BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: mf-tzo on July 05, 2015, 06:49:28 pm
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The Greeks have voted NO. Now it is not the time to sell your BTS!!
We need to ride BTC rally that is coming and not sell our BTS. People need to see what is BTS and why they are important..They need to see something else rising other than BTC and understand why it is rising.
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Do you know the percentages of the yes/no?
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I guess we find out how much further down the rabbit hole greece is willing to go.
It's only preliminary counts.. but they are at present 61% no. @onceuponatime
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Nearly a fifth of the votes counted, official figures showed 60.4 percent of Greeks on course to reject a bailout offer from creditors that was the official issue of the ballot. The figures showed the Yes vote drew 40.1 percent. An official projection of the final result is expected at 1800 GMT (1400 EDT).
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They certainly seem motivated! https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=75&v=mNxHc6qMotg
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Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly. Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.
LTC up >100% & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously :)
I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off.
In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners, followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself.
The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.
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Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly. Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.
LTC up >100% & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously :)
I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off.
In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners, followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself.
The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.
Meanwhile.. we have slipped out of the TOP 5 coins and into 6th place under Dash?!
http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares/
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Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly. Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.
LTC up >100% & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously :)
I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off.
In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners, followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself.
The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.
Meanwhile.. we have slipped out of the TOP 5 coins and into 6th place under Dash?!
http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares/
I think BitShares should get up there again, BTS 2.0 is great, it's just unfortunate timing that BitShares is in a bit of a waiting period atm.
I've also consistently said that immutable crypto-currencies would perform better in a financial crisis than crypto-companies. (More liquid BitAssets though should significantly change that.)
So you are now left with the frustrating situation where vastly inferior blockchains will rise rapidly in value when centralised currencies have problems despite having almost no development and being extremely costly while BitShares, who is literally blowing them away from a development standpoint and cost comparison has to get it's valuation up the hard way through blood, sweat and tears.
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I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.
meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$
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I would say that short term this isn't good for the price of bitshares.
Bitcoin and litecoin are going to rise because there will be a great deal of demand from Europe particularly on the BTC-e exchange which is based out of Bulgaria, the northern neighbor to Greece. All currencies on BTC-e will probably rise dramatically and any currencies where the exchange is predominantly denominated in BTC will also rise. The problem is that the primary market for bitshares is denominated in CNY and as result BTS won't get a boost from BTC price increase. More problematic is that seeing this rise in LTC and BTC Chinese traders will dump currencies they primarily trade (i.e Ripple, Doge and BTS) in order to ride the BTC and LTC waves. If you already sold BTS or Ripple good for you. If you're looking for a buying opportunity here's your change. If you're HODL keep on keeping on.
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I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.
meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$
I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.
People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)
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Yeah this is a big deal. I'm surprised the establishment powers couldn't sway the vote and I thought the propaganda machine would be in full force. Does this mean that Deutsche bank is going down soon? There were already signals with top-level executives jumping ship. Will that be the next Lehman Brothers trigger?
Credit markets are about confidence. Once people come to grips with the reality of unpayable debt or conscious defaults, credit spreads jump and there's a possibility of cascading defaults. (Most countries' sovereign debt is too great a burden already to pay back and that's not even including future false promises & entitlement liabilities. Just look at the US.. we have $18 Trillion in current debt and $100 Trillion in false future promises (ie. Medicare/Social Security)).
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out and I think that makes is more important to have these BitShares/crypto solutions as soon as possible. I do think we need to come up with a solution for decentralized uncollateralized credit so hopefully BitShares incorporates it in the future... (ie. local exchange trading system (LETs), trustlines, p2p web of trust credit money etc..) When the current centralized credit-based fiat monetary system fails, people will probably naturally look at hard-money solutions like Gold/Bitcoin/crypto/commodities, but I think the role of a decentralized credit money system will be incredibly important.
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I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.
meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$
I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.
People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)
I think that the referendum results clearly show that 60% of Greeks fully understand what is going on. They have questioned twice the current status, the underlying system and the flawed economics of austerity measures against the weakest links of European countries. I hope that we do go all the way, I hope that the politicians don't betray Greek people as they have historically have done millions of times and most importantly I hope that people in other countries also wake up and realize what is happening in our world. There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.
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I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.
meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$
I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.
People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)
I think that the referendum results clearly show that 60% of Greeks fully understand what is going on. They have questioned twice the current status, the underlying system and the flawed economics of austerity measures against the weakest links of European countries. I hope that we do go all the way, I hope that the politicians don't betray Greek people as they have historically have done millions of times and most importantly I hope that people in other countries also wake up and realize what is happening in our world. There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.
By underlying system I actually meant fiat money rather than austerity. And realistically it will be necessary to adjust the standard of living in Greece, no matter which way it goes.
