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Messages - Empirical1

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766
DAC PLAY / Re: What games do we want to play?
« on: April 07, 2014, 11:54:52 pm »
Even though I play a lot of online poker, I chose Lottery.

All the other games are pretty well represented online with fairly high 'trust' ratings, so there's not that much advantage to having them as DAC's. Having said that, as the crypto-economy grows, being the leading poker/bingo/casino DAC will still be very lucrative.

The lottery DAC on the other hand can double the average players winning odds because of the 50% waste in the current centralised real world model, so there's a real opportunity there to be a really disruptive game-changing, excuse the pun DAC IMO.


Edit: Another advantage is that our crypto-currencies are borderless, so the long term potential is that the leading lottery could ultimately become a global lottery - much bigger than any current lottery - being able to offer bigger prizes at much better odds is something real world counterparts could never compete with. 

767
General Discussion / Re: invictus poem by Ernest Henley
« on: April 07, 2014, 07:44:50 pm »
A'ight... Where's our Zhou Tonged?

BitShares needs an anthem.

We could always rework the equally inspiring and deeply moving DuckTales into DAC-Tales?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koSl8JX5BeI

"Life is like a hurricane here in DAC-burg
Exchanges, gaming, charities, it's a DAC-blur!
Might solve a mystery
Or rewrite history!
[Chorus]
DAC-Tales! Woo-oo!
Everyday we're out there making
DAC-Tales! Woo-oo!
Tales of derring do-bad and good
Luck Tales! Woo-oo!
D-d-d-danger! Watch behind you!
There's an oppressive government out to find you
What to do, just grab on to some...
[Chorus]
DAC-Tales! Woo-oo"






 

768

- Bitshares X,  the value proposition is just so clear vs. the existing status quo, this one DAC & its successors can completely change the face of finance. Woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I explain BitShares to people for the first time, they grasp BTS ME much more quickly than BTS X. However, some few have sworn mildly, when they finally got how BitAssets work.


Yeah that's true. When I say it's 'just so clear' I mean it's clear to me how it could transform finance, but in terms of explaining the opportunity to other people, yes it's hard to grasp at first, which is why I guess I wanted to draw attention to the marketing of it as well.



- Social consensus, third parties that haven't been working with Invictus honouring AGS/PTS  - Personally I don't necessarily see that happening.

Social Consensus really does need to be explained over and over and over, as Stan keeps doing.  Why give your 'coins' or 'shares' away to random strangers, who might or might not even hold on to them, when you can distribute some of them to a ready-made early-adopter market?

I suppose I just haven't seen enough real world examples of this concept in action. Stan did point out that SiliconValley Coin is predicated on a similar idea. To a certain degree the Aurora/Spain Coin are examples. I can also see the potential value of Dogecoin (I don't own any) drops, for network and viral marketing impact for example. So as you say, maybe after some DAC's have been released I'll start to get/understand more how the process works.


At the moment I'm seeing better and better explanations about how it works but the marketing seems to be missing the sales pitch, the part that will get new people interested and excited enough to find out more about how it works.

Until BTS ME and BTS X are released, slick videos and logos on magazine covers could serve primarily to raise expectations and frustration levels, if some of the comments on this forum are any guide.

What we really need is something that we can demo, and some very clever young men are working diligently on that.

That's true and there's also some value to being a bit under the radar until it's up and running.

Anyway thanks for the reply, exciting times!   8)

769
What am I excited about?

- Bitshares is so far ahead of the curve with regards to understanding the potential of and developing ducks in so many exciting areas.
- On the technical front it seems like Dan is a few moves ahead, anticipating problems other people aren't even thinking about yet and already implementing solutions to solve them.
- Bitshares X,  the value proposition is just so clear vs. the existing status quo, this one DAC & its successors can completely change the face of finance. Woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What am I worried about?

- Social consensus, third parties that haven't been working with Invictus honouring AGS/PTS  - Personally I don't necessarily see that happening.
- Dan heavy, if something happened to Dan, my investment would be worth a lot less. (But I guess that is the case with a lot of companies in the beginning.)   
- Marketing, it's very good (Really liking the evolution of the website)  but it's not incredible yet.
Particularly with regards to advertising, I would like to see more videos and adverts, that I can share with friends. (I know they're coming... slowly :) )
I also think anticipation with regards to how the market and public will respond to certain product and branding decisions might not at the same gifted level as other areas. When marketing strong talent weak vultures start preying on some DAC's before they become established this could surface as a potential vulnerability.   

