BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 09:08:14 am

Title: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 09:08:14 am
Back in November - December I think Bytemaster said "NXT looks promising". That statement was enough for me. I looked at it and bought some thousands at ridiculous prices. Unfortunately NXT was very buggy back then, I wasn't feeling comfortably leaving them in an exchange so soon after I tripled my ridiculously small investment back then I sold them (I wish now I haven't  :( :() 

To the point. NXT since then has done a tremendous progress for the non tech guys like me and what I really like about them is that they have almost daily a market update report. They talk about prices of alts, NXT price speculation, graphs etc...

Can we do something similar here? It would be nice if some experienced crypto investors illuminate the rest of us about what they think, how they value especially PTS/AGS, future DACs but also other altcoins that pop out all the time. Apparently this community has a lot of "geniuses" and it would be very nice to hear their thoughts about the market on a regular basis.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on May 30, 2014, 09:18:17 am
To the point. NXT since then has done a tremendous progress for the non tech guys like me and what I really like about them is that they have almost daily a market update report. They talk about prices of alts, NXT price speculation, graphs etc...

Can we do something similar here?
Wouldn't make sense at the moment as the product is not yet released. Once we have product, the eco and tech talk will for sure start by its own :-)
Quote
It would be nice if some experienced crypto investors illuminate the rest of us about what they think, how they value especially PTS/AGS, future DACs but also other altcoins that pop out all the time. Apparently this community has a lot of "geniuses" and it would be very nice to hear their thoughts about the market on a regular basis.
- Ehm, .. bitshares is not meant to be an altcoin, as it will *not* be a currency!
 - All theses recent altcoin basicaly have a few new features (i.e. multi-pool, anonymous sends,...) and most use POS already. Besides that, nothing new has appeared.
 - AGS do not 'have value' because you cannot (an will never be able to) sell them.
 - Personally, I don't give investment proposals! That's up to everybody to read and decide.

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 09:44:32 am
Quote
Wouldn't make sense at the moment as the product is not yet released. Once we have product, the eco and tech talk will for sure start by its own :-)

I disagree! Even if PTS is not an altcoin it is a share with tradable value. It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that. I have also missed the argument that after the snapshot everyone would sell their PTS and instead I kept on buying... Most will say " that's your problem you didn't make proper research" but the NXT community "protects" their investors with this market update thread. They don't have to go around the whole forum to look around for information and make their judgments. If there was a thread back then and most of the people were saying the same things I wouldn't have made these mistakes.

BM, Stan and others, including you Xeroc, to me are very respectable voices and I take now very seriously every single small comment you guys make!

I think that we should start the market update thread as soon as possible in order to protect long term investors like me for future losses like that. The "company" or the "investors" or the "community" should share their thoughts regarding prices and future values and market trends. This is not like anybody has insight information or something. It is collaboration of ideas for the most important part of the whole investment, that is the shares price!

NXT in their thread talk about NXT price trends and many other altcoins. Why should I be obliged to go look at their thread and read the thoughts of people I "don't know" instead of listen to the thoughts of people I "know" from this community?

In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!



Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 09:53:04 am
and to add something else... I keep thinking how much wealthier I would have been if I have invested the same amount I invested in PTS/AGS back then to NXT and have kept it till today and this makes me furious with my self!!! I could  easily take a break from my work for 1 year and to be honest the way the market see BTS so far I don't think this will happen any time soon... :( :( :(. A market report update is essential!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: gamey on May 30, 2014, 10:00:31 am
I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that.

NXT in their thread talk about NXT price trends and many other altcoins. Why should I be obliged to go look at their thread and read the thoughts of people I "don't know" instead of listen to the thoughts of people I "know" from this community?

In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!

Do you know where the thread that does the equivalence math between the various shares is ?  I've always been meaning to do the math out on paper but never got around to it. I'd like to see it worked out.

People's opinions on coins are pretty much going to follow their holdings and they're going to say what they wish others to believe.  I am not sure there is much value in that.  And if you stick with the guys on here, they'll just tell you PTS is great value and to buy it up.  What other answer is there ?

However I do agree with you about discussion! This is why we need an off-topic forum that is not buried at the bottom in a discouraging manner.  You could post your market talk thread and ask for opinions.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on May 30, 2014, 10:06:13 am
I disagree! Even if PTS is not an altcoin it is a share with tradable value. It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that. I have also missed the argument that after the snapshot everyone would sell their PTS and instead I kept on buying... Most will say " that's your problem you didn't make proper research" but the NXT community "protects" their investors with this market update thread. They don't have to go around the whole forum to look around for information and make their judgments. If there was a thread back then and most of the people were saying the same things I wouldn't have made these mistakes.
For PTS we sure should set this up .. you can go for it! For BTS it doesn't make sense as BTS do not have value yet.
Sorry for your loss.. However, the "sell after snapshot" was not an agreement. It was a consequence of the snapshot and will happen over and over again after each snapshot! Afair BM announced this also on LTB (http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/caution-watch-for-falling-pts)

Quote
BM, Stan and others, including you Xeroc, to me are very respectable voices and I take now very seriously every single small comment you guys make!
Thanks for your trust, however I am just a small part of this community. No a developer. I am helping out in my spare time when I can. Nothing too special.

Quote
I think that we should start the market update thread as soon as possible in order to protect long term investors like me for future losses like that. The "company" or the "investors" or the "community" should share their thoughts regarding prices and future values and market trends. This is not like anybody has insight information or something. It is collaboration of ideas for the most important part of the whole investment, that is the shares price!
+5%

Quote
NXT in their thread talk about NXT price trends and many other altcoins. Why should I be obliged to go look at their thread and read the thoughts of people I "don't know" instead of listen to the thoughts of people I "know" from this community?

In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!
I like the idea of having trusted friends of the community chat about market prices ..

Quote
I could  easily take a break from my work for 1 year and to be honest the way the market see BTS so far I don't think this will happen any time soon... :( :( :(. A market report update is essential!
There's a hole thread dedicated to that "issue"
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4779.0;all
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on May 30, 2014, 10:10:03 am
Do you know where the thread that does the equivalence math between the various shares is ?  I've always been meaning to do the math out on paper but never got around to it. I'd like to see it worked out.
Checkout:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2081.msg25208#msg25208
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3188.0
Discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1631.0

Quote
People's opinions on coins are pretty much going to follow their holdings and they're going to say what they wish others to believe.  I am not sure there is much value in that.  And if you stick with the guys on here, they'll just tell you PTS is great value and to buy it up.  What other answer is there ?
That's probably true for Bitcointalk. I am pretty sure people in here are more serious! (That might change once bitshares products is successful)

Quote
However I do agree with you about discussion! This is why we need an off-topic forum that is not buried at the bottom in a discouraging manner.  You could post your market talk thread and ask for opinions.
There's an Economics subforum:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=6.0
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 10:22:40 am
Quote
For PTS we sure should set this up .. you can go for it! For BTS it doesn't make sense as BTS do not have value yet.
Sorry for your loss.. However, the "sell after snapshot" was not an agreement. It was a consequence of the snapshot and will happen over and over again after each snapshot! Afair BM announced this also on LTB (http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/caution-watch-for-falling-pts)

If there was a specific thread back then for the price speculation and this article was posted many people would have been protected. I do not follow LTB...I only follow this forum. There is no much time to follow everything unfortunately...

Quote
For PTS we sure should set this up .. you can go for it!
. After my amazing performance in PTS trading I think I am the worst person to start this thread  ;)... Someone else more experienced should start it and pin the thread so it always comes on top!

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on May 30, 2014, 10:34:12 am
If there was a specific thread back then for the price speculation and this article was posted many people would have been protected. I do not follow LTB...I only follow this forum. There is no much time to follow everything unfortunately...
However, you can see it as follows: You didnt really loose money but got shares in the snapshot. The only thing "lost" is the trading opportunity making some EXTRA bucks against those uninformed.


Quote
After my amazing performance in PTS trading I think I am the worst person to start this thread  ;)... Someone else more experienced should start it and pin the thread so it always comes on top!
Why not change the topic-title and let Amazon move+sticky this thread.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: CLains on May 30, 2014, 11:29:36 am
I am going apeshit on this trading business. 7 days trends are my friend. I cut mercilessly at any sign of weakness. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2YrTxfbToM)

Holding NXT and BC at this second. Reviewing commitments and opportunities 2 times daily.

I just want to be free.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mint chocolate chip on May 30, 2014, 06:12:44 pm
I like this idea.

Is this the link to the NXT market report? https://nxtforum.org/trading-exchanges/nxt-market-report/180/
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 06:27:29 pm
yes.

although some times irrelevant posts are made on the thread, it is nice to see some graphs and trends when other people are noticing...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on May 30, 2014, 06:51:06 pm
so...let's see...What are your thoughts:

PTS: Probably the best share to hold and undervalued right now. The price will shout up once some products are released...No doubt about that...

NXT: What is the max Market cap you think it will reach this year? Is this the NXT big thing out there? Is it even possible to become bigger than BTC? Is it even possible that it will win the mining pools and all these investments already taking place in BTC?

BTC: How long do you thing the pump from the DISH accepting bitcoin news will last? Where do you see BTC over the summer?

PPC / XPM / FTC: Are they slowly dying and no expected further development over there?

Cure coin: For the first time I see a meaning in mining. Could this go high with some publicity? Although XPM was also some kind of mining with scientific purpose I see it dying and this makes me sad (bagholder)...

BC: I don't see any benefit compared to NXT or PPC other than good marketing efforts but I might be completely wrong here

LTC: Other than the advantage of 1st scrypt coin, I see absolutely no real value there and sooner or later it will die??

Dark coin: If this is so good, BTC could change the protocol in the future so I don't see any value there either. I think it will soon be dumped.

Mastercoin / Counterparty: Crap...

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Mrrr on May 30, 2014, 08:54:48 pm
NEM is looking stronger every day. Trading on the Nxt asset exchange now and the dev team is competent.

Mastercoin is crap, don't buy at whatever price.

XCP looks better. Sports betting to be implemented any day now. Since the announcement alone already made prices spike I suppose the world cup will do the rest.

My holdings follow my opinions, not the other way around :)


Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on May 30, 2014, 09:08:38 pm
I speculated for long enough. Bigger players than you or me are manipulating it. The wisest thing I did was to sell all my crap coins and bet on Bitshares.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: onceuponatime on May 30, 2014, 10:46:38 pm
I speculated for long enough. Bigger players than you or me are manipulating it. The wisest thing I did was to sell all my crap coins and bet on Bitshares.

+5%

Very freeing, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on May 30, 2014, 11:09:54 pm
Oh yes, it was freeing. As much as I hoped for and bet on the success of other coins, there was always a feeling in the pit of my stomach that it wasn't quite right. I had lingering doubts about viability and long term success, probably for good reasons. And when I found Bitshares, that nagging feeling disappeared. For tangible and intangible reasons, this is better than any stock or cryptocoin investment I've ever made. For the first time, I didn't just hope this is the real thing, I actually felt it. And I still feel it.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Mrrr on May 31, 2014, 01:33:20 am
Heh, you're still speculating though. Until BM emerges from his cave wielding the Holy Grail you have absolutely nothing to feel certain about. Fortunately I believe he will find it, as do most people in this forum. I feel it too :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Stan on May 31, 2014, 02:54:36 am

It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that.
...
In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!

That brings back great memories from January 1, the first day of AGS donations:

Angleshares value in PTS: 2.133 AGS/PTS = 9.50 USD. Total donations today: 2,343.996 PTS = 47,770.64 USD.
Angleshares value in BTC: 80.825 AGS/BTC = 9.28 USD. Total donations today: 61.862 BTC = 46,693.44 USD.

That's a total funding of 94,464.08 USD on day one! Good job!

Folks who moved from PTS/BTC to AGS today more than doubled their stake in BitShares and subsequent DACs. 
I wonder how long that deal will hold up...