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The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)
There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.
I'm not Greek but I certainly don't want to live in a democracy, the tyranny of the majority.
People do not vote on behalf of the common good, they vote on self interest. Capitalism caters to exactly this.
In a democracy the selfish wants of the majority rule over the minority who are forced to settle for less than they desire.
To quote Tuck Fheman "Good ideas don't require force"
Anarchy is the only way to sustained freedom imo. Anarcho-capitalism all the way
But rejecting a debt based economy and regaining sound money is a good first step, I hope it works out for the Greek people
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yes BTC and LTC are leading the possible Grexit rally, but that should be a boon for all reasonably useful crypto as people realize the value of keeping capital out of the traditional financial system.
on a personal note, i remember when BTC spiked back in 2013 and it got me more interested in rolling my profits into alt currencies. i think that'll be the case for many other people with this coming crypto bull market and BTS will surely be one of he winners.
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I'm in favor of anarcho-capitalism too but we need a lot of small steps until we get there. Democracy is indeed the tyrany of majority but what we had in Greece the last years was the tyrany of the few, if you had any kind of influence or power you could decide what was "good" and what was "bad". It was a few people with infuence that destroyed Greece the last few years and I'm not refering only to politicians. Going from oligarchy to democracy is a small first step.
What would be a posible next step? Maybe a change in the pensions system, the majority will probably ask for an increase in their pensions while the minority will ask to have access to the pension funds themselves so they can buy stocks and goverment bonds with those funds and later tell to the pensioners "we are sorry, your money are gone, puf! now we will have to decrease your pensions, it is not our fault and noone will go to jail!"
What if with blockchain technology like BitShares noone could steal the pensioneers funds and every pensioner would be able to get only what he paid for? no more, no less! No need to increase taxes in order to pay pensions. Isn't this a win-win situation? Charity could take care of the rest.
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Man I wish I could believe in something like anarcho capitalism, but the more I think about it the less I believe it will work. I don't see any way it prevents monopolies or ultimately prevent the use of force. To be perfectly honest, to me it seems to be a just as easily exploitable divide and conquer stage as any.
Somehow I keep ending up back at democracy as the best of the bad solutions, as long as the scale is small enough and you have properly functioning accessible transparent information (supposedly that's what journalism-traders were supposed to be doing originally). While the minority might dislike being forced by the majority, the minority forcing the majority is even worse.
One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.
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Man I wish I could believe in something like anarcho capitalism, but the more I think about it the less I believe it will work. I don't see any way it prevents monopolies or ultimately prevent the use of force. To be perfectly honest, to me it seems to be a just as easily exploitable divide and conquer stage as any.
Somehow I keep ending up back at democracy as the best of the bad solutions, as long as the scale is small enough and you have properly functioning accessible transparent information (supposedly that's what journalism-traders were supposed to be doing originally). While the minority might dislike being forced by the majority, the minority forcing the majority is even worse.
One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.
anarcho-capitalism is an excellent philosophy...i don't know of any more consistent with the highest moral ideal of universal peace. that said, there's no reason to require a 100% solution to all social issues to acknowledge this and to continuously advocate less violence in our society, particularly that caused by bad law.
ancap isn't a complete solution set to all social issues so much as it is a process for how people could pursue peaceful cooperation in a world that's become all too accepting of violence. Rather than thinking in a binary accept/reject framework for translating the philosophy into political ideology, we could simply accept NAP as a guiding principal and focus on where we can apply it to start unraveling the pervasive mentality that force is an acceptable means of organization.
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One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.
Regulation encourages the rent-seeking behaviour, what we have now is Crony Capitalism or Crapitalism which is more akin to fascism than true capitalism.
In today's system, gains are privatised and losses are socialised.
Capitalism does not work if businesses are not allowed to fail and pay the consequences of not providing a valuable product or service to the market.
The problem of force can be solved with arbitration and reputation based conflict resolution.
If your reputation and respect in the market can net you $$$$ in profits for providing a service, then stealing $$ by being dishonest is nowhere near profitable. Crypto and real-time audits with smart contracts go a very long way to ensuring that arbitration is honest.
Nearly everyone has a problem with anarchy, as it's been sold by the media as chaos.
All markets and people have "problems". The crux of the debate is this: Who can solve problems more efficiently; a small group of "elected" officials (elections are media popularity contests) contained by "regulation" (competition stifling)
OR collections of motivated individuals with stake in the game (their savings), bound only by the risk of failure that they are willing to bear.
People are STUPID and individuals are SMART. It all comes down to mob psychology. Statism results in an apathetic attitude and dependence on other people.
I'll never believe in democracy unless someone can convince me that humans can be motivated to thoroughly research the political parties (hooray, we'll throw a BIGGER party if you vote for us! Don't sweat the debt!) when they are not directly impacted. Political change happens slowly and ain't nobody got time for that.