At the moment I'm seeing better and better explanations about how it works but the marketing seems to be missing the sales pitch, the part that will get new people interested and excited enough to find out more about how it works. The monopoly style summary on http://bitshares.org/banking/  is quite good and is the right kind of idea but personally I found this particular explanation Bytemaster gave in response, quoted below, to someone asking about Bitshares X just BRILLIANT!
I think something like this would be better than the graphic or maybe work well used in combination to advertise Bitshares X to newbies on a JPEG, the website, Bitcointalk, Reddit & in the Bitshares video style.   
(Ie. a Bitshares X advert & video to get them interested and a separate Bitshares X video to then explain how it works.)
 
BitShares is a revolutionary new bank and exchange that could rival the value of the largest banks in the world such as JP Morgan and Bank of America in just a few years. How could this new upstart grow so quickly?  BitShares offers a bank account that earns 5% interest where funds can be transferred in minutes anywhere in the world with more privacy and security than a Swiss bank account.  Your account can never be frozen, your funds cannot be seized, and the bank can never face collapse due to loan defaults or fraud.  All of this is made possible without requiring any employees, lawyers, regulatory compliance, vaults, buildings, and other infrastructure required by traditional banks.  Unlike existing banks, you can hold your balance denominated in gold, silver, oil, or other commodities in additional to national currencies while earning 5% interest. 

In addition to acting as a bank, BitShares also serves as an exchange where currencies, commodities, and stock derivatives can be traded with most of the features used by professional traders including shorts and options.   The Bank takes a cut on every transaction and pays 100% of these transaction fees as dividends to the shareholders.  BitShares can achieve this feat using the same technology that makes Bitcoin possible, irrevocable decentralized automated consensus forming.     

For a quick comparison of BitShares to Bitcoin you can view Bitcoin as stock in a company that earns no profits, pays 100% of its revenue to security guards, and then debases shareholders by 12% per year to fund security.  Despite the inefficiencies and costs, Bitcoin has grown to be worth over $12 billion dollars in less than 5 years.   How much more valuable would Bitcoin be if it could turn a profit while offering far more powerful services?    The value of owning shares in this new Bank will exceed two times the value of all balances of in gold, silver, oil, and currency accounts.  If the largest banks can achieve deposits of over $1 trillion dollars with no meaningful interest, how many deposits could BitShares attract and what would that mean for the value of the bank?

Out of all my investments, Bitshares is the one I'm most excited about, so on the whole yeah pretty excited! :D 

770
DAC PLAY / Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« on: April 07, 2014, 03:22:18 pm »
My concern with this DAC that doesn't seem to be being addressed yet is that  - An online poker site is a lot like a night club.

You can charge guys less for entry but if there's no hot chicks inside they'd rather go somewhere else and pay more.
(In this case the guys are the serious/semi-pro/professional poker players and the hot chicks are the recreational players.)

$ made from weaker players - rake + rakeback = Player Profit

Lots of Pokerstars budget for example goes to sponsorships, glitzy promotions, customer service, security and creating a good user experience. This expenditure is designed to attract the recreational (weaker) player (Who don't even understand how much rake they're paying.) The rest of the player pool (which actually put in most of the volume and generate most of the sites profit) is generally going to where the most recreational players are.

I think that's something to keep in mind - that being successful here is also about being able to offer more than just reduced rake.
 
There is a market here in the crypto-economy I guess, as Seals With Clubs managed to attract a decent user base.
I think in the US there is also tax on poker winnings and a poker DAC might make that a bit more avoidable. 

771
DAC PLAY / Re: PokerChips: Hosting Fair RNG Sessions
« on: April 07, 2014, 12:58:19 pm »
Neither of those solutions solve the problem. The problem is two players at the same table sharing information about their hands.

Anonymizing identities doesn't matter if me and my accomplice know each other in real life and can just pick the same table.
IP addresses are totally useless for anything related to identity verification.

The only thing I can think of is a trust ranking or public statistics on your play. Stats like how often a player sat at the same table as another player and how often they played a hand together and other stats that may be relevant to collusion only.  Along with stats, you can have an approval system to sit at the table.  If 80% of a persons hands were played at the same table as another player, the other players at the table can disallow that player to sit.

I don't know.  Just throwing out ideas.

The thing about blockchains is that every time you play you can be a new user.

How about making your seat and table random?  The player can't choose where they play.