"...And we're goin' to Surf City, 'cause it's two to one"


Now we are seeing much bigger ratios than the Beach Boys once sang about.

Staggering ratios!

And there is less risk now than there was then! 
Think of how many problems have been solved.
Think of how much stronger our underlying tech base is today.
How much more flexible and robust and full-featured it has become.
All the DACs in obvious parallel development by many talented, independent, self-motivated developers.
And BitShares XT operating with scores of examples posted daily.
If people were that excited on January 2nd, how can it be anything but blowing their minds now?

Humans are funny creatures.
 
A ten week delay to make a flurry of critical innovations
completely changes their calibration of what constitutes outstanding performance.
despite daily improvements
and triumphant breakthroughs
and videos and interviews and direct-access mumbles.

The pessimists are letting 5 to 1 and even greater opportunities slip away to the optimists.

But you, the strong, the patient, the informed and therefore the optimistic
will prevail and prosper.

You deserve it.

 :)

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mint chocolate chip on June 13, 2014, 01:52:24 pm
From coinmarketcap:

10    NeutrinoCoin   $ 12,174,444   $ 0.057901   210,264,208 NTR   $ 14,797   +1132.15 %


Can someone alert me the next time they see something out of the blue potentially about to explode like this? thanks.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 13, 2014, 03:59:07 pm
What is so different about this one and exploded like that? Are the devs. only pumping the coin maybe?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Empirical1 on June 13, 2014, 04:08:35 pm
From coinmarketcap:

10    NeutrinoCoin   $ 12,174,444   $ 0.057901   210,264,208 NTR   $ 14,797   +1132.15 %


Can someone alert me the next time they see something out of the blue potentially about to explode like this? thanks.

Interesting. The volume is really low so there must be very few coins on the market. (They're hoarding the majority)

I like their website though. Very clear and concise. 1 minute of your time and you understand and are clear on what they're offering and the advantages thereof.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: gamey on June 13, 2014, 06:05:59 pm

I saw this too and was left scratching my head.

I think that the privacy thing is taking off.  People saw Darkcoin skyrocket and so this innovation is very appealing.  I didn't quite get a chance to read everything on how neutroncoin is different in their approach to anonymity, but I have to agree their website did a good job explaining it.

Personally I think BTC has enough privacy and fail to see privacy alone as enough innovation.  It is becoming something of a standard of 2nd generation altcoins.  Darkcoin did a great job marketing. 

Just like Auracoin (sp?) spawned a ton of other geographical airdrops.  None were as successful as Auracoin and now none of that family of coins are particularly special.  I have a feeling something similar will happen to darkcoin etc.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on June 13, 2014, 10:26:46 pm

I saw this too and was left scratching my head.

I think that the privacy thing is taking off.  People saw Darkcoin skyrocket and so this innovation is very appealing.  I didn't quite get a chance to read everything on how neutroncoin is different in their approach to anonymity, but I have to agree their website did a good job explaining it.

Personally I think BTC has enough privacy and fail to see privacy alone as enough innovation.  It is becoming something of a standard of 2nd generation altcoins.  Darkcoin did a great job marketing. 

Just like Auracoin (sp?) spawned a ton of other geographical airdrops.  None were as successful as Auracoin and now none of that family of coins are particularly special.  I have a feeling something similar will happen to darkcoin etc.

The pace of this evolution is pretty incredible. It's like watching a time lapse video of a single-celled organism evolving into a few dozen mutant variations. There are a lot of good ideas in the alt coin world and I agree we're going to keep seeing those successful ideas built upon and improved. Just a few months ago, proof of stake was considered the work of the devil himself, and now look at all the interest in that. Privacy is taking off, too. ANd we haven't seen anything yet. Hopefully, the market will come to Bitshares just as Bitshares arrives to lead the market.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: NewMine on June 14, 2014, 04:09:14 pm

It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that.
...
In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!

That brings back great memories from January 1, the first day of AGS donations:

Angleshares value in PTS: 2.133 AGS/PTS = 9.50 USD. Total donations today: 2,343.996 PTS = 47,770.64 USD.
Angleshares value in BTC: 80.825 AGS/BTC = 9.28 USD. Total donations today: 61.862 BTC = 46,693.44 USD.

That's a total funding of 94,464.08 USD on day one! Good job!

Folks who moved from PTS/BTC to AGS today more than doubled their stake in BitShares and subsequent DACs. 
I wonder how long that deal will hold up...

"...And we're goin' to Surf City, 'cause it's two to one"


Now we are seeing much bigger ratios than the Beach Boys once sang about.

Staggering ratios!

And there is less risk now than there was then! 
Think of how many problems have been solved.
Think of how much stronger our underlying tech base is today.
How much more flexible and robust and full-featured it has become.
All the DACs in obvious parallel development by many talented, independent, self-motivated developers.
And BitShares XT operating with scores of examples posted daily.
If people were that excited on January 2nd, how can it be anything but blowing their minds now?

Humans are funny creatures.
 
A ten week delay to make a flurry of critical innovations
completely changes their calibration of what constitutes outstanding performance.
despite daily improvements
and triumphant breakthroughs
and videos and interviews and direct-access mumbles.

The pessimists are letting 5 to 1 and even greater opportunities slip away to the optimists.

But you, the strong, the patient, the informed and therefore the optimistic
will prevail and prosper.

You deserve it.

 :)

Pretty sure "Surf City" is Jan and Dean, not The Beach Boys.  ;)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Stan on June 14, 2014, 04:22:19 pm

It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that.
...
In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!

That brings back great memories from January 1, the first day of AGS donations:

Angleshares value in PTS: 2.133 AGS/PTS = 9.50 USD. Total donations today: 2,343.996 PTS = 47,770.64 USD.
Angleshares value in BTC: 80.825 AGS/BTC = 9.28 USD. Total donations today: 61.862 BTC = 46,693.44 USD.

That's a total funding of 94,464.08 USD on day one! Good job!

Folks who moved from PTS/BTC to AGS today more than doubled their stake in BitShares and subsequent DACs. 
I wonder how long that deal will hold up...

"...And we're goin' to Surf City, 'cause it's two to one"


Now we are seeing much bigger ratios than the Beach Boys once sang about.

Staggering ratios!

And there is less risk now than there was then! 
Think of how many problems have been solved.
Think of how much stronger our underlying tech base is today.
How much more flexible and robust and full-featured it has become.
All the DACs in obvious parallel development by many talented, independent, self-motivated developers.
And BitShares XT operating with scores of examples posted daily.
If people were that excited on January 2nd, how can it be anything but blowing their minds now?

Humans are funny creatures.
 
A ten week delay to make a flurry of critical innovations
completely changes their calibration of what constitutes outstanding performance.
despite daily improvements
and triumphant breakthroughs
and videos and interviews and direct-access mumbles.

The pessimists are letting 5 to 1 and even greater opportunities slip away to the optimists.

But you, the strong, the patient, the informed and therefore the optimistic
will prevail and prosper.

You deserve it.

 :)

Pretty sure "Surf City" is Jan and Dean, not The Beach Boys.  ;)

I always get those two mixed up because they cross-pollinated so well:

The first draft of the song, with the working title "Goody Connie Won't You Come Back Home", was written by Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys. He gave it to Jan and Dean who finished writing and recording it with Wilson in the early 1960s.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Stan on June 15, 2014, 12:46:50 am

It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that.
...
In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!

That brings back great memories from January 1, the first day of AGS donations:

Angleshares value in PTS: 2.133 AGS/PTS = 9.50 USD. Total donations today: 2,343.996 PTS = 47,770.64 USD.
Angleshares value in BTC: 80.825 AGS/BTC = 9.28 USD. Total donations today: 61.862 BTC = 46,693.44 USD.

That's a total funding of 94,464.08 USD on day one! Good job!

Folks who moved from PTS/BTC to AGS today more than doubled their stake in BitShares and subsequent DACs. 
I wonder how long that deal will hold up...

"...And we're goin' to Surf City, 'cause it's two to one"


Now we are seeing much bigger ratios than the Beach Boys once sang about.

Staggering ratios!

And there is less risk now than there was then! 
Think of how many problems have been solved.
Think of how much stronger our underlying tech base is today.
How much more flexible and robust and full-featured it has become.
All the DACs in obvious parallel development by many talented, independent, self-motivated developers.
And BitShares XT operating with scores of examples posted daily.
If people were that excited on January 2nd, how can it be anything but blowing their minds now?

Humans are funny creatures.
 
A ten week delay to make a flurry of critical innovations
completely changes their calibration of what constitutes outstanding performance.
despite daily improvements
and triumphant breakthroughs
and videos and interviews and direct-access mumbles.

The pessimists are letting 5 to 1 and even greater opportunities slip away to the optimists.

But you, the strong, the patient, the informed and therefore the optimistic
will prevail and prosper.

You deserve it.

 :)
Plus 2 weeks now,we wait XTS FOT 1/4 OF A YEAR!Very Suck;;;; WTF exactly XTS  be liquid , you have been talking soon soon soon for a long time,we are lack of confidence right now.And due to the fork issue in the recent dry run test,i guess we have to wait until the end of the summer,damn.i will no longer support I3 anymore,not a liar company,but a ill management company.

The ten week reference was the time it took us to get back to where we thought we would be on March 15th - ready to start doing the testing you see us doing. 
In those 10 weeks we invented DPOS.

And what DPOS will do for this industry is far more than reliably eliminate wasteful mining.  It gives control back to the little guy - produces genuine decentralization - permits grass-roots counter attacks - and most importantly, raises up 101 elected champions for each DAC - champions that will have to promote that DAC and grow its value to stay elected.  Champions that will have the financial incentive to compete fiercely for a delegate slot and the financial resources to have genuine influence on how that DAC develops.

This is freaking huge.  And well worth the 10 week delay.   :)

That's why we hope people understand the difference between 10 weeks of priceless innovation and 10 weeks of aimless wandering.  Those who do will get the deserved rewards.  Those who don't will also get what they deserve.

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: toast on June 15, 2014, 01:54:50 am
FWIW the forking issues you said would delay us all summer just got fixed by dan and eric
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Stan on June 15, 2014, 02:15:06 am

It would be very nice if there was a sticky thread from the beginning talking about that value. I am a member here from the beginning and I completely missed the argument that 1 PTS = 1.3 BTS and 1 AGS = 3.33 BTS (I wasn't visiting every single day) and I took serious losses because of that.
...
In the end of the day this is also MARKETING!! Try to protect your investors with transparency and honest thoughts!

That brings back great memories from January 1, the first day of AGS donations:

Angleshares value in PTS: 2.133 AGS/PTS = 9.50 USD. Total donations today: 2,343.996 PTS = 47,770.64 USD.
Angleshares value in BTC: 80.825 AGS/BTC = 9.28 USD. Total donations today: 61.862 BTC = 46,693.44 USD.

That's a total funding of 94,464.08 USD on day one! Good job!

Folks who moved from PTS/BTC to AGS today more than doubled their stake in BitShares and subsequent DACs. 
I wonder how long that deal will hold up...

"...And we're goin' to Surf City, 'cause it's two to one"


Now we are seeing much bigger ratios than the Beach Boys once sang about.

Staggering ratios!

And there is less risk now than there was then! 
Think of how many problems have been solved.
Think of how much stronger our underlying tech base is today.
How much more flexible and robust and full-featured it has become.
All the DACs in obvious parallel development by many talented, independent, self-motivated developers.
And BitShares XT operating with scores of examples posted daily.
If people were that excited on January 2nd, how can it be anything but blowing their minds now?

Humans are funny creatures.
 
A ten week delay to make a flurry of critical innovations
completely changes their calibration of what constitutes outstanding performance.
despite daily improvements
and triumphant breakthroughs
and videos and interviews and direct-access mumbles.

The pessimists are letting 5 to 1 and even greater opportunities slip away to the optimists.

But you, the strong, the patient, the informed and therefore the optimistic
will prevail and prosper.

You deserve it.