People care what affects them NOW. When you vote in a democratic election there is no way that you can consider society at large, predict the future, evaluate the profit-potetial (or missed opportunities) of each option, conduct interviews to ascertain foreign policy or perform background checks on your potential rulers. You vote for who you (are told) will improve your life the most.
"Newspaper says he'll give builders $$$, so I'll vote for him and lobby against anyone offering equal treatment, coz im a builder"
Would you want the popular kids at highschool running your life???
Capitalism acknowledges this fact and aligns the incentives for an overall outcome of progress and success, as determined by the choices made by individuals within society.
This may be a little off-topic but in a forum of a freedom-centric platform I would like others to understand that anarchy and freedom is possible.
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One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.
Regulation encourages the rent-seeking behaviour, what we have now is Crony Capitalism or Crapitalism which is more akin to fascism than true capitalism.
In today's system, gains are privatised and losses are socialised.
Capitalism does not work if businesses are not allowed to fail and pay the consequences of not providing a valuable product or service to the market.
The problem of force can be solved with arbitration and reputation based conflict resolution.
If your reputation and respect in the market can net you $$$$ in profits for providing a service, then stealing $$ by being dishonest is nowhere near profitable. Crypto and real-time audits with smart contracts go a very long way to ensuring that arbitration is honest.
Nearly everyone has a problem with anarchy, as it's been sold by the media as chaos.
All markets and people have "problems". The crux of the debate is this: Who can solve problems more efficiently; a small group of "elected" officials (elections are media popularity contests) contained by "regulation" (competition stifling)
OR collections of motivated individuals with stake in the game (their savings), bound only by the risk of failure that they are willing to bear.
People are STUPID and individuals are SMART. It all comes down to mob psychology. Statism results in an apathetic attitude and dependence on other people.
I'll never believe in democracy unless someone can convince me that humans can be motivated to thoroughly research the political parties (hooray, we'll throw a BIGGER party if you vote for us! Don't sweat the debt!) when they are not directly impacted. Political change happens slowly and ain't nobody got time for that.
People care what affects them NOW. When you vote in a democratic election there is no way that you can consider society at large, predict the future, evaluate the profit-potetial (or missed opportunities) of each option, conduct interviews to ascertain foreign policy or perform background checks on your potential rulers. You vote for who you (are told) will improve your life the most.
"Newspaper says he'll give builders $$$, so I'll vote for him and lobby against anyone offering equal treatment, coz im a builder"
Would you want the popular kids at highschool running your life???
Capitalism acknowledges this fact and aligns the incentives for an overall outcome of progress and success, as determined by the choices made by individuals within society.
This may be a little off-topic but in a forum of a freedom-centric platform I would like others to understand that anarchy and freedom is possible.
To continue the tangent, I know what anarchy is and I agree it's not chaos. Honestly I personally have no problem at all with chaos and people having to be completely self-sufficient and always adapting and ever changing, but I realize that my point of view (of an ideal world) will never gain traction with the majority.
I'm all for breaking up the central planning monstrosities (in all areas not just in the form of nation states) we have now into many small ones. Democracy can work given enough transparency and information plus no micromanagement and no centralization of power. Or to use the modern term bottom-up instead of top-down-society.
During my time in the military I was struck by the concept of Auftragstaktik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics) and I think decentralization like that would be the key to creating a better society on many levels, including business. Unfortunately the Cold-War utterly destroyed that line of thinking and seeing the same fear-mongering from that era being reintroduced I'm not too optimistic about the chances of the concept of decentralization of power catching hold anytime soon.
Time and time again I'm shocked at how people as a whole move towards cult-like OCD(control freak) behavior, be it forming political parties which I agree completely fucks up a democracy, but also cults like for example the Apple I-Phone users. Just about every party I go to, I am harassed by Apple users trying to convince me that it's okay that I don't actually control or own anything on that particular device and that I should just accept that as being superior and who needs options like fore example being able to just copy MY files/photographs to any device I want via USB. Sorry went a bit to far off topic there in a personal rant, but it does illustrate my point about people in general seemingly being unappreciative of independence and opposed or at the very least not supporters of the loss of their freedom.
Funny now that I mention this, one of the mental experiments I use to see if a political system or any other form of organization would work, is if it would be able to resist the coming of the Apple I-phone cult and their erosion of personal freedom ;D.
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During my time in the military I was struck by the concept of Auftragstaktik and I think decentralization like that would be the key to creating a better society on many levels, including business. Unfortunately the Cold-War utterly destroyed that line of thinking and seeing the same fear-mongering from that era being reintroduced I'm not too optimistic about the chances of the concept of decentralization of power catching hold anyti
Auftragstaktik - Mission-type tactics where goals, resources and time constraints are dictated, but lower down command are allowed to independently achieve the aims without micromanagement (correct me if this isn't what you meant).
