Greek referendum

[cylonmaker2053]

Man I wish I could believe in something like anarcho capitalism, but the more I think about it the less I believe it will work. I don't see any way it prevents monopolies or ultimately prevent the use of force. To be perfectly honest, to me it seems to be a just as easily exploitable divide and conquer stage as any.

Somehow I keep ending up back at democracy as the best of the bad solutions, as long as the scale is small enough and you have properly functioning accessible transparent information (supposedly that's what journalism-traders were supposed to be doing originally). While the minority might dislike being forced by the majority, the minority forcing the majority is even worse.

One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.

anarcho-capitalism is an excellent philosophy...i don't know of any more consistent with the highest moral ideal of universal peace. that said, there's no reason to require a 100% solution to all social issues to acknowledge this and to continuously advocate less violence in our society, particularly that caused by bad law.

ancap isn't a complete solution set to all social issues so much as it is a process for how people could pursue peaceful cooperation in a world that's become all too accepting of violence. Rather than thinking in a binary accept/reject framework for translating the philosophy into political ideology, we could simply accept NAP as a guiding principal and focus on where we can apply it to start unraveling the pervasive mentality that force is an acceptable means of organization.

[JoeyD]

Man I wish I could believe in something like anarcho capitalism, but the more I think about it the less I believe it will work. I don't see any way it prevents monopolies or ultimately prevent the use of force. To be perfectly honest, to me it seems to be a just as easily exploitable divide and conquer stage as any.

Somehow I keep ending up back at democracy as the best of the bad solutions, as long as the scale is small enough and you have properly functioning accessible transparent information (supposedly that's what journalism-traders were supposed to be doing originally). While the minority might dislike being forced by the majority, the minority forcing the majority is even worse.

One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.

[chryspano]

I'm in favor of anarcho-capitalism too but we need a lot of small steps until we get there. Democracy is indeed the tyrany of majority but what we had in Greece the last years was the tyrany of the few, if you had any kind of influence or power you could decide what was "good" and what was "bad". It was a few people with infuence that destroyed Greece the last few years and I'm not refering only to politicians. Going from oligarchy to democracy is a small first step.

What would be a posible next step? Maybe a change in the pensions system, the majority will probably ask for an increase in their pensions while the minority will ask to have access to the pension funds themselves so they can buy stocks and goverment bonds with those funds and later tell to the pensioners "we are sorry, your money are gone, puf! now we will have to decrease your pensions, it is not our fault and noone will go to jail!" 

What if with blockchain technology like BitShares noone could steal the pensioneers funds and every pensioner would be able to get only what he paid for? no more, no less! No need to increase taxes in order to pay pensions. Isn't this a win-win situation? Charity could take care of the rest.

[cylonmaker2053]

yes BTC and LTC are leading the possible Grexit rally, but that should be a boon for all reasonably useful crypto as people realize the value of keeping capital out of the traditional financial system.

on a personal note, i remember when BTC spiked back in 2013 and it got me more interested in rolling my profits into alt currencies. i think that'll be the case for many other people with this coming crypto bull market and BTS will surely be one of he winners.

[Permie]

The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)

There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.

I'm not Greek but I certainly don't want to live in a democracy, the tyranny of the majority.
People do not vote on behalf of the common good, they vote on self interest. Capitalism caters to exactly this.
In a democracy the selfish wants of the majority rule over the minority who are forced to settle for less than they desire.
To quote Tuck Fheman "Good ideas don't require force"

Anarchy is the only way to sustained freedom imo. Anarcho-capitalism all the way

But rejecting a debt based economy and regaining sound money is a good first step, I hope it works out for the Greek people

[Frodo]

I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.

meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$

I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.

People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)

I think that the referendum results clearly show that 60% of Greeks fully understand what is going on. They have questioned twice the current status, the underlying system and the flawed economics of austerity measures against the weakest links of European countries. I hope that we do go all the way, I hope that the politicians don't betray Greek people as they have historically have done millions of times and most importantly I hope that people in other countries also wake up and realize what is happening in our world. There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.