Pokerstars has 'Zoom' tables at multiple stakes.
There are usually a couple of hundred people in the zoom pool at any one time.
After each hand you are zoomed to another random table & given a new hand, this is to speed up the action but it also means you can't collude because the likelihood of you sitting at the same table as your colluders enough is very low.

Also I'm sure 80% of the poker volume is under 2/4 ($400 buy-in tables) and at those levels colluding is pretty pointless. Winners at those stakes are either bum-hunting (seeking out & getting position on weak/recreational players, no collusion needed, not worth it.) or they're mass multi-tabling playing 8-24 tables at the same time, making so many decisions so quickly it's not possible to collude. (They break even and live off rake-back*)

Rake* you showed the rake table earlier in the thread which looks lucrative for shareholders but bear in mind players can get anywhere from 20-60% of that back on most sites via rake-back. So you'd probably have to undercut that model by 75% to be attractive.

A bigger problem at lower stakes than colluding is bots, many people have automated bots that just play basic strategy on multiple tables and eek out a profit.


772
I don't know what exactly it is


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BitShares is a revolutionary new bank and exchange that could rival the value of the largest banks in the world such as JP Morgan and Bank of America in just a few years. How could this new upstart grow so quickly?  BitShares offers a bank account that earns 5% interest where funds can be transferred in minutes anywhere in the world with more privacy and security than a Swiss bank account.  Your account can never be frozen, your funds cannot be seized, and the bank can never face collapse due to loan defaults or fraud.  All of this is made possible without requiring any employees, lawyers, regulatory compliance, vaults, buildings, and other infrastructure required by traditional banks.  Unlike existing banks, you can hold your balance denominated in gold, silver, oil, or other commodities in additional to national currencies while earning 5% interest. 

In addition to acting as a bank, BitShares also serves as an exchange where currencies, commodities, and stock derivatives can be traded with most of the features used by professional traders including shorts and options.   The Bank takes a cut on every transaction and pays 100% of these transaction fees as dividends to the shareholders.  BitShares can achieve this feat using the same technology that makes Bitcoin possible, irrevocable decentralized automated consensus forming.     

For a quick comparison of BitShares to Bitcoin you can view Bitcoin as stock in a company that earns no profits, pays 100% of its revenue to security guards, and then debases shareholders by 12% per year to fund security.  Despite the inefficiencies and costs, Bitcoin has grown to be worth over $12 billion dollars in less than 5 years.   How much more valuable would Bitcoin be if it could turn a profit while offering far more powerful services?    The value of owning shares in this new Bank will exceed two times the value of all balances of in gold, silver, oil, and currency accounts.  If the largest banks can achieve deposits of over $1 trillion dollars with no meaningful interest, how many deposits could BitShares attract and what would that mean for the value of the bank?

 +5%

That is some great stuff! I imagine you guys are doing a Bitshares X video to explain how it works.
I would also consider doing a Bitshares X advert, where the advert includes pretty much exactly what you've written there! Even just the first paragraph, if that first paragraph was a short advert we could send to friends, colleagues with a click-through at the end 'want to learn more' I think that would spread quickly!

773
duck id  (and we don't forget Larimers DAC idea)
 
think about it!
Its all included...

crypto meaning  (DAC Idea) and not only
unique
easy to use: give me your duck id
nobody forget it, easy to remember
logo friendly
doge effect on community and widespread adoption
name are catchy and fun

and going one step further why dont use the duck for all DACs

bitshares X duck
bitshares ME duck
DNS duck
VOICE duck
MAS duck :)
MUSIC duck (see logo example)
VEGAS duck
whatever duck







 +5%

'Bitshares X Duck' still under construction... 




774
DAC PLAY / Re: Players vs Shareholders
« on: April 06, 2014, 02:52:08 am »
Yes people play lotteries now knowing they are losing 50%, so a few % in a lottery DAC is nothing.

People are willing to forgo that much EV for the chance to suddenly win a big prize.

Some people want to be shareholders/investors earning a nice return in various businesses and some people want to be gamblers hoping to hit a big pay-day. Some people even do both.

Be a share holder and use your dividends to play the lottery?

 +5% That's a nice freeroll   :)

Only if you ignore opportunity costs.

True

775
DAC PLAY / Re: Players vs Shareholders
« on: April 06, 2014, 02:32:06 am »
Yes people play lotteries now knowing they are losing 50%, so a few % in a lottery DAC is nothing.

People are willing to forgo that much EV for the chance to suddenly win a big prize.