 :)
Plus 2 weeks now,we wait XTS FOT 1/4 OF A YEAR!Very Suck;;;; WTF exactly XTS  be liquid , you have been talking soon soon soon for a long time,we are lack of confidence right now.And due to the fork issue in the recent dry run test,i guess we have to wait until the end of the summer,damn.i will no longer support I3 anymore,not a liar company,but a ill management company.

The ten week reference was the time it took us to get back to where we thought we would be on March 15th - ready to start doing the testing you see us doing. 
In those 10 weeks we invented DPOS.

And what DPOS will do for this industry is far more than reliably eliminate wasteful mining.  It gives control back to the little guy - produces genuine decentralization - permits grass-roots counter attacks - and most importantly, raises up 101 elected champions for each DAC - champions that will have to promote that DAC and grow its value to stay elected.  Champions that will have the financial incentive to compete fiercely for a delegate slot and the financial resources to have genuine influence on how that DAC develops.

This is freaking huge.  And well worth the 10 week delay.   :)

That's why we hope people understand the difference between 10 weeks of priceless innovation and 10 weeks of aimless wandering.  Those who do will get the deserved rewards.  Those who don't will also get what they deserve.
So you mean we have to wait until the end of the summer,right?If we don't have that patience we are a bad investor,right?
Come on ,business is business,especially the crypto world,time is money.
We don't need your gaudy words to inspire our confidence,we need product,a real release product,so give us a time frame, even a vague one.

If you don't understand what we are doing, don't know what it takes, and are unable to correctly evaluate our status, you should not be investing. 
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on June 15, 2014, 02:22:06 am

The ten week reference was the time it took us to get back to where we thought we would be on March 15th - ready to start doing the testing you see us doing. 

In those 10 weeks we invented DPOS.


And what DPOS will do for this industry is far more than reliably eliminate wasteful mining.  It gives control back to the little guy - produces genuine decentralization - permits grass-roots counter attacks - and most importantly, raises up 101 elected champions for each DAC - champions that will have to promote that DAC and grow its value to stay elected.  Champions that will have the financial incentive to compete fiercely for a delegate slot and the financial resources to have genuine influence on how that DAC develops.

This is freaking huge.  And well worth the 10 week delay.   :)

[/size]That's why we hope people understand the difference between 10 weeks of priceless innovation and 10 weeks of aimless wandering.  Those who do will get the deserved rewards.  Those who don't will also get what they deserve.


I have about 100 stupid ideas daily… here is the latest… rename this thread to “Marketing report” moved it to ‘Marketing sub forum’. Start a new one somewhere where one can discuss what is the fair market value today of those non-existing, but constantly improving products; as well as - are the proud owners of said product/asset  stupid or wise to be nervous at the current market price….

[Edit for edit]
Other appropriate posts in the new "Market Report” thread include but are not limited to:
- “What should one do with an investment that is untradeable/ non-transferable but Stan says I shouldn’t have invested in the first place, cause I am stupid or cannot/too lazy to read 15K lines of code”



Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on June 15, 2014, 04:51:32 am

The ten week reference was the time it took us to get back to where we thought we would be on March 15th - ready to start doing the testing you see us doing. 
In those 10 weeks we invented DPOS.

And what DPOS will do for this industry is far more than reliably eliminate wasteful mining.  It gives control back to the little guy - produces genuine decentralization - permits grass-roots counter attacks - and most importantly, raises up 101 elected champions for each DAC - champions that will have to promote that DAC and grow its value to stay elected.  Champions that will have the financial incentive to compete fiercely for a delegate slot and the financial resources to have genuine influence on how that DAC develops.

This is freaking huge.  And well worth the 10 week delay.   :)

That's why we hope people understand the difference between 10 weeks of priceless innovation and 10 weeks of aimless wandering.  Those who do will get the deserved rewards.  Those who don't will also get what they deserve.
So you mean we have to wait until the end of the summer,right?If we don't have that patience we are a bad investor,right?
Come on ,business is business,especially the crypto world,time is money.
We don't need your gaudy words to inspire our confidence,we need product,a real release product,so give us a time frame, even a vague one.
[/quote]

If you don't understand what we are doing, don't know what it takes, and are unable to correctly evaluate our status, you should not be investing.
[/quote]

Clap, clap, clap! I'm off to make another AGS donation.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Harvey on June 15, 2014, 04:56:22 am
FWIW the forking issues you said would delay us all summer just got fixed by dan and eric

Absolutely fantastic!  +5%
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on June 15, 2014, 08:44:17 am



If you don't understand what we are doing, don't know what it takes, and are unable to correctly evaluate our status, you should not be investing.

+5%
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: liondani on June 15, 2014, 07:31:53 pm
FWIW the forking issues you said would delay us all summer just got fixed by dan and eric

Absolutely fantastic!  +5%

Is it a fact that they fixed it?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: toast on June 15, 2014, 07:42:07 pm
"It" being one such bug, no guarantees we fixed all possible bugs that could cause forks
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: ripplexiaoshan on June 15, 2014, 09:40:43 pm
NXT is really progressing much faster than BTS.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 17, 2014, 01:13:59 pm

A couple of months it was way too buggy and non friendly for non tech guys and their progress now is outstanding...

"The question is did we missed that boat and initial investors will soon start to dump at some point"? Or do you guys believe that it will overtake litecoin and could reach the 1/2 bil market cap?

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: gamey on June 17, 2014, 05:44:49 pm

A couple of months it was way too buggy and non friendly for non tech guys and their progress now is outstanding...

"The question is did we missed that boat and initial investors will soon start to dump at some point"? Or do you guys believe that it will overtake litecoin and could reach the 1/2 bil market cap?

NXT is a currency first of all, with added on features.  Their AE is pretty cool.  It is not something that can't be easily overtaken.   NXT also isn't as successful as people think it is.  Look at Cryptsy volumes.

CRYPT/BTC    CryptCoin    1012 BTC   
LTC/BTC    LiteCoin    181 BTC   
DRK/BTC    DarkCoin    176 BTC   
DOGE/BTC    Dogecoin    151 BTC
POT/BTC    PotCoin    67.5 BTC   
NXT/BTC    Nxt    47.0 BTC   

So Dogecoin has 3x the volume (unspecified timeframe) and even PotCoin beats NXT. 
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: toast on June 17, 2014, 07:12:57 pm

A couple of months it was way too buggy and non friendly for non tech guys and their progress now is outstanding...

"The question is did we missed that boat and initial investors will soon start to dump at some point"? Or do you guys believe that it will overtake litecoin and could reach the 1/2 bil market cap?

NXT is a currency first of all, with added on features.  Their AE is pretty cool.  It is not something that can't be easily overtaken.   NXT also isn't as successful as people think it is.  Look at Cryptsy volumes.

CRYPT/BTC    CryptCoin    1012 BTC   
LTC/BTC    LiteCoin    181 BTC   
DRK/BTC    DarkCoin    176 BTC   
DOGE/BTC    Dogecoin    151 BTC
POT/BTC    PotCoin    67.5 BTC   
NXT/BTC    Nxt    47.0 BTC   

So Dogecoin has 3x the volume (unspecified timeframe) and even PotCoin beats NXT.

I wish coinmarketcap would adjust NXT's supply to exclude the unclaimed genesis addresses. They did adjust Ripple's supply, after all. Anyone want to send them that suggestion? Use words like "misleading" and "would be more accurate"
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: vikram on June 17, 2014, 07:40:53 pm

A couple of months it was way too buggy and non friendly for non tech guys and their progress now is outstanding...

"The question is did we missed that boat and initial investors will soon start to dump at some point"? Or do you guys believe that it will overtake litecoin and could reach the 1/2 bil market cap?

NXT is a currency first of all, with added on features.  Their AE is pretty cool.  It is not something that can't be easily overtaken.   NXT also isn't as successful as people think it is.  Look at Cryptsy volumes.

CRYPT/BTC    CryptCoin    1012 BTC   
LTC/BTC    LiteCoin    181 BTC   
DRK/BTC    DarkCoin    176 BTC   
DOGE/BTC    Dogecoin    151 BTC
POT/BTC    PotCoin    67.5 BTC   
NXT/BTC    Nxt    47.0 BTC   

So Dogecoin has 3x the volume (unspecified timeframe) and even PotCoin beats NXT.

I wish coinmarketcap would adjust NXT's supply to exclude the unclaimed genesis addresses. They did adjust Ripple's supply, after all. Anyone want to send them that suggestion? Use words like "misleading" and "would be more accurate"

These are kinds of messes we get without inactivity fees and BIPS.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 17, 2014, 09:04:02 pm
I am quite confused with NXT. 95% of my time I follow Bitshares so it would be nice if others have more info around what's happening..

As far as I know:

NXT might soon get fiat exchange. +

There are some scandals currently I think with some assets on the AE. -

Not sure what happened with Gocoin deal

It is misleading as Toast pointed out. I wonder what the market cap will be if it gets adjusted as ripple did.

They have good marketing ideas and want to expand. They are planning to send emails to many Universities..++

Does NEM has potential? It starts to appear having high volume on their AE. Can someone explain simply how to claim the NEM share? If I buy the token on the exchange is there a deadline I should send something to someone?

Another question... What prevent any bank to simply do a new Ripple as payment processor? If the answer is nothing then XRPs are useless?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: gamey on June 22, 2014, 07:07:23 am
Does NEM has potential? It starts to appear having high volume on their AE. Can someone explain simply how to claim the NEM share? If I buy the token on the exchange is there a deadline I should send something to someone?


You buy the token on the exchange.  When they release the coin you will email patmast3r or someone else about the token and send it to them.  They will then send you the amount of your stake.  So .1 stake  = 100k coins.  IMO it is as good of a deal as any.  There are 100s of shitcoins, but not many coins with 1k+ BTT veteran accounts.  It is also being written from scratch.  Which means slower release, but a bigger chance of going places.  It already has tons of NXT supporting sock puppets trying to take it down, but so far there is only 1 scandal and that is the main guy was caught with a sock puppet taking an extra stake.  He stepped down and they're claiming more people have stepped up and are stronger than ever.  If you are wanting to diversify crypto-equity, this is as good of a place to start as any.  I personally despise NXT and never have a positive experience ever with anyone from their community.  (Witness bluemeanie1's behavior on this forum an an immediate example.)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 22, 2014, 07:39:06 pm
thank you for the advice... For me everything I have is on AGS now...If that fails I simply wasted 1-1.5 years of my life in crypto for nothing...But I doubt this will be the case. ;)

However a small diversification is always good. I am trading very small amounts in different shitcoins just in case... but this never works...Cryptcoin is one of them...The moment I bought some, the next day it crashed...Unbelievable.. :(

I have a small stake in NXT and I am thinking to switch all of it to NEM or keep 1/2 NEM , 1/2 NXT maybe...

NXT is nice and made some serious progress over the last months...But some people there are messing up seriously with the rest of the community.

I don't think that Blueminie1 had a bad behavior here. On the contrast I think that we were more hostile against him than he was. I might be mistaken though as I didn't pay much attention to the whole conversation but that's the idea it left me anyway...

And having said that t about blueminie1,  I think he is involved in a big scandal in NXT AE and stole a lot of funds of investors there...So in the end if we didn't treat him well here, good for us!!Although I might be mistaken again as I didn't pay much attention to this thread as well...

Despite many times the frustration of many members here about the delays of I3 I really think that we are one of the best communities out there. And if we stop bitching about delays, stop with the unnecessary negativity and we all collaborate as we can, I really think we can overtake all the other coins...

There are a lot of brilliant minds in here that other communities don't have...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cass on June 22, 2014, 10:17:51 pm
Despite many times the frustration of many members here about the delays of I3 I really think that we are one of the best communities out there. And if we stop bitching about delays, stop with the unnecessary negativity and we all collaborate as we can, I really think we can overtake all the other coins...


indeed  :P

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 23, 2014, 07:50:20 pm
Since I have been burned quite a few times with bad trading and I value very much your opinions can you please share some thoughts...

