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Messages - Rune

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901
As I understand it that was I3 covering for all the existing shorts that were grandfathered into the system.

902
Yes, but if many questions arise, people cannot vote on them so it forces me to choose on what I (and my biases) believe are the "best".  Feel free to ask and ill do my best to port them over myself...but if you have an account please consider posting there ;)

It's an advantage to have you choose the best questions. In this case, you're probably more competent than reddit voters. Don't take the decentralization mantra too far.

903
General Discussion / Re: Insurance, bounties and bail-outs
« on: October 23, 2014, 10:45:09 pm »
Definitely interesting ideas and hope they are explored further. For bail-outs, I'm not clear what the impact of 'hardforking a genesis block' is. Who effectively pays this, or is it paid via inflation of the number of BTS shares?

It simply inflates the total number of shares, so all BTS holders pay a cut out of pocket through dilution. The airdrops to PTS/AGS are done this way, I think. It wouldn't necessarily have a negative impact on the price though, because bitAsset holders would feel safe and would keep their money on the blockchain where as without a bailout they would probably lose faith and make a run on the bank, reducing the BTS price even more.
Dilution would devalue the collateral further, so mathematically this could only work if the size of a bailout were moderately small relative to the cap of BTS. Not sure if that is always necessarily the case(?). But some form of insurance on BitUSD at least is probably worth exploring.

Actually that would only be the case if bitAsset shareholders started selling off their bitassets, which is more likely to happen without a bailout than with it, I think.

904
General Discussion / Re: Insurance, bounties and bail-outs
« on: October 23, 2014, 10:10:59 pm »
Bail outs

I case of a black swan event tanking bitshares and making one of our bitassets insolvent, we could simply have an official policy of having BTS shareholders take the loss in order to preserve the peg by hardforking a genesis block that sends the missing amount to the yield fund. It would be expensive for stakeholders, but I think it would overall be very valuable as it once again increases investor confidence in our system, and makes bitassets pretty much 100% safe. It would also mean bitAsset holders would NOT pull out their bitassets in a case of a crash, which would contribute positively towards preventing a crash from causing insolvency. With bail outs as an official policy we could also experiment with lowering the collateral requirements to something that encourages margin trading a bit more, while still being secure, thus increasing the utility of the internal exchange and increasing yields for bitAsset holders.

Bytemaster originally proposed something like that (search FDIC). This can be a dangerous policy for BTS holders. You don't want to do it for any BitAsset. If the underlying of a BitAsset shoots up in price relative to BTS than BTS holders need to pay for that. I would like to allow people to experiment with various BitAssets without being able to steal value from BTS. The holders of the BitAssets would be the ones to take the risk of not gaining the defined value. For example, BitDouble holders shouldn't get double their real world value every year through BTS dilution if BTS growth cannot keep up. They should just have their peg stop working. On the other hand, for certain BitAssets it might make sense for BTS to cover the peg through dilution because the confidence it provides to holders and the resulting investment of funds into the system would be more than worth any risk of dilution. But the shareholders should be allowed to decide on which BitAssets this policy holds for. For example, we could let it apply for BitUSD and other BitCurrencies (things that should have price stability) and perhaps not let it apply for BitSPY or BitDJIA for example.

Ah yes, this is very true. It should probably only apply to fiat currencies of very large economies. I don't think there's a history of a fiat currency ever jumping in price :p

Also I think it's important that the bail out is in fact not implemented through code, but is simply a social consensus. Having a coded bailout could be dangerous if there's some sort of manipulation. A social consensus bail out would be almost 100% safe for bitassset holders anyway because BTS voters would know that if they don't do the bailout there will be a run on the bank and they will lose more.

905
General Discussion / Re: Insurance, bounties and bail-outs
« on: October 23, 2014, 10:08:19 pm »
Definitely interesting ideas and hope they are explored further. For bail-outs, I'm not clear what the impact of 'hardforking a genesis block' is. Who effectively pays this, or is it paid via inflation of the number of BTS shares?