I would agree with you that democracy could work if power was far more decentralized, except that some brave guys in America tried that and it didn't even last 100 years before their republic got fucked up.
Sustaining freedom under such a republic requires the teaching and continued investment on critical thinking. Good luck with that! I reiterate that humans care about themselves, and I believe that a peaceful society will emerge as the summation/aggregate of happy individuals who have the choice to govern their own lives as they see fit.
If power is there to be grabbed, then sooner or later a group of people are going to conspire to take it. If there was some way to make the media honest and ensure they tell people the 'truth' then maybe it could work.
BM posted an idea for a prediction market based journalism platform (can't find it, all the links are moved :/), that would function like Peertracks but for articles and such.
Maybe that is one way to make it work, but such systems of control (republics) aren't essential so why risk it all over again? What would the Founding Fathers do if they could try again? I'm not sure, but I bet they didn't predict just how HUGE an influence the media would gain over us, everyone has a bug in their pocket and a screen telling them what's "cool". That would need to be changed first
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Auftragstaktik - Mission-type tactics where goals, resources and time constraints are dictated, but lower down command are allowed to independently achieve the aims without micromanagement (correct me if this isn't what you meant).
That's as good of a description I've seen anywhere else, I think you got it down.
I would agree with you that democracy could work if power was far more decentralized, except that some brave guys in America tried that and it didn't even last 100 years before their republic got fucked up.
Sustaining freedom under such a republic requires the teaching and continued investment on critical thinking. Good luck with that! I reiterate that humans care about themselves, and I believe that a peaceful society will emerge as the summation/aggregate of happy individuals who have the choice to govern their own lives as they see fit.
If power is there to be grabbed, then sooner or later a group of people are going to conspire to take it. If there was some way to make the media honest and ensure they tell people the 'truth' then maybe it could work.
BM posted an idea for a prediction market based journalism platform (can't find it, all the links are moved :/), that would function like Peertracks but for articles and such.
Maybe that is one way to make it work, but such systems of control (republics) aren't essential so why risk it all over again? What would the Founding Fathers do if they could try again? I'm not sure, but I bet they didn't predict just how HUGE an influence the media would gain over us, everyone has a bug in their pocket and a screen telling them what's "cool". That would need to be changed first
I agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.
(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)
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I agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.
(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)
I do that too, +5 can get tedious!
How do you mean? Could you rephrase?
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I agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.
(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)
I do that too, +5 can get tedious!
How do you mean? Could you rephrase?
I meant that I was feeling down for a long time, realizing the same things you described, but not being able to work out a solution for all that time.
Seeing people unwilling to even attempt critical thinking, also having maybe childish and naive hopes for all the things computers, internet and gaming could help achieve and then watching it all turn into passive consumer hell, was making me feel down for quite a while now. I had high hopes when I ran into GNU/linux and the bazaar community model and wanted to see the same thing applied to fields outside of the realm of software. However hearing the seemingly endless complaining from people being confronted with [gasp] choice I admit I lost a lot of faith in humanity. Seeing how the majority of people can't be arsed to reach out and grab the stuff that's handed to them on a silver platter, but instead start complaining, made me lose quite a bit of confidence in humankind and a peaceful solution. I thought humans had become institutionalized and only a crisis like war or disease might be able to wake them up.
The possibilities of crypto, shared ledger consensus and maybe most importantly the use of incentives I discovered together with bitcoin and bitshares, have rekindled my hope for a solution.
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Interesting discussion! This is only my view today, which could change tomorrow!
Allow an ideal free system to evolve from any initial power or wealth distribution, and over time it will naturally approach a power law distribution, where most is in the hands of a minority. But as long as all agents are free and non-violent, this is a reasonable outcome, including the existence of monopolies, that still only survive in the private market as long as they satisfy the needs of other people. In principle, those at the top of the power/wealth distribution are those that have and continue to serve society's demands the best. The resulting spread comes down to differences in skill, effort and unavoidably, luck.
That's all in principle. The problem is that an element of those with the most power will always seek to cement that power through depriving the choices of those without it, and will bend and reform the system to meet this purpose. Thus even a theoretically sound system ends up being corrupted by human nature. You can alternatively set up a system where power is maintained more equally, but such a non-equilibrium can only then be sustained by the force of an authority (e.g. socialism), which is then a contradiction that will ultimately be exploited.
So power struggles are not a problem of which system, as all systems converge eventually toward abuse of power, which in the end is only corrected by a revolution, with a new optimism, beginning a cycle anew. The technology (e.g. block-chains) only allows different kinds of systems to be tried, but it does not offer any panacea to these basic problems. Different systems will come and go, and the debates over which labels are best will continue. Some systems are less corruptible for longer than others, which is about the best we can aim for.