Do you guys think this is a good time to buy 1-2 bitcoins?
Do you think we will have any increase to $800 shortly?
I want to do some short term trading in bitcoin. All funds are in AGS by now so I need some liquidity diversification...
How do you think the auction of the FBI coins will affect the price?
When is this auction taking place anyway? I thought that all 30,000 BTCs would be auctioned on the 25th June but I might misunderstood...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: liondani on June 23, 2014, 11:42:31 pm
Since I have been burned quite a few times with bad trading and I value very much your opinions can you please share some thoughts...

Do you guys think this is a good time to buy 1-2 bitcoins?
Do you think we will have any increase to $800 shortly?
I want to do some short term trading in bitcoin. All funds are in AGS by now so I need some liquidity diversification...
How do you think the auction of the FBI coins will affect the price?
When is this auction taking place anyway? I thought that all 30,000 BTCs would be auctioned on the 25th June but I might misunderstood...

I would buy PTS and hold to see the transition to TITAN...
In 24 Days after Ags donation's finishes price will go up in no time!

Advantages:
1.TITAN expected vs DPOS and you will get 1:1 for every PTS very soon...
2.AGS donation's going to stop soon...So only PTS available if you want a bigger % on future DACs...
3.After Release of our first ever product.... bitsharesX... our community will steal attention (we are on the final countdown don't forget it)
4.I predict that after the end of AGS very soon after, they will introduce us the first DAC  ;)
5.What else do you want to hear? If it isn't enough allready ... buy your 2 bitcoins  :P
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on June 24, 2014, 07:11:36 am
4.I predict that after the end of AGS very soon after, they will introduce us the first DAC  ;)
BitShares Lotto, BitShares DNS, BitShares ME, BitShares Music
they all are in the pipeline ..
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 24, 2014, 07:29:47 am
Guys don't shoot... I was just thinking a bit of diversification... I don't have a single bitcoin! And the only reason I want to buy 1 bitcoin is just in case people sell cheap BTS X and I can buy some more BTS X then...

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: gamey on June 24, 2014, 07:35:31 am
I'm not sure what to think about Bitcoin as an investment at this point.  One thing is for certain to go from fiat -> crypto you almost always have to buy BTC first. So having some BTC around to buy stuff is always useful.  I doubt BTC is going up or down much in the very immediate future but will almost assuredly go up shy of any unforseen event. 

I believe the US and Western countries have embraced it enough that most of the FUD is gone.

edit - actually.. I'm kinda saying 2 things.  I think the 51% stuff scares new people off a lot, but on the other hand a lot of other unknowns have been removed.. It seems like the 51% scare won't make it lose value, but could scare larger investors and slow adoption.

 It is hard to suggest BTC to a crypto geek when there seems to likely be lots of other better options for a better return.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on June 24, 2014, 07:37:46 am
as long as it doesn't fall below $400 by the time BTS X is out I am fine..I don't want to buy a bitcoin and then the value drops and I am not able to buy more cheap BTS X on launch. :).

 
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on June 24, 2014, 09:40:51 pm

We should have a pretty good idea by the end of the week if NXT goes up, trying to catch litecoin (the chances are getting slimmer by the day, btw) or this run is done and it retracts.

It is of no great importance, in the long run for DAC shareholders, but it would be nice if the target for Bitshares ME is the second crypto on the planet …It will mean BTS X have just one target to overtake to become the crypto king.

Market Update : June 24, 2014, 09:38:23 PM
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on July 03, 2014, 02:28:16 pm
Any thoughts on NTX? I just saw this on coinmarket cap and it says something about Recast...No idea what these mean...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 13, 2014, 09:53:54 pm

Here are my (arguably useless thoughts).

1.NXT is the next best thing after Bitshares (BTSX in particular). NXT has been in down-ward spiral for well over a month. Any actual market functionality by BTSX will send NXT if not at, pretty close to 0.000025... MHO

2.If you gonna invest real $, there is a good chance BTC will go down below $500/BTC. Do you want to wait for that opportunity to buy BTSX? I honestly do not know....
I personally liquidated all my crypto hedges (NXT, NEM, Qora... you name it) to go all in BTSX, and can afford to patiently wait BTC to go down, so I can go USD ->BTC -> BTSX

3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

4. Any Euth investors around? If yes, kiss them good bye. If you get almost all of your money back after 12-15mo you should consider yourself extremely lucky and not try this again!



08/13/2014 5:00 pm CST

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on August 14, 2014, 06:23:19 am
4. Any Euth investors around? If yes, kiss them good bye. If you get almost all of your money back after 12-15mo you should consider yourself extremely lucky and not try this again!
My guess is he is talking about "eth"/"ether"/ethereum" investors ..

besides that .. I can pretty much understand you! +5%
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: bitcoinerS on August 14, 2014, 07:07:52 am

I wish coinmarketcap would adjust NXT's supply to exclude the unclaimed genesis addresses.

Do we have such data for BTSX?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: D4vegee on August 14, 2014, 10:25:17 am

Here are my (arguably useless thoughts).

1.NXT is the next best thing after Bitshares (BTSX in particular). NXT has been in down-ward spiral for well over a month. Any actual market functionality by BTSX will send NXT if not at, pretty close to 0.000025... MHO

2.If you gonna invest real $, there is a good chance BTC will go down below $500/BTC. Do you want to wait for that opportunity to buy BTSX? I honestly do not know....
I personally liquidated all my crypto hedges (NXT, NEM, Qora... you name it) to go all in BTSX, and can afford to patiently wait BTC to go down, so I can go USD ->BTC -> BTSX

3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

4. Any Euth investors around? If yes, kiss them good bye. If you get almost all of your money back after 12-15mo you should consider yourself extremely lucky and not try this again!



08/13/2014 5:00 pm CST

Good post. However I don't think Maidsafe should be ignored..
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on August 14, 2014, 10:43:40 am
Quote
Here are my (arguably useless thoughts).

1.NXT is the next best thing after Bitshares (BTSX in particular). NXT has been in down-ward spiral for well over a month. Any actual market functionality by BTSX will send NXT if not at, pretty close to 0.000025... MHO

2.If you gonna invest real $, there is a good chance BTC will go down below $500/BTC. Do you want to wait for that opportunity to buy BTSX? I honestly do not know....
I personally liquidated all my crypto hedges (NXT, NEM, Qora... you name it) to go all in BTSX, and can afford to patiently wait BTC to go down, so I can go USD ->BTC -> BTSX

3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

4. Any Euth investors around? If yes, kiss them good bye. If you get almost all of your money back after 12-15mo you should consider yourself extremely lucky and not try this again!

 +5% +5% +5%

Although I wouldn't want NXT to go get destroyed. I have invested some of my wife's money when it was pumping to +0.0001 and for the last month I can't stand her...hehehehe...So I still hope that NXT has some potential and get the 2nd place, once BTSX gets the first place of course...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: bytemaster on August 14, 2014, 06:37:02 pm

I wish coinmarketcap would adjust NXT's supply to exclude the unclaimed genesis addresses.

Do we have such data for BTSX?

We could get such data for BTSX... but just because it is unclaimed doesn't mean it couldn't be claimed. 
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: toast on August 14, 2014, 06:38:00 pm

I wish coinmarketcap would adjust NXT's supply to exclude the unclaimed genesis addresses.

Do we have such data for BTSX?

actually I asked and they said that they already reclaimed their unclaimed stake. For them this is reasonable because they had less than 100 donors.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 14, 2014, 06:55:24 pm
4. Any Euth investors around? If yes, kiss them good bye. If you get almost all of your money back after 12-15mo you should consider yourself extremely lucky and not try this again!
My guess is he is talking about "eth"/"ether"/ethereum" investors ..

besides that .. I can pretty much understand you! +5%

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for my spelling in this case and in general

.......................


Good post. However I don't think Maidsafe should be ignored..

Actually I have way too many posts regarding Maidsafe as it is.
 In short I think they have and continue to make terrible business decisions.
 As for the general idea - I think it is a dream that we all share...

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Riverhead on August 14, 2014, 07:50:24 pm
3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

I went with a more balanced BTSX/PTS approach.  Although there is no reason you can't shift back and forth between them depending on the situation. For example we know there is a double snapshot coming Aug 21st. One has to think how likely is it that BTSX is going to move a lot between now and the 22nd. It could make sense to shift your balance from BTSX to PTS, let the snapshot happen, then back to BTSX where it's warm and safe.

I'm sure this strategy isn't even remotely novel to anyone here :) .

Signed,
Cpt. Obvious
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: biophil on August 14, 2014, 08:50:07 pm
3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

I went with a more balanced BTSX/PTS approach.  Although there is no reason you can't shift back and forth between them depending on the situation. For example we know there is a double snapshot coming Aug 21st. One has to think how likely is it that BTSX is going to move a lot between now and the 22nd. It could make sense to shift your balance from BTSX to PTS, let the snapshot happen, then back to BTSX where it's warm and safe.

I'm sure this strategy isn't even remotely novel to anyone here :) .

Signed,
Cpt. Obvious

As long as you don't think there will be a grand PTS price crash post-snapshot... FWIW, the snapshot announcement had a small enough impact on the PTS price that there may not be much to worry about, but I'm keeping my BTSX right where they are. :)

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 14, 2014, 09:05:01 pm
3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

I went with a more balanced BTSX/PTS approach.  Although there is no reason you can't shift back and forth between them depending on the situation. For example we know there is a double snapshot coming Aug 21st. One has to think how likely is it that BTSX is going to move a lot between now and the 22nd. It could make sense to shift your balance from BTSX to PTS, let the snapshot happen, then back to BTSX where it's warm and safe.

I'm sure this strategy isn't even remotely novel to anyone here :) .

Signed,
Cpt. Obvious

Actually I have pretty strong opinion on this matter but I will send it to you (and anybody asking specifically) by PM. I have my reasons for that...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 17, 2014, 07:57:43 pm
Nice looking order book! If you are bullish of course!
 (look at the ask side)
(http://i.imgur.com/vXh2yS4.png)



Typical order book.

(http://i.imgur.com/MeoWpGN.png)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: CLains on August 18, 2014, 02:08:00 pm
Indeed, I am amazed at how well BTSX is holding up this BTC storm!

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-pts/

Hopefully it means we have a lot of bulls and investors who are independent of BTC.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on August 18, 2014, 02:18:04 pm
Hopefully it means we have a lot of bulls and investors who are independent of BTC.
What's BTC?  :P
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on August 18, 2014, 02:36:26 pm
3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

I went with a more balanced BTSX/PTS approach.  Although there is no reason you can't shift back and forth between them depending on the situation. For example we know there is a double snapshot coming Aug 21st. One has to think how likely is it that BTSX is going to move a lot between now and the 22nd. It could make sense to shift your balance from BTSX to PTS, let the snapshot happen, then back to BTSX where it's warm and safe.

I'm sure this strategy isn't even remotely novel to anyone here :) .

Signed,
Cpt. Obvious

thank you!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 18, 2014, 02:37:17 pm
Hopefully it means we have a lot of bulls and investors who are independent of BTC.
What's BTC?  :P

You are too young to remember this coin. ...It is dead now, but was the biggest crypto at one point in time. You kids should study more history at school.   :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on August 18, 2014, 02:52:45 pm
... study more history at school.   :)
I have a dream .. that one day ... they teach blockchain DPOS in school :)

// edit: fixed typo :P
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: liondani on August 18, 2014, 02:56:34 pm
... study more history at school.   :)
I have a dream .. that one day ... they teach blockchain DPOS in school :)

// edit: fixed typo :P

worst case scenario for us is we have a teacher job in future  :P
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Akado on August 18, 2014, 06:35:20 pm
3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

I went with a more balanced BTSX/PTS approach.  Although there is no reason you can't shift back and forth between them depending on the situation. For example we know there is a double snapshot coming Aug 21st. One has to think how likely is it that BTSX is going to move a lot between now and the 22nd. It could make sense to shift your balance from BTSX to PTS, let the snapshot happen, then back to BTSX where it's warm and safe.