It simply inflates the total number of shares, so all BTS holders pay a cut out of pocket through dilution. The airdrops to PTS/AGS are done this way, I think. It wouldn't necessarily have a negative impact on the price though, because bitAsset holders would feel safe and would keep their money on the blockchain where as without a bailout they would probably lose faith and make a run on the bank, reducing the BTS price even more.

906
General Discussion / Insurance, bounties and bail-outs
« on: October 23, 2014, 09:49:24 pm »
To accommodate the rapid growth I described in my other thread, I have some ideas for policies we can implement through voting functionality to avoid some of the mistakes bitcoin did.

Bug insurance.

We can implement a policy that says if you follow the security instructions and still manage to lose your coins somehow through a bug, e.g. that sends your coins to a dead address or loses them in some other way. If you can present proof beyond doubt to the community that you lost it due to a bug, a delegate will inflate the money back and give to you (for small amounts) or the community will hard fork a genesis block that pays you back (for large amounts). Obviously this would require ridiculously strict security/identification measures, but if implemented and with successful precedence of use I think it would attract massive investor confidence in us. No more "tough luck". Also the community wouldn't even be paying anything for this insurance, because the coins that were inflated would simply make up for the coins that were lost.

Bounties

The insurance model would not work for hacks, scams or thieves because without clear proof the coins were destroyed it would be almost impossible to determine if a hacking victim isn't simply defrauding us bitcoin "we got hacked" style. However the blockchain will be able to put up massive bounties for the capture of a hacker or scammer or rogue exchange that targets bitshares users. If we put up a massive bounty many times the size of the first hack that is done against the community, we will set a strong example that stealing from bitshares users will be much more dangerous than from other crypto coin communities. Once again this would require some quite ridiculous levels security and investigation, but the upside would also be enormous as it would once again massively increase investor confidence in our system.

Bail outs

I case of a black swan event tanking bitshares and making one of our bitassets insolvent, we could simply have an official policy of having BTS shareholders take the loss in order to preserve the peg by hardforking a genesis block that sends the missing amount to the yield fund. It would be expensive for stakeholders, but I think it would overall be very valuable as it once again increases investor confidence in our system, and makes bitassets pretty much 100% safe. It would also mean bitAsset holders would NOT pull out their bitassets in a case of a crash, which would contribute positively towards preventing a crash from causing insolvency. With bail outs as an official policy we could also experiment with lowering the collateral requirements to something that encourages margin trading a bit more, while still being secure, thus increasing the utility of the internal exchange and increasing yields for bitAsset holders.

907
I wonder if this thread will be absolutely epic in a year...

Actually I've probably jinxed it now :P

and let's not forget possible biological evolution of the human brain structures as a result of adaptation to network knowledge.... might take a few generations though?

As neuroscience student this is what I'm hoping to work on. I'd like to see a system that allows the decentralized network to interface and establish trust neurally, rather than through clunky text, screens and passwords.

908
I wonder if this thread will be absolutely epic in a year...

Actually I've probably jinxed it now :P

909
Wow that is some vision!  And this is awesome sales copy (among other things), good stuff  +5%

These incentives combine to form a system where every new employee added to the company, DO NOT have diminishing marginal returns due to an increasing lack of information.

There is a limited amount of time stakeholders have to perform research on delegates as it will take a lot of time to read all the stuff they transparently reveal about their work and keeping up with the discussion among stakeholders about delegates could easily become a full time job for those with large enough stake to make it worth their time.

How efficiently this discussion + research takes place will be crucial.  Some kind of social platform will be needed for delegates to showcase their work and propose plans for fund spending.  This forum may become over run soon, we'll need a more advanced platform where individual comments can be voted up reddit style to help sort though the junk (maybe it should require a small stake to do an upvote/downvote).

Anyway I like this kind of thinking, it's good to have a long term vision for BTS.

There will be massive economic incentives for the system to innovate a system that allows stakeholders to make decisions as efficiently as possible, and leverage the decisions of similar minded stakeholders. Think of some sort of distributed artificial semi-intelligence that is able to talk to you and ask you questions that can be transformed into specific vote behaviour on your behalf. As long as the system is implemented transparently on the blockchain itself it will be secure.