By underlying system I actually meant fiat money rather than austerity. And realistically it will be necessary to adjust the  standard of living in Greece, no matter which way it goes.

[mf-tzo]

I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.

meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$

I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.

People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)

I think that the referendum results clearly show that 60% of Greeks fully understand what is going on. They have questioned twice the current status, the underlying system and the flawed economics of austerity measures against the weakest links of European countries. I hope that we do go all the way, I hope that the politicians don't betray Greek people as they have historically have done millions of times and most importantly I hope that people in other countries also wake up and realize what is happening in our world. There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.

[merivercap]

Yeah this is a big deal.  I'm surprised the establishment powers couldn't sway the vote and I thought the propaganda machine would be in full force.  Does this mean that Deutsche bank is going down soon?  There were already signals with top-level executives jumping ship.  Will that be the next Lehman Brothers trigger?

Credit markets are about confidence.  Once people come to grips with the reality of unpayable debt or conscious defaults, credit spreads jump and there's a possibility of cascading defaults.  (Most countries' sovereign debt is too great a burden already to pay back and that's not even including future false promises & entitlement liabilities.  Just look at the US.. we have $18 Trillion in current debt and $100 Trillion in false future promises (ie. Medicare/Social Security)).

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out and I think that makes is more important to have these BitShares/crypto solutions as soon as possible.  I do think we need to come up with a solution for decentralized uncollateralized credit so hopefully BitShares incorporates it in the future... (ie. local exchange trading system (LETs), trustlines, p2p web of trust credit money etc..)  When the current centralized credit-based fiat monetary system fails, people will probably naturally look at hard-money solutions like Gold/Bitcoin/crypto/commodities, but I think the role of a decentralized credit money system will be incredibly important.

[Frodo]

I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.

meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$

I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.

People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)

[clout]

I would say that short term this isn't good for the price of bitshares.

Bitcoin and litecoin are going to rise because there will be a great deal of demand from Europe particularly on the BTC-e exchange which is based out of Bulgaria, the northern neighbor to Greece. All currencies on BTC-e will probably rise dramatically and any currencies where the exchange is predominantly denominated in BTC will also rise. The problem is that the primary market for bitshares is denominated in CNY and as result BTS won't get a boost from BTC price increase. More problematic is that seeing this rise in LTC and BTC Chinese traders will dump currencies they primarily trade (i.e Ripple, Doge and BTS) in order to ride the BTC and LTC waves. If you already sold BTS or Ripple good for you. If you're looking for a buying opportunity here's your change. If you're HODL keep on keeping on.

[Akado]

I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.

meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$

[Empirical1.2]

Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly.  Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.

LTC up >100%  & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously
 

I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off.

In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners,  followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself.

The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.

Meanwhile.. we have slipped out of the TOP 5 coins and into 6th place under Dash?!

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares/

I think BitShares should get up there again, BTS 2.0 is great,  it's just unfortunate timing that BitShares is in a bit of a waiting period atm.

I've also consistently said that immutable crypto-currencies would perform better in a financial crisis than crypto-companies. (More liquid BitAssets though should significantly change that.)

So you are now left with the frustrating situation where vastly inferior blockchains will rise rapidly in value when centralised currencies have problems despite having almost no development and being extremely costly while BitShares, who is literally blowing them away from a development standpoint and cost comparison has to get it's valuation up the hard way through blood, sweat and tears.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly.  Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.

LTC up >100%  & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously
 

I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off.

In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners,  followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself.

The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.

Meanwhile.. we have slipped out of the TOP 5 coins and into 6th place under Dash?!

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares/

[Empirical1.2]

Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly.  Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.

LTC up >100%  & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously
 

I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off.

In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners,  followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself.

The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.

[canucklehead]

They certainly seem motivated! https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=75&v=mNxHc6qMotg