I'm sure this strategy isn't even remotely novel to anyone here :) .

Signed,
Cpt. Obvious

But isn't PTS supposed to crash (in theory) after a snapshot? I would say it's a risky move and would also like to know why you think that wont happen (if you could explain of course)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Riverhead on August 18, 2014, 06:38:29 pm
3.Putting all eggs in one basket is not recommended strategy, but if you consider crypto currency as just one egg in your basket, I find it not too risky too put  all my money on that one thing I see most viable.

I went with a more balanced BTSX/PTS approach.  Although there is no reason you can't shift back and forth between them depending on the situation. For example we know there is a double snapshot coming Aug 21st. One has to think how likely is it that BTSX is going to move a lot between now and the 22nd. It could make sense to shift your balance from BTSX to PTS, let the snapshot happen, then back to BTSX where it's warm and safe.

I'm sure this strategy isn't even remotely novel to anyone here :) .

Signed,
Cpt. Obvious

But isn't PTS supposed to crash (in theory) after a snapshot? I would say it's a risky move and would also like to know why you think that wont happen (if you could explain of course)


It probably will go down to where it is now I'm thinking. It'll probably spike a bit right before the snapshot but my thinking is that anyone that wants PTS already has them so there isn't much reason for a big spike. Also how well these two DACs are received will determine the value of PTS a lot.


Although I said that was my strategy I'm having second thoughts :).  PTS is stagnating before the snapshot more than I expected but BTSX has already had it's first value bump. I'm a bit reluctant to leave BTSX right now.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 18, 2014, 07:33:01 pm

It probably will go down to where it is now I'm thinking. It'll probably spike a bit right before the snapshot but my thinking is that anyone that wants PTS already has them so there isn't much reason for a big spike. Also how well these two DACs are received will determine the value of PTS a lot.


Although I said that was my strategy I'm having second thoughts :).  PTS is stagnating before the snapshot more than I expected but BTSX has already had it's first value bump. I'm a bit reluctant to leave BTSX right now.

Fascinating to watch, isn't it? I wouldn't have thought PTS would tank today. But BitShares X has moved so fast and we are promised this BitUSD soon, so I can sure see how people find that more enticing than DNS and Vote. I want them all. Personally, I'm hoping that Amazon or Paypal don't announce something big about Bitcoin in the next little while, because I've sold almost all my BTC to stock up on PTS and BTSX.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: chryspano on August 18, 2014, 07:55:22 pm
Maybe this time we will not see a huge rise and drop in PTS price, most people that already know about PTS and future dacs have LOTS of AGS already and there is no need to invest more in PTS at this poin. Last months you could almost get x5 AGS for every PTS you spent to the Angel address. Any increase to PTS price could be from new investors, but most people don't even know about BTSX, so there is small demand for PTS and the snapshot. Also I think that most people would sell(or already sold) before the snapshot if the price was right just because they have lots of AGS. But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 18, 2014, 10:06:41 pm
True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Empirical1 on August 18, 2014, 10:10:23 pm
True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?

Because their PTS would/should achieve the maximum selling price right before the dual snapshot.
 
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on August 18, 2014, 10:11:42 pm
True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?
1) Donate to AGS using PTS
2) wait for snapshot annoucment
3) sell pts when high
4) get your shares from AGS
5) buy low after snapshot

sounds reasonable to me
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 18, 2014, 10:26:55 pm
True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?
1) Donate to AGS using PTS
2) wait for snapshot annoucment
3) sell pts when high
4) get your shares from AGS
5) buy low after snapshot

sounds reasonable to me

You must teach me the trick to do both 1) and 3) and in that order ...  :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 18, 2014, 11:07:36 pm
True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?
1) Donate to AGS using PTS
2) wait for snapshot annoucment
3) sell pts when high
4) get your shares from AGS
5) buy low after snapshot

sounds reasonable to me

That was reasonable when AGS existed. I'm talking about today, this week. Why would people sell PTS if not to buy BTSX?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 18, 2014, 11:11:39 pm
@  donkeypong

True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?

Because their PTS would/should achieve the maximum selling price right before the dual snapshot.


Trivia question: Who made the most money in the MaidSafe IPO?


[od! әႡʇ әɹoɟәq ʇsnɾ ʇ! pႨos puɐ әɔuɐʌpɐ u! u!oɔɹәʇsɐɯ ʇႡƃnoq oႡʍ әsoႡʇ]
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Empirical1 on August 19, 2014, 12:34:04 am
True, but as far as I can see, the only reason to get out of PTS is if one is extremely excited about BTSX and needs to pay for it somehow. Otherwise, why have people held it until now only to flake out the week of a dual snapshot?
1) Donate to AGS using PTS
2) wait for snapshot annoucment
3) sell pts when high
4) get your shares from AGS
5) buy low after snapshot

sounds reasonable to me

That was reasonable when AGS existed. I'm talking about today, this week. Why would people sell PTS if not to buy BTSX?

If you don't like the snapshot or you think you can buy in cheaper post launch. In my case I'm a PTS seller now, but it was a close call.

My personal decisions

1. The alt-coin market is in a downturn, very negative, to be tied up now.
2. I couldn't value the Vote DAC at all. It looks interesting but Adamkernest has not been very active since the announcement. I have no idea what their short term business plan/approach is. There is limited interest at the moment. So personally I felt it had limited pre-snapshot value.
3. I like the DNS DAC. Toast is great and I think it looks strong.  I also think people like Clains in particular have done a good job in general putting the word out a bit. Hard to value post launch, mine was wide $2.5-10 Million.

Judging by investor interest, PTS volumes. I have a feeling you're not going to be missing out hugely value wise if you sell now and buy post-launch, so given the downturn in the alt-coin market & given I've already got some AGS. It made sense to me to sell some PTS.   

I have BTC but otherwise, BitShares is literally the only thing you want to be invested in right now imo. (I have a little NXT hedge left, sold 63% in the last few days, a little XCP hedge, sold 1/2 of that to buy more BTSX 2 weeks ago too )
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 19, 2014, 12:35:41 am
Yeah, I got ya. For a pump and dump, I would have waited a bit longer, though. It's all good; I'll buy more if others keep dumping.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on August 19, 2014, 07:56:08 am
You must teach me the trick to do both 1) and 3) and in that order ...  :)
Just wanted to give a reasoning for why people might not be holding!
If they were to donate to AGS they probably do not PTS and waited for them to rise before a snapshot!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on August 20, 2014, 05:51:31 pm
so....with the coming snapshot any speculation about pts price? 

personally i don't think it will go more than 0.0087 prior to snapshot. I have no opinion though about the price the days that will follow after...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 20, 2014, 11:13:46 pm
so....with the coming snapshot any speculation about pts price? 

personally i don't think it will go more than 0.0087 prior to snapshot. I have no opinion though about the price the days that will follow after...

I think PTS will go lower than it might have at another time. I sense that people are pouring any disposable income they have into BTSX right now, which probably means that post-snapshot PTS will take a hit also. Can't blame them; the future of money and banking is taking shape before our eyes. All the same, I plan to load up on PTS, because all this interest in Bitshares X will be great marketing for the next round of BitShares DACs.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Riverhead on August 20, 2014, 11:16:29 pm
All the same, I plan to load up on PTS, because all this interest in Bitshares X will be great marketing for the next round of BitShares DACs.


Ditto. I too am looking forward to the PTS door crasher sale on the 22nd/23rd. While BitsharesX has the spotlight and the glamour something like BitShares Domains and perhaps a gambling DAC could be silent and consistent income.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 20, 2014, 11:37:31 pm

While BitsharesX has the spotlight and the glamour something like BitShares Domains and perhaps a gambling DAC could be silent and consistent income.

Absolutely. And let's not forget BitShares Music, which has always been my favorite. If they ever get that thing off the ground, and if they beat Amazon and Apple into the crypto space, that one could be enormous.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Riverhead on August 20, 2014, 11:47:44 pm

While BitsharesX has the spotlight and the glamour something like BitShares Domains and perhaps a gambling DAC could be silent and consistent income.

Absolutely. And let's not forget BitShares Music, which has always been my favorite. If they ever get that thing off the ground, and if they beat Amazon and Apple into the crypto space, that one could be enormous.
I had forgotten about that one. Makes your head spin.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: mf-tzo on August 21, 2014, 11:03:25 am
I agree with all that but it seems that people have underestimated a lot DNS... I would expect today that PTS skyrockets and that's not the case and my guess is because there is much confusion about the total supply upon launching so people can figure out fait PTS value based on estimated market cap... In any case I am not selling at this price my few remaining PTS....
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 21, 2014, 06:13:59 pm
I will give 1000 BTSX to anybody who gives me a good explanation why his/her PTS from before the end of the AGS donation period  are not in the AGS fund already! (This prize has about $1,000,000 value in about 2-2,5 years in my estimation.)

The only way it makes sense is if you do not like one particular upcoming DAC and you want to sell them PTS shortly before its snapshot day and buy them after it. But which one don't you like? Music - great potential (even though I do not know if anybody is actually developing it). HackerFish is making the lottery (play) DAC into something great - not a simple  casino but a platform for the casinos! Truthcoin is probably just a centralize business on a blockchain, but even so the potential market is in the hundred of millions or revenue....

PS
And sorry I will be the judge what I deem good explanation!
I do not like  DAC A do not qualify! 
Concrete example with numbers will increase your chances!
This offer is good for 5 days.

TheOnion
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 21, 2014, 06:45:19 pm
I will give 1000 BTSX to anybody who gives me a good explanation why his/her PTS from before the end of the AGS donation period  are not in the AGS fund already! (This prize has about $1,000,000 value in about 2-2,5 years in my estimation.)

The only way it makes sense is if you do not like one particular upcoming DAC and you want to sell them PTS shortly before its snapshot day and buy them after it. But which one don't you like? Music - great potential (even though I do not know if anybody is actually developing it). HackerFish is making the lottery (play) DAC into something great - not a simple  casino but a platform for the casinos! Truthcoin is probably just a centralize business on a blockchain, but even so the potential market is in the hundred of millions or revenue....

PS
And sorry I will be the judge what I deem good explanation!
I do not like  DAC A do not qualify! 
Concrete example with numbers will increase your chances!
This offer is good for 5 days.

TheOnion

OK, I'll bite, since I still have PTS that I did not donate or sell. You are asking, basically, why did I hold onto it when I could have garnered a bigger impact via AGS donations? I did both, but I still have plenty of PTS.

Reason 1: The social consensus (f.k.a. the Social Contract) suggests that each DAC allocate at least 10% each to PTS and AGS holders. It can be more than 10% (for example, I believe Music will allocate 25% to each). Initially, most AGS donors were known as investors, while the majority of PTS holders were miners. Now what if there's a reason that a new DAC wants to curry particular favor with miners? Perhaps, for some reason, they are better able to promote that new DAC? More tech savvy, perhaps, when that part of the community is most valuable to an emerging DAC? More loyal? My thought was (and still is) that it's quite possible the AGS holders might be viewed by a new DAC owner as more opportunistic, e.g. more likely to sell a stake, whereas PTS holders might be viewed as better longterm stakeholders. So could a new DAC allocate 10% to AGS and 25% to PTS?

Understand, I am not characterizing AGS donors this way, since I am one myself. But what if AGS holders pump-and-dump-killed a DAC and then public opinion broke in that direction? Or what if techies are really needed to help evangelize and explain a new DAC to the world? I wanted to hedge my bets there.

Reason 2: What if PTS gets a really cool upgrade, or gets cloned with an airdrop to old PTS holders, and its holders come out ahead?

I know there are arguments against both of these. But I think either of these reasons are enough to keep some PTS in my wallet.

EDIT: typo fixed.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 21, 2014, 06:57:12 pm
Just some of my arguments against:
1.You did not provide numbers... If you did you must expect the chance of 1 happening to be a)pretty high (>75% for the more realistic values of .'b') or  b)the difference AGS:PTS to be pretty high.
2. Actually, I consider the chance of AGS>PTS bigger, if ever those two percentages do differ at any point/any DAC.