Also remember as market cap grows, so does individual stakeholders. New stakeholders can specialize themselves in whatever niche they have any knowledge or interest in. Perhaps there will even be some way to incentivize good voting behaviour economically - which would basically make the system immune to failure. I'm not totally sure if that is possible though.

910
I had thought that Bitshares had hit upon something with the ability to hire paid delegates by a vote - a potential new corporate structure.  A distributed corporation.


Is this the future of the blockchain technology?

Will the blockchain not only revolutionize money and finance but also revolutionize THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE OF OUR CORPORATE WORLD?



2009-2014: Bitcoin, the first big application of the blockchain technology revolutionizes money.
2014-20??: Bitshares, the second big applicaiton of the blockchain technology, revolutionizes the nature of corporations.

The Final Blockchain.

911
I think this capability means that once the internal market has matured, we will not really see bubbles, but rather "jumps" to a higher plateau because traders will prefer hedging internally as it is more secure than a centralized exchange.

912
So the question is ...

Are we still playing in the Bitcoin 2.0 regime?

If my crazy theories come to pass, humans will move beyond even the very notion of markets. We will go from competing in a free market to collaborating in a free organisation.

913
I am in favor of eliminating all legal entities owned by multiple individuals.
I am in favor of no corporations (creation of the state).

So as soon as possible I hope to switch over to individuals.


That said, what is the difference between a "super coder" which manages and outsources 100 people but takes 100% responsibility and 100 average coders hired directly.   It is only a question of productivity and cost.   Do you trust the super coder to use what ever means necessary (including delegation and hiring help?) 

So lets set the principle that no "shared ownership legal entity"....

I don't expect a super coder who specializes in coding to also specialize in trust management, as they are two completely unrelated skills.  This is my reasoning behind why I'd vote against it at least. I'd much rather see the super coder running his team "on-blockchain" so to say, and have the entire managerial structure completely transparent via delegate slates, so potential bad apples can be discovered and removed.

914
The answer to the delegate question is simply a question of what is most profitable. I think shareholders will eventually strongly prefer to have total transparency and control over every employee (to avoid gatekeepers).

Once we are in the situations where we have 101 delegates on board who are engaged in profitable work, and someone like vbuterin signs up to join the organization, I imagine stakeholders will vote to increase the number of delegates rather than throwing out an incumbent delegate or having vbuterin working as a subemployee of a middleman delegate.

915
So I've been spamming the forum quite a bit, one second crying out against VOTE and calling I3 dishonest, the next whining for transparency, then insulting those who lost money to DNS while sucking up to BM, and in general just posting walls of text everywhere. Edit: I want to clarify that I don't actually think that I3 are dishonest, I was just pissed off in the moment.

Now is time for my huge wall of text about my thoughts of what BTS will become, and why I think it will grow a lot faster than anyone are expecting.

My premise is this: BTS is more than just a cryptocurrency and it is more than just shares 2.0. It is a completely new paradigm of human corporate organization and it solves some of the fundamental problems that have constrained companies, governments, armies and every other organizational structure for thousands of years.

Economic activity and value growth are the products of capital and labor. The point of trade and organization has always been to specialize labor into the activity that is most useful or valuable (i.e. division of labor), and to allocate capital to the place where it is most beneficial.

The free market blindly fights in an evolutionary game of survival of the fittest to figure out which specific allocation is most valuable for a given individual. As a competitive advantage organizations form within the free market as a method of leveraging the intellect of humans who specialize in leadership to control others into allocating their labor towards what will be most beneficial. This gives the benefit of allowing very specialized division of labor and more intelligent allocation of a combined pool of capital. Due to economies of scale there can be a huge advantage for a company to grow in size in order to leverage specific specialized areas of the capital and labor they control. One example could be marketing - if two factories make the same product it is better for them to unify under a single brand as they can then double their marketing effort for the products of both factories, rather than having two different brands and marketing separately. A more simple example is simply factory production, since when volume is scaled up capital and labor can increasingly specialize and thus give increasing returns. Anyway, using the simple logic of economies of scale, it would be logical for all human economic activity to unified under a single company. As we all know, that isn't the case...

Transaction costs, gatekeepers, imperfect information and diminishing returns on investment.