As I see it, the only lasting solution left is not a system at all, but a very human characteristic - learned wisdom.
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I agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.
(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)
I do that too, +5 can get tedious!
How do you mean? Could you rephrase?
The possibilities of crypto, shared ledger consensus and maybe most importantly the use of incentives I discovered together with bitcoin and bitshares, have rekindled my hope for a solution.
Same here!
Innovation, innovation, innovation! How much sooner would a solution arise if nobody could dictate what is or isn't allowed?
including the existence of monopolies, that still only survive in the private market as long as they satisfy the needs of other people.
Many will complain of the possibility of monopolies in a deregulated system but fail to see how competition will not allow unfavourable businesses to retain their power. They also don't seem to care about the monopolies that have already bought their governments.
All this stuff is very complicated to the uninitiated and I think real-world examples are going to be needed before most will see what is possible. Humans fear the unknown and that which others declare 'scary', there has to be some way to leverage to this fact for the benefit of bts/freedom.
As I see it, the only lasting solution left is not a system at all, but a very human characteristic - learned wisdom.
Can we get incentivized critical thinking baked into the blockchain?
A prediction market of some kind perhaps, although I'm not even sure how you'd teach it with a face-to-face lesson so I've no idea if it's possible. How could the 'correct' answer be determined in order to reward those 'doing it right'?
If something like that was somehow in the US Constitution then maybe the republic would have remained free'er. I think methods to encourage wisdom should be explored, and fallible entities removed from the equation
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Interesting discussion! This is only my view today, which could change tomorrow!
Allow an ideal free system to evolve from any initial power or wealth distribution, and over time it will naturally approach a power law distribution, where most is in the hands of a minority. But as long as all agents are free and non-violent, this is a reasonable outcome, including the existence of monopolies, that still only survive in the private market as long as they satisfy the needs of other people. In principle, those at the top of the power/wealth distribution are those that have and continue to serve society's demands the best. The resulting spread comes down to differences in skill, effort and unavoidably, luck.
That's all in principle. The problem is that an element of those with the most power will always seek to cement that power through depriving the choices of those without it, and will bend and reform the system to meet this purpose. Thus even a theoretically sound system ends up being corrupted by human nature. You can alternatively set up a system where power is maintained more equally, but such a non-equilibrium can only then be sustained by the force of an authority (e.g. socialism), which is then a contradiction that will ultimately be exploited.
So power struggles are not a problem of which system, as all systems converge eventually toward abuse of power, which in the end is only corrected by a revolution, with a new optimism, beginning a cycle anew. The technology (e.g. block-chains) only allows different kinds of systems to be tried, but it does not offer any panacea to these basic problems. Different systems will come and go, and the debates over which labels are best will continue. Some systems are less corruptible for longer than others, which is about the best we can aim for.
As I see it, the only lasting solution left is not a system at all, but a very human characteristic - learned wisdom.
the key problem as i see it that you mentioned is when those with early economic or other social successes use their newfound power to cement their positions--extracting wealth from others through coercive mechanisms and preventing future competition or challenges to their roles. this is typically the domain of governments and their crony business cartels. there's nothing inherently wrong with large wealth asymmetries, so long as they are derived by providing value in a nonviolent manner without forcefully restricting new competition.
one way i view orders of magnitude wealth asymmetries is that they provide lottery-type incentives to fuel dreams and induce somewhat irrational entrepreneurial activity (given that most startups fail, it's somewhat irrational to risk capital and time)...the asymmetric payoffs make this tradeoff interesting to people with the right risk-seeking profiles. humanity benefits from irrational risk-seekers dreaming of massive payoffs, most of them failing, and some of them creating awesome new things that are wildly successful.
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I think this a must read...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/greferendum-shocker-tsipras-intended-lose-and-now-trapped-his-success
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I think this a must read...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/greferendum-shocker-tsipras-intended-lose-and-now-trapped-his-success
Yeah, interesting to see how this will play out.
It could all be part of a genius plan (https://youtu.be/Zvl9N9GdraQ) however.
On a serious note, what really is messed up is that just about every Joe Schmoe (and even little teeny JoeyD as well) knew this was going to happen right from the start, so the elite did everything in their power to prevent democratic recourse throughout Europe. What really bugs me is that key actors in the formation of the Euro-zone like the Dutch prime minister Kok (and he deserves all the connotation his name receives in English) and Kohl from Germany also knew that the whole concept was broken. They deliberately went through anyway, so that "they" (as in other people) would be forced to come up with a solution.
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I think this a must read...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/greferendum-shocker-tsipras-intended-lose-and-now-trapped-his-success
Yeah, interesting to see how this will play out.
It could all be part of a genius plan (https://youtu.be/Zvl9N9GdraQ) however.
