ts pace as they chase after us too.... Could be good for hype

It is a t-shirt bro not some sort of official slogan.

Hey, I killed the bank, baby.  Is it a pick up line too?

If she comes around asking you what it means then you pretty much got it in the bank I'd think.  Thats about as far as I'd venture a guess.

I do not know...he said he killed it, so he had nothing left in the bank...which reminds me about the bounty inside Apollo 13 that burned inside the ship last night.   :)

Whats funny is while I dont know enough to be able to claim the bounty I do like to read through the dry run threads just to kinda get a pulse if you will.

When I saw that there was a bounty posted on this dry run I was kinda excited just so I could see which member would claim it and how long it would take. toast's video though really summed it up, but you know not every launch can be straight to da moon. I am still excited and I am sure the team at I3 will really make you guys work to get that 100bitusd :P

[tonyk]

That sort of slogan will hasten the Gov'ts pace as they chase after us too.... Could be good for hype

It is a t-shirt bro not some sort of official slogan.

Hey, I killed the bank, baby.  Is it a pick up line too?

If she comes around asking you what it means then you pretty much got it in the bank I'd think.  Thats about as far as I'd venture a guess.

I do not know...he said he killed it, so he had nothing left in the bank...which reminds me about the bounty inside Apollo 13 that burned inside the ship last night.   :)

[gamey]

That sort of slogan will hasten the Gov'ts pace as they chase after us too.... Could be good for hype

It is a t-shirt bro not some sort of official slogan.

Hey, I killed the bank, baby.  Is it a pick up line too?

If she comes around asking you what it means then you pretty much got it in the bank I'd think.  Thats about as far as I'd venture a guess.

[bitbro]

That sort of slogan will hasten the Gov'ts pace as they chase after us too.... Could be good for hype

It is a t-shirt bro not some sort of official slogan.

Hey, I killed the bank, baby.  Is it a pick up line too?

[gamey]

That sort of slogan will hasten the Gov'ts pace as they chase after us too.... Could be good for hype

It is a t-shirt bro not some sort of official slogan.

[bitbro]

That sort of slogan will hasten the Gov'ts pace as they chase after us too.... Could be good for hype

[Gentso1]

Lol you guys are killing me......here is what I will have done.

Bitshares logo front offset accross the breast 2 tone.....

Quote across the back, Dropping the DAC's(sorry dac's).

Its clean its fairly simple and I feel it has bits and pieces from various people with different stand points.

Mock up will be posted upon completion.

Thanks a million btsx for the input.