The reason why all humans are not unified under a single a company are numerous, but the most obvious one, is the reason we all know and hate: corrupt gatekeepers that take advantage of the lack of information to extract value from the company without other stakeholders in the organization knowing it. This means as an organization grows and its organizational structure becomes more convoluted and nested, the opportunity of middle managers or middlemen to loot and unfairly extract value from the organization increase. Because it is so universally rampant, the less severe forms of this are socially accepted; slacking off on the job instead of always seeking to apply yourself to the fullest within the organization technically also counts as looting, since you are essentially stealing the money you're getting paid when you're not working. You've entered a contract that pays you for work, and the organization honors it's own part of the contract by paying you, but you don't honor yours since you're not working. Even though this is clearly breach of contract, and thus essentially stealing private property, it is still socially accepted and even admired when people are able to slack off when they work for a corporate giant. These things are totally unavoidable in a traditional organizational structure because of the opaqueness and imperfect information. There are many economic papers that have tried to nail down the exact ratio with which the effectiveness of an employee decreases with each step of growth in the amount of employees, due to increasing opaqueness and decreasing access to information, and it is actually quite high. No matter the exact ratio we can all agree that the average amount of work done by someone working for a startup is a lot higher than the average amount of work done by, say, an Exxon Mobil employee, and this dimishing marginal return constrains Exxon Mobil's growth in some way. Interestingly, exxon mobil is still able to be huge because it employs another imperfection of the market to its own, unfair advantage: regulatory capture.

Bitshares solves these problems by having strong economic incentives for upholding total transparency across the board.

Bitshares employees are hired a different way than employees of a regular organization. Instead of being hired directly by a singular, trusted person or group of people within a seperated area of the organizational structure, new employees are nominated by these employees and then put to the vote by all stakeholders. It is done simply and frictionlessly simply by including them in their slate. This creates a nested structure of transparent trust where anyone trusting the upper level of an organizational structure is able to trace exactly how that trust is funneled down to employees at the lower levels. Should a stakeholder find proof of any employee being a bad apple, it is extremely easy to put forth this proof to the larger community of stakeholders and have them instantly voted out. Indeed an investigative organizational structure that specializes in analysing the work of other delegates and sound the alarm if an unprofitable, stealing or colluding employee is found could be implemented to have clear economic incentives for professionals to weed out the bad apples. If a bad apple is found the network of transparent trust that delegate slates creates can be used trace who originally nominated or appointed this employee, and they can be investigated to see if they are also malicious, or it was simply a mistake. This gives a strong economic incentive for all existing employees to only ever nominate new employees that they think are fully honest and profitable for the DAC.

These incentives combine to form a system where every new employee added to the company, DO NOT have diminishing marginal returns due to an increasing lack of information, but rather have INCREASING returns because they are able to leverage their own output onto the entire network; a combination of economies of scale and metcalfes law. The result of this is that any currently existing organizational structure or company that is smaller than bitshares will ALWAYS benefit from integrating itself into the bitshares organizational structure, since it will be able to create higher value, leverage a larger network, and even have more efficient employee management due to the effective transparency and governance that the bitshares delegate system creates. For every person or organization that is integrated into bitshares, the speed and ability with which new organizations can be integrated and new employees can be hired will increase with no diminishing returns. If all this reasoning turns out to be fact, then the only logical conclusion is that bitshares will eventually integrate every single structure of currently existing human economic organization. It will be a company that does all economic activity, owns all assets and employs all employees on the entire planet, and is in turn jointly owned by all humans. I even think that it will take over the non-profitable duties of governments and charities, such as protecting the innocent, caring for the poor and misfortunate, funding basic research, supporting and protecting art and historical relics, protecting the environment and biodiversity, and space exploration. This is because most humans are willing to allocate a certain percentage of their spending power to altruistic measures, and will thus in some situations vote for things that are not profitable, but rather charitable. A organization-wide compromise will be reached between pure profits and pure charity, and i suspect that this consensus will eventually be much higher than the current charitable rate of even welfare states, since people will become increasingly generous once the indoctrinations of the incumbent system are gradually phased out.