For your second point - I do not think the value of PTS is in the superiority of the technology behind it. And/or will ever be in that.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 21, 2014, 07:05:18 pm
Just some of my arguments against:
1.You did not provide numbers... If you did you must expect the chance of 1 happening to be a)pretty high (>75% for the more realistic values of .'b') or  b)the difference AGS:PTS to be pretty high.
2. Actually, I consider the chance of AGS>PTS bigger, if ever those two percentages do differ at any point/any DAC.

1. In the case of my reasons, numbers would be purely speculative. I don't like to have all my eggs in one basket and these are some reasons why not, but I wouldn't be able to value the probabilities of them occurring. If you're looking for concrete numbers, I don't have them. Some investors use a bit of intuition, as I do.

2. I don't disagree with you. But what if things turned the other way between now and some future DAC snapshot? Remember, we could see many new DACs and forks. We could be talking about months or years from now. Music's model could be used for videos or for e-books. Someone could do a full-scale gambling thing, fantasy sports, celebrity stakes, you name it. BTSX for equities such as orange juice, coffee, porkbellies. This is just the first round and I'd like to hold some PTS.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 21, 2014, 07:11:23 pm
 :) You can buy 'back' PTS with your BTSX/Launched DACs' profits!  :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 21, 2014, 07:31:23 pm
This week, this month, this six months, that's probably true. Which is why I am also an AGS donor and hold my share of BTSX. But will it still be true in a year or two from now? I'll hold some PTS to be sure.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 22, 2014, 02:52:52 am
Got myself a dose of the PTS holders' buzz.
For me personally, the shares received due to my PTS holding in DNS&VOTE will be worth 0.00021 BTC / #shares per PT). Or about $0.11/# shares per PTS.
I think I am good at those levels.???
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 22, 2014, 03:01:19 am
Got myself a dose of the PTS holders' buzz.
For me personally, the shares received due to my PTS holding in DNS&VOTE will be worth 0.00021 BTC / #shares per PT). Or about $0.11/# shares per PTS.
I think I am good at those levels.???

Glad you like my logic for holding PTS. Feel free to send my reward any time!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 22, 2014, 03:07:21 am
Unfortunately:
1.I did not have them at AGS donation end time
2.I do not hold the anymore.

So, you are ways from qualifying. This was a gig of my own that I came up with today. :)

(http://i.imgur.com/U0CSvsI.png)

[edit]
That being said - if you send me a 20 dollar bill, I will send you 1000 BTS -Just for the fame of being the guy who paid that much for a dollar.  :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 22, 2014, 03:18:02 am
Unfortunately:
1.I did not have them at AGS donation end time
2.I do not hold the anymore.

So, you are ways from qualifying. This was a gig of my own that I came up with today. :)

[edit]
That being said - if you send me a 20 dollar bill, I will send you 1000 BTS -Just for the fame of being the guy who paid that much for a dollar.  :)

We can do this electronically, right?

(http://darkcreek.com/united_states_currency/united_states_twenty_dollar_bill/money-20-front.jpg)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 22, 2014, 03:21:35 am
Even better - 1000 BTSX for a picture of $20 bill.  :)

 PM me your account name!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on August 22, 2014, 03:38:46 am
Thanks for being a stand-up guy. I'll pay it forward to charity. Know any charities who accept BTSX yet?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on August 22, 2014, 03:43:14 am

Give them to CLains / his community efforts, if you do not find any charity. They will go to a good cause that way.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on September 09, 2014, 05:53:38 am
I promised to share my thoughts on the market when I have one. Well today I do.

The topic is:
 
'BitShares Music'
Short Version:

Sell, sell, sell... whenever you get your hands on any bishashares Music shares (called Notes) sell. At whatever price the poor buyer is offering; do not give him a chance to think twice!

Compared to bitMusic Notes, LTBcoin is a stroke of genius!




Long  Version:

-Totally screwed or laughable IPO, depending on your point of view.

Let’s not talk about PTS/AGS holders – getting in 30 % of a worthless product is not much better than getting just 10%, I know getting 10% is insulting nevertheless.
The IPO is designed to follow all well-known path of ‘crypto space’ stupidity –Ethereum style, or ‘known number unknown quantity’ style IPO. In short you pay $5 for X number of shares, but you are totally unaware how many shares will be sold. With every passing day the new buyer get less number of shares per $5 but at least know how many other crazies have bought before them.  The total number of crazies still remains unknown, as there may be many more coming after them.
If this is not enough, the wise DAC creators/founders not just keep the proceeds of the ipo, they also reward themselves with free shares (about 30% of the total DAC’s shares, never the less!)



-Suspicious business model and incentive structure.

      -Well the IPO was the fun part, there the creators of this DAC just rob you in bright daylight and that is in a way honorable of them.
While they thought hard for their 30-35% free notes, in the business model we see that those Notes are not worth much. They entitle you to transactions fees… and that is pretty much it (well other than being a speculator and shorting musicUSDs at their own eXchange)
The other way to make money in this system are the following:
      – You lend money to a promising musician, he promises to give you something back (or not) if he is a success. Way to enforce such promises are something that the ‘founders’ will have to think of… but that is for later.
     -The 3rd way the system makes money is buy selling music- on $1 dollar sales here are the proposed ratios:
95% for the musician;
4% for the ‘founders’ ???? (as they have expenses for bandwidth, etc.)
1% transaction fees…



But at least bitMusic will have in house exchange, rivaling the complexity of BTSX. Do not ask me why - the answer of course is -Because they can!

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: jaran on September 09, 2014, 06:09:19 am
Quote
But at least bitMusic will have in house exchange, rivaling the complexity of BTSX. Do not ask me why - the answer of course is -Because they can!

Ya i dont get the reason for a whole new exchange either.  I always thought the whole point of all of this was the DAC would be on the bitsharex exchange.  Thus bitsharex holders also benefit because people need bitsharex to buy notes or whatever the DAC issues.  I'm confused...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: santaclause102 on September 09, 2014, 07:37:29 am
I promised to share my thoughts on the market when I have one. Well today I do.

The topic is:
 
'BitShares Music'
Short Version:

Sell, sell, sell... whenever you get your hands on any bishashares Music shares (called Notes) sell. At whatever price the poor buyer is offering; do not give him a chance to think twice!

Compared to bitMusic Notes, LTBcoin is a stroke of genius!




Long  Version:

-Totally screwed or laughable IPO, depending on your point of view.

Let’s not talk about PTS/AGS holders – getting in 30 % of a worthless product is not much better than getting just 10%, I know getting 10% is insulting nevertheless.
The IPO is designed to follow all well-known path of ‘crypto space’ stupidity –Ethereum style, or ‘known number unknown quantity’ style IPO. In short you pay $5 for X number of shares, but you are totally unaware how many shares will be sold. With every passing day the new buyer get less number of shares per $5 but at least know how many other crazies have bought before them.  The total number of crazies still remains unknown, as there may be many more coming after them.
If this is not enough, the wise DAC creators/founders not just keep the proceeds of the ipo, they also reward themselves with free shares (about 30% of the total DAC’s shares, never the less!)



-Suspicious business model and incentive structure.

      -Well the IPO was the fun part, there the creators of this DAC just rob you in bright daylight and that is in a way honorable of them.
While they thought hard for their 30-35% free notes, in the business model we see that those Notes are not worth much. They entitle you to transactions fees… and that is pretty much it (well other than being a speculator and shorting musicUSDs at their own eXchange)
The other way to make money in this system are the following:
      – You lend money to a promising musician, he promises to give you something back (or not) if he is a success. Way to enforce such promises are something that the ‘founders’ will have to think of… but that is for later.
     -The 3rd way the system makes money is buy selling music- on $1 dollar sales here are the proposed ratios:
95% for the musician;
4% for the ‘founders’ ???? (as they have expenses for bandwidth, etc.)
1% transaction fees…



But at least bitMusic will have in house exchange, rivaling the complexity of BTSX. Do not ask me why - the answer of course is -Because they can!
Agree on the IPO model. It has the downside of not knowing what you will get / at which market cap you buy in. Instead an ASG style fundraiser or normal bank style IPOs would make sense. For the latter you would have to valuate the company / nodes beforehand.

As for the 10%. That could have been more I agree. But no reason to act against the DAC or refuse it! Be grateful for what you get! No one has to honor anything. Its all a free market. If you think 10% is too low create or help create a competitor that honors more. All voluntary.

As for why nodes should be worth s.t.:
- Two types of tx fees: Normal transaction processing fees and a higher fee for buying music.
- You need bitUSD backed by nodes to buy music (whether creating an own bitUSD market on that chain is advisable I dont know).
I dont think that is that bad.

If you criticize someone you should be able to say how you would make it better. What would be your business / monetization model?

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on September 09, 2014, 07:41:56 am
let's see the details once cob reveals them
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on September 09, 2014, 08:11:20 am
I promised to share my thoughts on the market when I have one. Well today I do.

The topic is:
 
'BitShares Music'
Short Version:

Sell, sell, sell... whenever you get your hands on any bishashares Music shares (called Notes) sell. At whatever price the poor buyer is offering; do not give him a chance to think twice!

Compared to bitMusic Notes, LTBcoin is a stroke of genius!




Long  Version:

-Totally screwed or laughable IPO, depending on your point of view.

Let’s not talk about PTS/AGS holders – getting in 30 % of a worthless product is not much better than getting just 10%, I know getting 10% is insulting nevertheless.
The IPO is designed to follow all well-known path of ‘crypto space’ stupidity –Ethereum style, or ‘known number unknown quantity’ style IPO. In short you pay $5 for X number of shares, but you are totally unaware how many shares will be sold. With every passing day the new buyer get less number of shares per $5 but at least know how many other crazies have bought before them.  The total number of crazies still remains unknown, as there may be many more coming after them.
If this is not enough, the wise DAC creators/founders not just keep the proceeds of the ipo, they also reward themselves with free shares (about 30% of the total DAC’s shares, never the less!)



-Suspicious business model and incentive structure.

      -Well the IPO was the fun part, there the creators of this DAC just rob you in bright daylight and that is in a way honorable of them.
While they thought hard for their 30-35% free notes, in the business model we see that those Notes are not worth much. They entitle you to transactions fees… and that is pretty much it (well other than being a speculator and shorting musicUSDs at their own eXchange)
The other way to make money in this system are the following:
      – You lend money to a promising musician, he promises to give you something back (or not) if he is a success. Way to enforce such promises are something that the ‘founders’ will have to think of… but that is for later.
     -The 3rd way the system makes money is buy selling music- on $1 dollar sales here are the proposed ratios:
95% for the musician;
4% for the ‘founders’ ???? (as they have expenses for bandwidth, etc.)
1% transaction fees…



But at least bitMusic will have in house exchange, rivaling the complexity of BTSX. Do not ask me why - the answer of course is -Because they can!
Agree on the IPO model. It has the downside of not knowing what you will get / at which market cap you buy in. Instead an ASG style fundraiser or normal bank style IPOs would make sense. For the latter you would have to valuate the company / nodes beforehand.

As for the 10%. That could have been more I agree. But no reason to act against the DAC or refuse it! Be grateful for what you get! No one has to honor anything. Its all a free market. If you think 10% is too low create or help create a competitor that honors more. All voluntary.

As for why nodes should be worth s.t.:
- Two types of tx fees: Normal transaction processing fees and a higher fee for buying music.
- You need bitUSD backed by nodes to buy music (whether creating an own bitUSD market on that chain is advisable I dont know).

If you criticize someone you should be able to say how you would make it better. What would be your business / monetization model?

Oh, my model? It will be the same.

-I will give myself 35% of all shares - as you all know I am 'the best marketer and financial mind around'.

