Author Topic: mesh networking, last mile problem, and BTSX  (Read 20789 times)

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Offline bytemaster

This wouldn't be a DAC... it would be a standardized protocol that utilizes BTSX.  The routers would be "vending machines" not part of a DAC.

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Offline amencon

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This would be a very exciting DAC to see built.  The trouble will be finding areas where adoption is concentrated enough to make it truly useful.

With a currency DAC it have value even if the network is comprised of 2 users halfway across the globe from each other, for this you'd need areas of dozens or more users in close geographical proximity.

Despite that I'd be thrilled to see someone take on the challenge and would absolutely contribute by being a node in my area.

Offline bytemaster

Identity is easily managed by having a bond posted in the blockchain that is forfeit if the node doesn't make good.  The two parties can then exchange receipts as quickly as they like and then claim it at the end of the day. 

There is a point where it is cheaper to extend a free sample than attempt to collect payment for it. 
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Offline fussyhands

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There is no need to have transactions confirmed that quickly... peers would extend credit to each other and settle daily.  A node that doesn't settle will be cut off.  In a mesh network each node will have at most 18 peers  (neighbors left, right, front back, top, bottom, and diagonals) "in range"... if one of them doesn't pay then they are cut off.

Most payments could be made with "bandwidth bartering" and only the long-term trade surplus would need to be settled in crypto.

(1) You're thinking too small.  Done right, this can replace cell phone service too.  It's got to be trustless for that.  Nodes can't be settling up with your phone at the end of the day every time you visit a new neighborhood because that would allow cellphones to cheat and steal as much bandwidth as they want.

(2) Even if you confine the network to broadband, it needs to be easy to setup to get mass adoption.  That means you plug it in and it starts generating income or providing you with connectivity.  You don't want to have to worry about cutting people off or knowing the actual people you are connecting to.  Without a way to manage identity, an automated cutoff for cheaters would just mean that cheaters have to change their identification after each time they rip you off.  If nodes defend themselves from cheaters who are changing their identification constantly by refusing to accept new anonymous connections then you have just killed the ease of setting up the network, thus you've killed mass adoption, and thus you've killed coverage and throughput which depend on mass adoption.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 08:09:39 pm by fussyhands »

Offline roadscape

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Offline bytemaster

There is no need to have transactions confirmed that quickly... peers would extend credit to each other and settle daily.  A node that doesn't settle will be cut off.  In a mesh network each node will have at most 18 peers  (neighbors left, right, front back, top, bottom, and diagonals) "in range"... if one of them doesn't pay then they are cut off.

Most payments could be made with "bandwidth bartering" and only the long-term trade surplus would need to be settled in crypto.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline robrigo

I believe the DNS test net has successfully shown 2 second avg. confirmation times of transactions. So what you are describing may be possible using the BitShares toolkit.

Offline Ander

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Wow.  This sounds like a DAC that needs to be created!
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Offline fussyhands

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Bear with me as I explain an idea I had a few years ago regarding cryptocurrency and mesh networks, and let me know what you think:

As I'm sure most are familiar with here, the "last mile" problem refers to the incredible expense of wiring up a city for the last mile of connectivity.  There are hundreds of times more wire to run (and the expense of running that wire is much greater per mile) to connect each house within a city, than to run connections between cities.  That is a primary reason that there is virtually no competition for high speed internet access.  For instance, at my house, there is exactly one high speed internet company: Comcast.  However, if there were an inexpensive way to get internet to all the houses in the last mile, then the low cost of inter-city connectivity would drive down the cost of high speed internet (and drive up the speed).

Cellular service offers limited competition to broadband providers.  However, cellular technology makes very poor use of spectrum and thus cannot provide nearly the bandwidth necessary to become a real competitor.  To communicate with a single phone, each cell tower broadcasts a powerful signal over a broad swath of space, thus making that spectrum unavailable to communicate with other phones throughout that entire space.  This inefficient use of spectrum places a severe constraint on the amount of data that be transmitted.

Mesh networks can use spectrum much more efficiently because they can broadcast very weak signals over very short distances.  The weaker the signal the smaller the area monopolized by the transmission.  If the signal is only strong enough to reach the neighboring house, virtually no area is monopolized.  This leaves the spectrum available to all the other neighborhoods in the city to use simultaneously.  With efficient use of spectrum, wireless transmission can provide faster connectivity and higher throughput than the best broadband providers currently offer.  A simple illustration:



In the first image, user 1 monopolizes the spectrum for the entire neighborhood.  In the second image user 1 monopolizes the spectrum for only a small area allowing user 2 to simultaneously transmit.

If mesh networking solves the last mile problem, why do broadband providers still have monopoly power in the broadband markets?  Why are prices so high and speeds so slow?  Mesh networks have a critical problem that has yet to be resolved.  Mesh networks depend on wide spread participation to be effective but there is very little incentive to invest in hardware, electricity, setup costs, etc., in order to relay other people's data.  To incentivize people to participate in the network, there needs to be some kind of payment for relaying data.  Existing payment networks do not handle micropayments well.  Bitcoin is better than traditional payment networks but its transaction costs are too high and confirmation times too slow.

To make a mesh network successful, there must be a payment network that can send pennies of value with confirmation times of just a few seconds.  Very small transactions that are quickly confirmed will allow *streams* of payments to be sent in exchange for *streams* of data, reduce the opportunities to free loading and stealing, and eliminate the need for trust between anonymous nodes.  Then each hop in the mesh network can charge according to how much data it is passing and what the cost of the alternative routes are.  This will drive competition to install mesh nodes in busy areas of the network where they are needed most.  If you happen to live in a busy area, you can buy a mesh wifi router, plug it into your wall and collect a stream of income everyday.

BTSX transaction times are too slow and transaction fees are too expensive.  BUT, it may not be that way for long.  BTSX is currently the closest of any payment network to meeting the requirements of such a mesh network.  The actual cost of propagating, confirming and storing transactions is much lower than the current BTSX transaction fee, so the price has room to drop.  And with certain protocol advances (based on knowledge of propagation times of competing double spend transaction, and delegate voting) it may be possible to "confirm" transactions before they are included in a block, thus achieving transaction times of just a few seconds.  With transaction fees less than a penny and confirmation times of only a few seconds, streaming payments are a reality and a mesh network could thrive.

It would revolutionize the communications industry.  It would compete with not just broadband providers but also cellular providers.  It would eliminate the last mile problem and throw open the doors to competition.  It would be a trillion dollar disruption.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 08:00:04 pm by fussyhands »