Here's how I see the timeline playing out assuming absolutely best case scenario:

November: BTS is created, and we start to mess around with the funding of delegates and try to figure out the best practices for voting and oversight and such. Once we get that sorted out, the marketing push begins.

December: The on and offramps are revealed, and the big marketing push for bitUSD begins. A big push to hire every single developer in the crypto space that is currently working for free, and thus donating their labor, will begin autonomously. This includes things like bitcoin developers, the OB developers, wallet devs such as mycelium and darkwallet, and others. Some of the developers will be so strong in their beliefs that they will insist on refusing payment out of loyalty to the bitcoin blockchain, but some of them will invariably recognize the great advantage getting paid for their work will give them.

January/February: we begin talks with NXT and etherium to buy them and their userbase out, mainly to get our hands on their developers and to cause a huge scene in the crypto space and diversifying our stakeholder base. This integration will eventually happen no matter what, but the time it takes before it's done is hard to judge since it depends not on economic factors (which are 100% in favor of integration) but rather on pride, confusion and fear by the current NXT and ethereum stakeholders.

Spring 2015: We reach 101 profitable employees, with more employees looking to join. Stakeholders vote to increase the delegate cap rather than kicking out an incumbent profitable employee. This will continuously happen and the amount of delegates will eventually increase exponentially.

Summer 2015: We buy out a midsize bitcoin infrastructure company, such as skyhook. This newly acquired company will integrate all its employees directly as delegates in the bitshares organization, and it will change its business model to hire new employees as delegates that are responsible for maintaining internally owned ATM's in a specific area (ie they will no longer sell the ATMs to others, because it is more profitable to have them owned and applied by bitshares). Skyhook will then begin mass producing ATMs at highest capacity and the network will initally subsidize placing them EVERYWHERE, as this will be extremely profitable over time and will be a very profitable long term investment.

Winter 2015: We buy out bitpay, and probably surpass bitcoin in market cap. We've probably also hired all the current bitcoin and altcoin developers at this point, and integrated almost every altcoin into our system. The only blockchains we will be competing with at this point are clones of bitshares that are attempting to refine our organizational structure or strategy in some way, or specializing the blockchain to an extreme degree in some area where our scale work against us.

This is the best of the best of the best case scenario imaginable. It's probably not gonna happen but I don't consider it completely outside the realm of possibility. Interestingly, only the first few months actually depend on I3, the rest will be done in a decentralized manner due to the independent alignment of economic incentives, however I3 will probably lead the effort in whichever way they consider more profitable. The important thing is that this train will run on its own once it gets the tiniest bit of momentum, and our fortunes will be pretty much secured.

Does this sound scary to you? It's definitely scary to me. When I first started to draw these conclusions I panicked because I thought of the massive danger if this system somehow gets corrupted along the way, just like every other large human organization that has ever existed. It will be like the nuclear bomb, once this thing is invented and unleashed on the world there is no taking it back, even by the creators. However, corruption doesn't arise spontanously in a system, it either exists at it's creation, or it enters later on. And that is the KEY, because WE are this seed, and I choose to believe that every person on this forum is a good human being, in fact more than just a good human being, I believe the vast majority here are EXTREMELY committed to fight corruption and evil in all its forms, because my impression is that the majority of people were brought here exactly because of that, rather than profit.

Because our system is completely transparent, and because we are the early adopters and majority owners, we can trust each other to always be on the lookout should any corruption attempt to enter the system. If a bank attempts to buy us out, we will revolt and it will never happen. If a delegate attempts to argue that transparency isn't needed we will refuse them. If a group of delegates collude to attempt to turn the voting process into a political shitshow, we will see through their deceit and kick them out.

Okay, now you have it, this is why I'm honored to be an early adopter, and this is why I'm honored to be here with you all - because from the short time I've known you all on this forum, I have overwhelmingly seen the desire to do good be prioritized over everything else, even profits. It's as if running this thing in a way that benefits humanity is more than just our collective desire, it's our purpose.

And that is why I now believe, contrary to what I wrote earlier, that we not only are the right people to take this amazingly scary and wonderful project off the ground, we deserve it.

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