Some people want to be shareholders/investors earning a nice return in various businesses and some people want to be gamblers hoping to hit a big pay-day. Some people even do both.

Be a share holder and use your dividends to play the lottery?

 +5% That's a nice freeroll   :)

776
DAC PLAY / Re: Players vs Shareholders
« on: April 06, 2014, 01:00:57 am »
Yes people play lotteries now knowing they are losing 50%, so a few % in a lottery DAC is nothing.

People are willing to forgo that much EV for the chance to suddenly win a big prize.

Some people want to be shareholders/investors earning a nice return in various businesses and some people want to be gamblers hoping to hit a big pay-day. Some people even do both.

777
DAC PLAY / Re: Lotto POS alt-coin idea
« on: April 05, 2014, 03:44:14 pm »
This graph shows your odds of winning and the percentage of the prize pool, various prizes make up.   



In an ideal world, (The one lottery coin to rule them all) to appeal to investors, conservative gamblers (prize-bond holders FreeTrade mentioned), average lottery players and aggressive gamblers you'd want to be able to calibrate your odds on the prize structure above.

It would be set to a default.

But if you were aggressive you might move all your prize fund into the big jackpots category to give you the most chance of hitting it big.

If you were conservative you might move more of your personal prize fund into the lower prizes.

(Also bear in mind because it's frictionless and there are no expenses your odds of winning should be double shown here? I think?)

If that's the case your odds of winning the smallest prize would be 11.5-1 and as a conservative investor you can put 100% of your personal prize fund in this group then your odds of winning on all your coins would be 2-1. (I.e. with a reasonable amount of coins this would give you the same result as 'opting out' in the medium term.) But at least we'd all look like gamblers & the total prize fund would look the most impressive but really people in this category would be banking on the value (popularity) of lottery coin increasing. (Average new money in exceeding pace of inflation.)

As a sidenote:

It might even be possible to incorporate the distributed inflation model with the ability to use your coins as tokens that let you choose traditional lottery numbers.
Prizes are awarded in new coins (inflation) which can be sold or used as tokens for new tickets. Same as before where even if you lost your token would still have a value (probably worth more than before if lottery growth outpacing it's inflation) and can still purchase future tickets it would just make up a smaller % of the total than before so your odds of winning would be lower.

Other: if it was applied to the calibration model above...

Then 1 token would let you choose 1 normal lottery ticket and payout is as graph.

Agressive strategy would get you 3 tickets for one token but you only win if you match 5 numbers+

Conservative investor strategy - would get you 6 tickets but you only win the small prizes for matching 2 numbers (you could also choose the most unpopular numbers, see below)

To be even more confusing, if you could incorporate the traditional lottery number option and the calibration approach conservative investors, could also focus directing their tokens to non-popular numbers -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Lottery_(United_Kingdom)
 
Quote
In their book "Scenarios for Risk Management and Global Investment Strategies", ISBN 978-0-470-31924-6 (HB) John Wiley & Sons Ltd 2007, academics Rachel E S Ziemba and William T Ziemba say with regard to 6/49 lotteries, "Random numbers have an expected loss of about 55%. However, six-tuples of unpopular numbers have an edge with expected returns exceeding their cost by about 65%. The expected value rises and approaches $2.25 per dollar wagered when there are carryovers [UK term: rollovers]. Random numbers, such as those from lucky dip and quick pick, and popular numbers are worth more with carryovers but never have an advantage." They conclude that, due to the time that would be required to achieve success, "except for millionaires and pooled syndicates, it is not possible to use the unpopular numbers in a scientific way to beat the lotto and have high confidence of becoming rich; these aspiring millionaires will also most likely be residing in a cemetery when their distant heirs reach the goal".

That's a pretty big edge considering in the examples they are referencing -

Quote
the average percentage return is the share of the ticket sales devoted to prize funds, about 45%


- so a 65% edge even when over half your investment is lost in fees is pretty astounding. I'd imagine a frictionless lottery would give people an edge even on two number payouts by choosing unpopular ones.

778
DAC PLAY / Re: Lotto POS alt-coin idea
« on: April 05, 2014, 02:15:57 pm »
It's a fine idea - it has a precedent in the real world - something called 'Prize Bonds' -
http://www.prizebonds.ie/

Essentially interest is paid on cash investment - but the interest is not awarded uniformally, but rather each bond has a chance of winning some of the prizes - so potentially you might have a very small investment, but win a very large prize.