On a serious note, what really is messed up is that just about every Joe Schmoe (and even little teeny JoeyD as well) knew this was going to happen right from the start, so the elite did everything in their power to prevent democratic recourse throughout Europe. What really bugs me is that key actors in the formation of the Euro-zone like the Dutch prime minister Kok (and he deserves all the connotation his name receives in English) and Kohl from Germany also knew that the whole concept was broken. They deliberately went through anyway, so that "they" (as in other people) would be forced to come up with a solution.
yeah it's messed up that < 1% of the population at the top gets to milk everyone else with either taxes or the purchasing power theft of the printing press to fund stupidity.
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ZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff (https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU) on the whole Greek euro mess.
While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.
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ZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff (https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU) on the whole Greek euro mess.
While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.
i enjoy reading ZH as much as the next guy, but i do find them to be rather overzealous in posting predictions and viewing events in a very negative lens. There are a variety of scenarios that could unfold here: Greeks agree to some haircut and payment reschedule despite the referendum, the country defaults and possibly restructures on its debt, it abandons the euro, and/or it gets kicked out of the EU completely. there are probably other scenarios too, but in general i don't see why debt default has to mean currency abandonment (sovereign default ought to be independent of currency), nor do i see why Greece would have to leave the trade and open border treaties, even if they completely abandoned the euro?
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ZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff (https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU) on the whole Greek euro mess.
While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.
i enjoy reading ZH as much as the next guy, but i do find them to be rather overzealous in posting predictions and viewing events in a very negative lens. There are a variety of scenarios that could unfold here: Greeks agree to some haircut and payment reschedule despite the referendum, the country defaults and possibly restructures on its debt, it abandons the euro, and/or it gets kicked out of the EU completely. there are probably other scenarios too, but in general i don't see why debt default has to mean currency abandonment (sovereign default ought to be independent of currency), nor do i see why Greece would have to leave the trade and open border treaties, even if they completely abandoned the euro?
The single currency thing is a flawed concept no matter who says it. It's an attempted coup and trying to force all these completely different and incompatible cultures in the exact same format is a ludicrous concept. Plus wasn't the whole central planning thing supposed to be a flawed concept?
I agree about zerohedge and I don't share all of their views, however not many media-agencies seem to be all that interested in showing both sides of the stories in my country. It's also to bad that it's not only zerohedge that's overzealous and too extreme apparently. I completely agree with your points and would have wished the discussion was about how to fix things or make a clean start. But alas that's not the way things seem to be going, both sides are to blame for that in my humble opinion.
And if they wanted to blame and haircut somebody they should have done that at the shoulderlevel with all the banks and gamblers who consciously and willingly created this mess. They damn well knew that their loans were toxic and they are trying to make a buck out of the institutions bailing them out of it. That sounds like high-treason to me and people like that deserve a whole lot more terrorist-treament than they are getting. But instead they have their hands way up the euro-politicians asses so they are now moving their mouths.
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ZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff (https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU) on the whole Greek euro mess.
While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.
i enjoy reading ZH as much as the next guy, but i do find them to be rather overzealous in posting predictions and viewing events in a very negative lens. There are a variety of scenarios that could unfold here: Greeks agree to some haircut and payment reschedule despite the referendum, the country defaults and possibly restructures on its debt, it abandons the euro, and/or it gets kicked out of the EU completely. there are probably other scenarios too, but in general i don't see why debt default has to mean currency abandonment (sovereign default ought to be independent of currency), nor do i see why Greece would have to leave the trade and open border treaties, even if they completely abandoned the euro?
The single currency thing is a flawed concept no matter who says it. It's an attempted coup and trying to force all these completely different and incompatible cultures in the exact same format is a ludicrous concept. Plus wasn't the whole central planning thing supposed to be a flawed concept?
I agree about zerohedge and I don't share all of their views, however not many media-agencies seem to be all that interested in showing both sides of the stories in my country. It's also to bad that it's not only zerohedge that's overzealous and too extreme apparently. I completely agree with your points and would have wished the discussion was about how to fix things or make a clean start. But alas that's not the way things seem to be going, both sides are to blame for that in my humble opinion.
And if they wanted to blame and haircut somebody they should have done that at the shoulderlevel with all the banks and gamblers who consciously and willingly created this mess. They damn well knew that their loans were toxic and they are trying to make a buck out of the institutions bailing them out of it. That sounds like high-treason to me and people like that deserve a whole lot more terrorist-treament than they are getting. But instead they have their hands way up the euro-politicians asses so they are now moving their mouths.
yup! the crime of the century has been governments guaranteeing private bets.
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When I mentioned the word "democracy" Pernie jumped in and spoke about anarcho-capitalism..In the beggining I was what is he talking about..Now I understand..
I never felt so stupid living in "democracy"...My God democracy apparently is an illusion..I realise that now...