-I will get the shadiest of shady IPOs to get as much money as I can get.("Jump in the pool with a number in your hand", is a pretty good model I think...  -aka 'Who the fuck cares what one is getting for his money")
-Then I will tell all PTS/AGS holders that they are better off with 2% in trillion dollar DAC than with 30% in a worthless one. After taking  their stake, I will just make another IPO to sell 65% of those, and will keep 35% for myself (myself aka the best thing in finance and marketing after...)


Then I will make an exchange on my DAC, and will secure the bitMusicUSD with the shares I have accrued above. Each  bitMusicUSD  will be backed by some of my (free Notes). The good part (amongst others) is that no other shorter can compete with me - after all I have 70% of the Notes, and I got them for...free.

Should I go on....



Or we can wait 2 weeks/months, for the cobs latest twist, as the more optimistic of us suggest...
let's see the details once cob reveals them
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on September 09, 2014, 08:32:51 am
:-)
<- naive guy
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: santaclause102 on September 09, 2014, 08:46:03 am
tony it is very entertaining to read you sarcastic posts (not kidding) but it would give your critique more weight if you can come up with an alternative plan...
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on September 09, 2014, 08:54:04 am
tony it is very entertaining to read you sarcastic posts (not kidding) but it would give your critique more weight if you can come up with an alternative plan...
+5%

constructive critique > sarcasm (although more entertaining :) )
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: liondani on September 09, 2014, 09:43:16 am
tony it is very entertaining to read you sarcastic posts (not kidding) but it would give your critique more weight if you can come up with an alternative plan...

if I see a ugly woman and I share my thoughts with my brother, it doesn't mean she isn't ugly
because I didn't advised her to choose the right face lifter..

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YKYinnCIcVw/S-pdkRDS1II/AAAAAAAAFOI/QPinA0wzzcY/s1600/JocelynWildensteinPlasticSurgery.jpg)


PS If she thinks she is beautiful, everything else doesn't matter    ;D
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: CLains on September 09, 2014, 11:11:04 am
Sometimes your creativity is downright brutal liondani.

I hope cob and crew gives the community some time to critique the plan before they make it final.. If a genius like bytemaster believes in full transparency and constantly getting people to attack his thoughts and plans, .. how arrogant do other people have to be if they believe they can get it right from the get-go? In all probability it is motivated as much by fear as arrogance.

We should observe not so much what their initial plan is, but how they respond and handle valid criticism. Wasnn't this a lesson from Shark Tank as well? But let us wait until we get something official! :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Chuckone on September 09, 2014, 12:19:50 pm
But let us wait until we get something official! :)

Wise advice!

1) I think though it's kind of weird investors will put money in "notes" instead of investing in equity of the DAC.

2) The fact that 30% of all the notes will be hoarded by the centralized corporation behind it (and its founders), is kind of weird also. Let's say the DAC is worth 100 000 000$ at some point... The founders' stake will be worth 5M$ for a few months worth of work? Also they will get paid by the corporation running the whole thing (cumulating tx fees), and the corporation stake will be 25M$? (and it would be safe to assume the corporation behind it is owned and controlled by the founders). I might be wrong, but this scheme is created in a way that money will flow mostly in one direction: The founders.

I do understand the capitalism principle, and it seems very well applied here.

I might be wrong (and I really hope I am)

Investors will probably make a nice profit out of it, no doubt, I don't disagree with that. But it's a leap of faith, as they don't have any idea how many notes their investment entitle them to (as a percentage of the total investor's allowance).

One thing for sure, is that no matter how much the music DAC is worth (even just a few millions in market cap), a few stake holders (founders) will make a fortune. I guess that's the whole point of this scheme?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: fuzzy on September 09, 2014, 12:55:24 pm
But let us wait until we get something official! :)

Wise advice!

1) I think though it's kind of weird investors will put money in "notes" instead of investing in equity of the DAC.

2) The fact that 30% of all the notes will be hoarded by the centralized corporation behind it (and its founders), is kind of weird also. Let's say the DAC is worth 100 000 000$ at some point... The founders' stake will be worth 5M$ for a few months worth of work? Also they will get paid by the corporation running the whole thing (cumulating tx fees), and the corporation stake will be 25M$? (and it would be safe to assume the corporation behind it is owned and controlled by the founders). I might be wrong, but this scheme is created in a way that money will flow mostly in one direction: The founders.

I do understand the capitalism principle, and it seems very well applied here.

I might be wrong (and I really hope I am)

Investors will probably make a nice profit out of it, no doubt, I don't disagree with that. But it's a leap of faith, as they don't have any idea how many notes their investment entitle them to (as a percentage of the total investor's allowance).

One thing for sure, is that no matter how much the music DAC is worth (even just a few millions in market cap), a few stake holders (founders) will make a fortune. I guess that's the whole point of this scheme?

Ug...this isn't a scheme and although I am not a fan of Ethereum itself the way they funded it was pretty damn well thought out.  AGS, too, was very well thought out.  As far as DACs having a core group with vested interest in it...that is not necessarily bad.  Some people "hoard" what they think is valuable while others sell what they think is going to lose value.  Please relax a bit on this "hoarding" stuff Chuck...we can go the complete opposite direction and complain about Pump and Dumps for the thousands of worthless altcoins each day, mined into existence and pumped onto newbies to syphon their hard earned Satoshis.

The wonderful thing about bitshares PTS is that YOU can go buy them and get a stake in all of these.  Yeh, sure, the early adopters who took the risk will likely have a cheaper price in that stake than you, but I am sure you have a cheaper stake in other projects than others.  Does that make it unfair?  Or does it mean I didn't research enough to find those gems before they began to truly shine? 

These are things worth considering.  At risk of sounding like i'm kissing ass, Bytemaster and the I3 team--though not perfect--have always done their best to be open about the project, plans and the rollout.  We are all wading in waters no human has ever seen before much less jumped into.  Yet here we all are...so early in the game.  Let's be happy about this fact and realize that there is literally a multitrillion dollar market out there for crypto once it reaches full adoption.  It is a good idea to have a huge number of DACs that clone each other, offering competitive market alternatives and distribution models. 

I am not for the one chain to rule them all concept, so I really like the idea of all systems that invite clones to compete with each other.  This is especially true when talking about the long term value PTS brings to the equation.  It is the lowest risk asset that will pay dividends in new companies that use the toolkit.  How much better (and fairer) can that "scheme" be?  Certainly more "noob" friendly than Bitcoin...and certainly more ethical than a bunch of miners mining "shit"coins, flipping them to Bitcoin holders and exiting stage left.

If I were new to crypto--I'd want to own 50% BTC and 50% PTS because PTS diversifies me automatically just as a reward for holding it.  That seems to be what dan and the team always do...ironically.   Make sure those who hold the tokens they create have an element that gives back as much value as possible to the holders.   
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Riverhead on September 09, 2014, 12:59:31 pm
Typically when a company's executives own a large portion of their own shares it's considered a good thing. If the founders truly believe this to be a billion dollar DAC I imagine it will take years to get there so a quick deploy, dump, and run seems unlikely.


I'm willing to see this out. Bytemaster and Stan haven't raised any flags yet but as they've met with the founders it'd be interesting to hear their perspective on the plan.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: Chuckone on September 09, 2014, 01:22:21 pm
But let us wait until we get something official! :)

Wise advice!

1) I think though it's kind of weird investors will put money in "notes" instead of investing in equity of the DAC.

2) The fact that 30% of all the notes will be hoarded by the centralized corporation behind it (and its founders), is kind of weird also. Let's say the DAC is worth 100 000 000$ at some point... The founders' stake will be worth 5M$ for a few months worth of work? Also they will get paid by the corporation running the whole thing (cumulating tx fees), and the corporation stake will be 25M$? (and it would be safe to assume the corporation behind it is owned and controlled by the founders). I might be wrong, but this scheme is created in a way that money will flow mostly in one direction: The founders.

I do understand the capitalism principle, and it seems very well applied here.

I might be wrong (and I really hope I am)

Investors will probably make a nice profit out of it, no doubt, I don't disagree with that. But it's a leap of faith, as they don't have any idea how many notes their investment entitle them to (as a percentage of the total investor's allowance).

One thing for sure, is that no matter how much the music DAC is worth (even just a few millions in market cap), a few stake holders (founders) will make a fortune. I guess that's the whole point of this scheme?

Ug...this isn't a scheme and although I am not a fan of Ethereum itself the way they funded it was pretty damn well thought out.  AGS, too, was very well thought out.  As far as DACs having a core group with vested interest in it...that is not necessarily bad.  Some people "hoard" what they think is valuable while others sell what they think is going to lose value.  Please relax a bit on this "hoarding" stuff Chuck...we can go the complete opposite direction and complain about Pump and Dumps for the thousands of worthless altcoins each day, mined into existence and pumped onto newbies to syphon their hard earned Satoshis.

The wonderful thing about bitshares PTS is that YOU can go buy them and get a stake in all of these.  Yeh, sure, the early adopters who took the risk will likely have a cheaper price in that stake than you, but I am sure you have a cheaper stake in other projects than others.  Does that make it unfair?  Or does it mean I didn't research enough to find those gems before they began to truly shine? 

These are things worth considering.  At risk of sounding like i'm kissing ass, Bytemaster and the I3 team--though not perfect--have always done their best to be open about the project, plans and the rollout.  We are all wading in waters no human has ever seen before much less jumped into.  Yet here we all are...so early in the game.  Let's be happy about this fact and realize that there is literally a multitrillion dollar market out there for crypto once it reaches full adoption.  It is a good idea to have a huge number of DACs that clone each other, offering competitive market alternatives and distribution models. 

I am not for the one chain to rule them all concept, so I really like the idea of all systems that invite clones to compete with each other.  This is especially true when talking about the long term value PTS brings to the equation.  It is the lowest risk asset that will pay dividends in new companies that use the toolkit.  How much better (and fairer) can that "scheme" be?  Certainly more "noob" friendly than Bitcoin...and certainly more ethical than a bunch of miners mining "shit"coins, flipping them to Bitcoin holders and exiting stage left.

I understand your point!

Honestly, I really like the concept of PTS/AGS created by I3, and I'm all in for competition between DACs with varying business models, all using the same platform. I've always respected the open-minded community that take into account valuable opinions as well as the transparency of the developpers.

I'm just not agreeing on the distribution of this DAC in particular. I'm not even saying I would prefer more for PTS/AGS, because it respects the consensus of 10%/10% and I'm perfectly happy with this. As a passive investor, I don't expect to get a big piece of the cake, I'm very happy just to be able to participate in this experiment. I'm just saying that as it is, the communications for this DAC are kind of shady and open for interpretation (interpreting is exactly what I'm doing right now), and compared to the other DACs that are currently online (or going to be), there's a lot of the "equity" that will be flowing in the direction of the founders/centralized corporation. Either they hoard those notes or they spend it, I don't care, but I'm not comfortable with the fact that approximately  30% of the total equity is in very few hands, pretty much like all the other premined altcoins (and I also include Bitcoin in that statement). 

There will always be an early adopter's advantage, I agree with that. And those working to get any DAC online should be rewarded for their effort and the risk associated (if they did put their assets/ass on the line).

Anyway, the whole point is simply to say that I disagree with the distribution as it currently is, and also that the communication with the community is lacking (to make things short).
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: toast on September 09, 2014, 02:11:58 pm
I don't think anybody has talked about the latest/best notes model. I'm talking to eddie and cob about this.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: jaran on September 09, 2014, 02:40:32 pm
Instead of so much going to the private corporation PeerTracks maybe those shares could go to the DAC to be used to give say 100 top artist a stake in the DAC if they agree to use it and promote it.



 
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on September 09, 2014, 05:13:21 pm
tony it is very entertaining to read you sarcastic posts (not kidding) but it would give your critique more weight if you can come up with an alternative plan...

Removing the stupid  and or greedy parts of the plan will be a start.
1. If you want to give just 20% to AGS/PTS, fine, it your right. (The useless bastards are not a good marketing group anyway, why give them more).