You might implement it in a DAC so that each player has a small chance of winning, but a small chance of losing too - or a small percentage reduction of balances each drawing. You might also have two classes of coin in the system - one that plays for prizes, one that doesn't - that would address BM's important point.

Overall, it would be easier to implement than the lottery, but the lottery would generate more excitement and interest.

Thanks FreeTrade, yes prize bonds are a great example of the concept in action and I see they're popular in many countries. 
That could even be a useful model for the conservative implementation of the concept. (I think launching a conservative, normal and aggressive model of the concept would be a good idea, so we cover all markets and will have a stake in whichever one takes off - and once it takes off - it should ensure a competitor would have difficulty catching up or forking.)

Quote
You might also have two classes of coin in the system - one that plays for prizes, one that doesn't - that would address BM's important point.

Bear in mind for the lottery coin to be sustainable it would on average have to pay out less in prizes (via inflation) then there is new money coming into the system. Therefore with all but the most aggressive calibrations, even though your % share of the total coins would decrease each week,(if you didn't win anything), the $ value of your investment should be increasing,

but yes I would also want a more investor geared option & I think the simplest way to do this (& address BM's important point) and still have it remain frictionless is to have an 'opt out' option where your coins just increase with the rate of inflation but don't stand a chance to win any of the prizes. (Hmm. that's pretty much what you said, good idea.)
(Ie. If you owned 1% of the total at the beginning you'd still own 1% after each draw - if the lottery proved profitable the rate of return on this would be astounding!)

Thoughts:

If we distributed it to Bitshares holders initially it would be pretty pointless as we're all mainly investors, so either the 'opt out' option should take a few months to come into effect or/& a large % of the coin is also air-dropped elsewhere - perhaps Dogecoin holders would be a good demographic.

We (Bitshares) could seed it with a few $ in guaranteed prizes for the first 4 weeks helping it to reach X value.

I also realised it's not as simple as designating X% inflation for the coin that will dominate this market because a popular coin will grow rapidly in the beginning but then the rate of growth relative to the base will slow even with large $ inputs, so the inflation metric used to award prizes would have to take account of that. (It (inflation) also needs to be high in the beginning to be attractive and it needs to slow as the coin matures to avoid being unsustainable, so somehow it would have to be designed/dynamically adjust.)


Quote
Overall, it would be easier to implement than the lottery, but the lottery would generate more excitement and interest.

We could for the aggressive implementation aim for similar metrics as normal lotteries (aiming to give up to 50% of average* new weekly growth as prizes via randomly distributed inflation - how that could be implemented though, I have no idea, unless the coin could self-track it's price and other metrics.) but leaving the remainder of value in the coin, (which is lost in normal lotteries) so it would be just as exciting and rewarding as a normal lottery but it would build on itself and you wouldn't lose everything if you lost and still have a chance to win future lotteries.   

Other thought: Someone should make a BitUsd icon, that would be cool to use instead of $ in these Bitshares forum posts, (Like the  +5%)


(* Average new weekly growth - because we still want there to be the same level prizes in weeks where the value may have dropped, due to bad news for crypto in general, speculation etc. so it would have to be some algorithm that also tries to maintain a minimum level of inflation not just distributing increases in value in any one particular week.)


779
DAC PLAY / Re: Lotto POS alt-coin idea
« on: April 05, 2014, 12:14:43 am »
Where is the pot of money coming from to give out?  You can only sell all the coins once, to raise funds, then you do a lotto.  But how do you do the 2nd lotto?

Issue a lottery POS alt-coin let it find a market value.

The first lotto will be X% inflation distributed randomly in a lottery payout structure.
The next lotto will be X% inflation " " " .
Etc.

If there is not enough new money flowing into the alt-coin then the market cap of the coin will decrease. If there is new money flowing in & it's faster than the rate of inflation the coins market cap will increase.


780
DAC PLAY / Re: Lotto POS alt-coin idea
« on: April 04, 2014, 10:30:32 pm »
Another point onceuponatime brought up in the other thread is that shareholder margins will be squeezed by future forks of the current lottery DAC, that seek to maximise player/charity value with no incentive for loyalty to the original.

However with the frictionless lottery if you get the calibration anywhere in the ball-park of optimal, then the value of both holding the alt-coin and the weekly payouts will increase rapidly,  meaning that soon we will have really huge jackpots which will be an insurmountable attraction to gamblers (& therefore value-investors too) vs. any fork/alternative that wants to start fromscratch.


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