The Greek referendum will remain in history as the world's most unnecessary and useless and pointless referendum..I never felt so ashamed beeing Greek in my life..
People voted clearly NO. and by voting NO it was obvious that they
1. Do not want new austerity measures
2. Do not really care if we left the EURO
And the fucking loser politicians, turned a NO vote to more and more and more austerity measures. Not only that but they are clearly negotiating of selling and giving the national property.. Let's give a couple of islands in order to stay in the Euro...OOOhhh my God...I really can't believe this is happening in my country...
I am so pissed off right now..I can't believe how someone is urging people to vote NO, says for the last 6 months that Greece will not stay in Euro at any cost, people clearly vote in favor of not giving up and then he turns a NO vote to the biggest "mnimonio" ever just because Markets didn't react very negatively to a Grexit and is he is afraid to take the road he was preaching for the last 6 months..Of course the markets would not react unless Grexit really does happen you f..ing moron...
He is planning to destroy the farmers, agriculture, tourism, shipowners, retirements, health and insurance, sell the national property, increase immensely the taxation..He really hasn't left anything not to destroy because he is afraid to issue IOUs and get out of the EU..
I will never ever keep another Euro in my bank account and I refuse to be part of this corrupted system..Go Crypto Go!!
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Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
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When I mentioned the word "democracy" Pernie jumped in and spoke about anarcho-capitalism..In the beggining I was what is he talking about..Now I understand..
I never felt so stupid living in "democracy"...My God democracy apparently is an illusion..I realise that now...
The Greek referendum will remain in history as the world's most unnecessary and useless and pointless referendum..I never felt so ashamed beeing Greek in my life..
People voted clearly NO. and by voting NO it was obvious that they
1. Do not want new austerity measures
2. Do not really care if we left the EURO
And the fucking loser politicians, turned a NO vote to more and more and more austerity measures. Not only that but they are clearly negotiating of selling and giving the national property.. Let's give a couple of islands in order to stay in the Euro...OOOhhh my God...I really can't believe this is happening in my country...
I am so pissed off right now..I can't believe how someone is urging people to vote NO, says for the last 6 months that Greece will not stay in Euro at any cost, people clearly vote in favor of not giving up and then he turns a NO vote to the biggest "mnimonio" ever just because Markets didn't react very negatively to a Grexit and is he is afraid to take the road he was preaching for the last 6 months..Of course the markets would not react unless Grexit really does happen you f..ing moron...
He is planning to destroy the farmers, agriculture, tourism, shipowners, retirements, health and insurance, sell the national property, increase immensely the taxation..He really hasn't left anything not to destroy because he is afraid to issue IOUs and get out of the EU..
I will never ever keep another Euro in my bank account and I refuse to be part of this corrupted system..Go Crypto Go!!
Are you seriously saying that I've convinced you of anarcho-capitalism >> democracy?? :D
When I wrote it I remember thinking 'this isn't going to change anyone's view but I'd like to be able to say I put my reasoning out there'
I'm afraid that bankrupting Greece and then raiding it's public resources was probably the plan all along. It's really terrible.
If people don't start to take notice or care what's happening to PEOPLE JUST LIKE THEM in other countries then I think a few small islands may seem trivial compared to the landgrab that could be coming.
"That debt we gave you looks pretty hefty... How about you give us all your land-rights and veto-power over any laws you make and we'll call it... not 'even' but yknow, we'll go and fuck someone else for a bit"
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When I mentioned the word "democracy" Pernie jumped in and spoke about anarcho-capitalism..In the beggining I was what is he talking about..Now I understand..
I never felt so stupid living in "democracy"...My God democracy apparently is an illusion..I realise that now...
The Greek referendum will remain in history as the world's most unnecessary and useless and pointless referendum..I never felt so ashamed beeing Greek in my life..
People voted clearly NO. and by voting NO it was obvious that they
1. Do not want new austerity measures
2. Do not really care if we left the EURO
And the fucking loser politicians, turned a NO vote to more and more and more austerity measures. Not only that but they are clearly negotiating of selling and giving the national property.. Let's give a couple of islands in order to stay in the Euro...OOOhhh my God...I really can't believe this is happening in my country...
I am so pissed off right now..I can't believe how someone is urging people to vote NO, says for the last 6 months that Greece will not stay in Euro at any cost, people clearly vote in favor of not giving up and then he turns a NO vote to the biggest "mnimonio" ever just because Markets didn't react very negatively to a Grexit and is he is afraid to take the road he was preaching for the last 6 months..Of course the markets would not react unless Grexit really does happen you f..ing moron...
He is planning to destroy the farmers, agriculture, tourism, shipowners, retirements, health and insurance, sell the national property, increase immensely the taxation..He really hasn't left anything not to destroy because he is afraid to issue IOUs and get out of the EU..
I will never ever keep another Euro in my bank account and I refuse to be part of this corrupted system..Go Crypto Go!!
Are you seriously saying that I've convinced you of anarcho-capitalism >> democracy?? :D
When I wrote it I remember thinking 'this isn't going to change anyone's view but I'd like to be able to say I put my reasoning out there'
I'm afraid that bankrupting Greece and then raiding it's public resources was probably the plan all along. It's really terrible.
If people don't start to take notice or care what's happening to PEOPLE JUST LIKE THEM in other countries then I think a few small islands may seem trivial compared to the landgrab that could be coming.
"That debt we gave you looks pretty hefty... How about you give us all your land-rights and veto-power over any laws you make and we'll call it... not 'even' but yknow, we'll go and fuck someone else for a bit"
While I'm not a fan of Max Keiser, I do have to hand it to him when he described what's going on as "leveraged buyouts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveraged_buyout)", which is sorta like naked short selling a country so you can buy and take it over for practically free. First a couple of small pilots and now they are scaling up. Greece will not be the last.
I'm really disappointed in the general populace, so much for internet preventing brainwashing on a grand scale, brainwashing seems to be easier then ever before.
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i just want to say you guys are awesome and i'm happy more people are waking up to the farce that is government. Viva a free, peaceful ancap world built on crypto!
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I shared this story in my facebook feed today:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/13/euro-family-angela-merkel-greek-bailout
TLDR:
The machinations of financial institutions (the troika) have been exposed as much as the institutions themselves. Who runs these banks, and for whom? Twitter slogans talk of the three world wars: the first waged with guns, the second with tanks and this third world war waged by banks. Extreme? Well, there clearly is more than one way to take over a country.
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I shared this story in my facebook feed today:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/13/euro-family-angela-merkel-greek-bailout
TLDR:
The machinations of financial institutions (the troika) have been exposed as much as the institutions themselves. Who runs these banks, and for whom? Twitter slogans talk of the three world wars: the first waged with guns, the second with tanks and this third world war waged by banks. Extreme? Well, there clearly is more than one way to take over a country.
the sooner we create a superior peaceful financial system in parallel, the better.
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A good interview with the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece)
The interview was done before Tsipras made the infamous deal last Sunday but still it gives some interesting insight of what's going on behind the scenes.
And it looks like Varoufakis expected this to happen as he says:
It wouldn’t shock me [if Tsipras] stays on and accepts a very bad deal.
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A good interview with the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece)
The interview was done before Tsipras made the infamous deal last Sunday but still it gives some interesting insight of what's going on behind the scenes.
And it looks like Varoufakis expected this to happen as he says:
It wouldn’t shock me [if Tsipras] stays on and accepts a very bad deal.
Peter Schiff made some interesting comments about how Greece was going to default one way or another and that the politicians' dominant strategy was to go with the option they could blame on others. Refusing to accept a deal would mean no funds for the bloated government and lots of domestic defaults and forced austerity (pensions cut, govt workers fired, welfare cut, etc.); except this outcome comes with no scapegoats, just the inevitable consequences of a rational choice to default. The troika deal means austerity, as well, but one that domestic politicians can continue to pin on foreigners for the inevitable bad times to come.
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A good interview with the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece)
The interview was done before Tsipras made the infamous deal last Sunday but still it gives some interesting insight of what's going on behind the scenes.
And it looks like Varoufakis expected this to happen as he says:
It wouldn’t shock me [if Tsipras] stays on and accepts a very bad deal.
Yeah I read that already when I checked Varoufakis twitter feed to see what he had to say.
While I found some points in that interview interesting, it also gives the impression that Varoufakis is new to politics or people in general. I'm surprised that both Tsipras and Varoufakis seem to have been completely surprised by these political(human) schemes. I wonder what their backgrounds are, because I've dealt with so many of these kinds of backstabbing self-serving assholes that I can't even remember the last time I met somebody who had some form of moral standard or interest in helping someone or genuinely attempted to do the best job he could.
Where can I go that you can actually survive while being naive like that? I'm pretty exhausted dealing with bloodsuckers all the time, so I could use a little break.
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I have a friend who's node is shutting down because businesses will no longer accept credit cards issued from Greek banks. :-\
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I have a friend who's node is shutting down because businesses will no longer accept credit cards issued from Greek banks. :-\
unreal! as i always say, humanity needs crypto!
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This keeps getting more interesting...
http://www.ekathimerini.com/199945/article/ekathimerini/news/varoufakis-claims-had-approval-to-plan-parallel-banking-system
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This keeps getting more interesting...
http://www.ekathimerini.com/199945/article/ekathimerini/news/varoufakis-claims-had-approval-to-plan-parallel-banking-system
they're not the only government in history to plot mass theft, nor will they be the last. again, humanity needs crypto!