2.If you think IPO is the best way to go - fine;
-Make a model that makes sense ('Here investor buy some notes', 'What PERCENT will 100 BTC buy me?' -'Well we do not know, but definitely 5Mil shares" - Does, not cut it! )
AGS style is a good start. Improve on it!
-Buy as much as you want through that IPO

3. Want a stability of a dollar, in the payments in the system? - Good - Make a gateway on BTSX exchange, to make trading Notes for bitUSD. (Building your own exchange for that purpose - Wistful overkill). You can have automatic Note<--> bitUSD on your site for the customer convenience if you would like.

4. Having 5% fee of every sell (for the bandwidth???, how did you calculate it will be enough?), in current form it just smells money grab, money grab. My solution leave 25% as delegate fee. Let the delegates/Note-holders decide what is a good split bandwidth/Profit (Burning)/Marketing etc. You will run quite a few of them delegates anyway.


That's me thinking 15min on the subject.
For 9 mo. the 'FOUNDERS" came with nothing but schemes to get bigger part of the pie for themselves.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on September 09, 2014, 09:34:32 pm

For 9 mo. the 'FOUNDERS" came with nothing but schemes to get bigger part of the pie for themselves.

Hopefully, it will turn out that they've been quite busy behind the scenes. Personally, I've always been more excited about BitShares Music than any other DAC. It could be the first DAC (aside from BTSX) to present something new to a potentially mass audience that doesn't know or care what a DAC is. Like others, I've been eagerly awaiting details. Until we get an official announcement, I think we shouldn't be jumping to too many conclusions. So far, I'll agree with you, Tony, that the IPO idea rubs me the wrong way, after all the money I've spent on AGS and PTS. There was a time when we were promised 50% of this DAC. That sort of promise, when people are spending money in anticipation of it, is important. BitShares Music or PeerTracks will not get another dime from me in its IPO. I've bought in heavily already, even if it's now a share of 20% and not 50%.

However, I remain very optimistic about BitShares Music. Maybe I don't need a share of 50%. If I own only some small fraction of 1%, then who knows, that could be worth a fortune. And the IPO could turn out to be a positive if that gives this business the resources to succeed. I'll be patient and see how this develops.

One more thing to consider: in this open source world, a DAC may need an IPO or fundraiser to cement its first-mover advantage. If a developer has blown his wad just to get the thing off the ground, and then someone else with more resources comes in and clones the thing right away, able to pour those resources into the next stage, then that first effort is at least partly wasted. But a first-mover with a big war chest can make it a lot harder for someone else to swoop in and compete at the same level. This helps to incentivize DAC development. Also, I have to guess that running BitShares Music will not be a low-maintenance operation. So I don't mind funding that to some degree.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: liondani on September 09, 2014, 09:50:54 pm

For 9 mo. the 'FOUNDERS" came with nothing but schemes to get bigger part of the pie for themselves.

Hopefully, it will turn out that they've been quite busy behind the scenes. Personally, I've always been more excited about BitShares Music than any other DAC. It could be the first DAC (aside from BTSX) to present something new to a potentially mass audience that doesn't know or care what a DAC is. Like others, I've been eagerly awaiting details. Until we get an official announcement, I think we shouldn't be jumping to too many conclusions. So far, I'll agree with you, Tony, that the IPO idea rubs me the wrong way, after all the money I've spent on AGS and PTS. There was a time when we were promised 50% of this DAC. That sort of promise, when people are spending money in anticipation of it, is important. BitShares Music or PeerTracks will not get another dime from me in its IPO. I've bought in heavily already, even if it's now a share of 20% and not 50%.

However, I remain very optimistic about BitShares Music. Maybe I don't need a share of 50%. If I own only some small fraction of 1%, then who knows, that could be worth a fortune. And the IPO could turn out to be a positive if that gives this business the resources to succeed. I'll be patient and see how this develops.

One more thing to consider: in this open source world, a DAC may need an IPO or fundraiser to cement its first-mover advantage. If a developer has blown his wad just to get the thing off the ground, and then someone else with more resources comes in and clones the thing right away, able to pour those resources into the next stage, then that first effort is at least partly wasted. But a first-mover with a big war chest can make it a lot harder for someone else to swoop in and compete at the same level. This helps to incentivize DAC development. Also, I have to guess that running BitShares Music will not be a low-maintenance operation. So I don't mind funding that to some degree.

If people like you had not invested in AGS and PTS, bitshares_toolkit would not exist right know so bitshares-music either, as simple us that...
(http://innerheights.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ungrateful.jpg)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cob on September 10, 2014, 03:38:28 am
I promised to share my thoughts on the market when I have one. Well today I do.

The topic is:
 
'BitShares Music'
Short Version:

Sell, sell, sell... whenever you get your hands on any bishashares Music shares (called Notes) sell. At whatever price the poor buyer is offering; do not give him a chance to think twice!

I don't give any financial advise so can't comment on this.

Quote
Let’s not talk about PTS/AGS holders – getting in 30 % of a worthless product is not much better than getting just 10%, I know getting 10% is insulting nevertheless.
That is why on the 8th day the lawd invented forking. PeerTracks does not have a monopoly on the BitShares toolkit.

Quote
The IPO is designed to follow all well-known path of ‘crypto space’ stupidity –Ethereum style, or ‘known number unknown quantity’ style IPO. In short you pay $5 for X number of shares, but you are totally unaware how many shares will be sold. With every passing day the new buyer get less number of shares per $5 but at least know how many other crazies have bought before them.  The total number of crazies still remains unknown, as there may be many more coming after them.
If by stupidity you mean most successful crypto IPO yet. Then yes!
Our first goal is to raise capital... effectively.
In the absence of price, this is the simplest model imo. We put up a random arbitrary price per Note. We don't know how many Notes will sell and so we can't sell out / run out. Now after the 6-8 week Note pre-sale, we use the number of sold notes to determine the total number of units this DAC will have.
If only 5 Notes sell, then the DAC will have a low unit number. If a million sell, then we base our DAC unit amount on this. People that bought Notes still get their percentage.
Similar to what AGS did really. Whenever I donated funds to the AGS addresses I never knew how many AGS I would get. I knew how many were sold that day but didn't know how many "crazies" as you put it where also going to jump in the pot.
This is the exact same thing only it's the other variable that is missing. In one case it's the fixed amount of "shares" the other case it's the % of shares.

Quote
If this is not enough, the wise DAC creators/founders not just keep the proceeds of the ipo, they also reward themselves with free shares (about 30% of the total DAC’s shares, never the less!)
Of course we are going to keep the proceeds. What do you think we would do? Give it to charity? We have an entire industry to revolutionize. We need all the funds we can get.


Quote
      -Well the IPO was the fun part, there the creators of this DAC just rob you in bright daylight and that is in a way honorable of them.
While they thought hard for their 30-35% free notes, in the business model we see that those Notes are not worth much. They entitle you to transactions fees… and that is pretty much it (well other than being a speculator and shorting musicUSDs at their own eXchange)
Yes, COB is taking around 2% of Notes. If it pleases you, I can just take all my bitcoin, send it to the Pre-Sale address so that it looks fair.
1. Seems like a waste of time to send my funds from my btc address, to the peertracks pre-sale address which I will also control...
2. this will just inflate our Pre-sale numbers. Kinda crooked imo
3. How is it so surprising that I would want stake in this project? I've been at this since Febuary it would be highly fishy if I didn't have any stake at all in this haha

As for the % going to the peertracks corporation, this is another entity.
These are the corporate funds. They are to be used in whatever way benefits the whole endeavour. We might need them for partnerships, marketing, getting big name artists to jump on, etc.
They also are used to generate revenue via transaction fees. If the fees are enough to cover Peertracks' expenses, we can then reduce (or possible even eliminate) the small fee the website charges on each song/album sale.

Also, keep in mind that at launch, Peertracks will pretty much be synonymous to BitShares Music. The blockchain itself NEEDS a platform that ties every coins together, that allows a place to actually browse and download music, etc. Without a user friendly front end, you'll only have Ode to Satoshi being downloaded lol. No offense to Lij and John. That song is badass. But a song here and a song there just is not going to get crypto to mass adoption.
At launch, no Peertracks, no BitShares Music... AT LAUNCH. Now give it a couple months or years and competitors will pop up, or maybe it'll be a site in china that does the same thing, or a spanish music focused website, or an audiobook store, etc.
PeerTracks will be the company bringing value to the BitShares Music Blockchain at first.
And yes, we are aware that no BitShares, no PeerTracks. This is a symbiotic relationship. PeerTracks will get high volume and exposure to BitShares Music, they BitShares music will be strong enough to survive even if PeerTracks disappears.

Think of a site that just sells bikes. Then a site that just sells cell phone cases. And another site that just sells 1 type of lamp.
Sure they get a bit of traffic...
Now think of ebay. The fact that it is a site where you can shop for anything is what gives everyone an advantage, buyers, sellers and ebay itself. It's a win / win / win. This is what PeerTracks aims to be.
Titiana coin was a great experiment but it lacks PeerTracks to make it successful.... not to mention our mechanism that brings value to the coin!


Quote
The other way to make money in this system are the following:
      – You lend money to a promising musician, he promises to give you something back (or not) if he is a success. Way to enforce such promises are something that the ‘founders’ will have to think of… but that is for later.
This is wrong. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear. We'll get to the secret sauce soon. Before we start the Pre-Sale of course.
We don't have to think about it. We already have a working, regulation compatible model. Artistcoins will have value depending on the amount of content that is sold. They are not stock in the artists, they are not equity, they do not pay dividends.

Quote
     -The 3rd way the system makes money is buy selling music- on $1 dollar sales here are the proposed ratios:
95% for the musician;
4% for the ‘founders’ ???? (as they have expenses for bandwidth, etc.)
1% transaction fees…
This is quote mining, cherry picking and a strawman.

First of all, the very first line in my post was
keep in mind these are fictitious %s and #s for the sake of simplicity

Then I say

If a song sells for 1 BitUSD (FROM the PeerTracks website), a couple of things happen.

So not only are you bashing the fictitious numbers I gave out to explain the concept. But also the big "IF"
In PeerTracks, the artist decides what price he sells his music for. It's none of our business!

Second, that fictitious 4% does not go to the founders at all. It goes to the PeerTracks corporation. And this is only on stuff PURCHASED ON PEERTRACKS. It has nothing to do with the Bitshares Music blockchain. ANYONE can start a website that uses this blockchain and charge whatever fees they want. We are betting on it!
It's like you are complaining that Bitpay takes a certain % out of merchant transaction. Well... Bitpay can do what it wants! If it screws up, a competitor will capitalize on their errors and take em over or just outcompete them.
You seam to be mixing up Bitpay with Bitcoin and PeerTracks with BitShares Music.

And to cover your final point, yes, the DAC makes money from transaction fees of of every piece of audio content sold. Be it, songs, albums, audiobooks, podcasts, lectures, etc. If you don't think that's a big enough market, look at the numbers more closely. Check out Pandora, spotify, itunes, google play, etc. Add up that potential.
Then realize that there are also transaction fees from anything else that isn't a sale. People trading around artistcoins for example. What if a band starts accepting it's artistcoin as currency for it's concerts? For it's merch? Think of the incentive artists and bands will have to make their coin worth more then the others.  We envision 1000 DOGEcoin type ecosystems all residing on the BitShares Music Blockchain.

By all means, sell sell sell ^^



To sum up.
This is going to be one hell of a game changer. Not only for the music world, but for BitShares and the crypto world. Whether you sell your Notes or not.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cob on September 10, 2014, 03:45:42 am
I hope cob and crew gives the community some time to critique the plan before they make it final.. If a genius like bytemaster believes in full transparency and constantly getting people to attack his thoughts and plans, .. how arrogant do other people have to be if they believe they can get it right from the get-go? In all probability it is motivated as much by fear as arrogance.

We should observe not so much what their initial plan is, but how they respond and handle valid criticism. Wasnn't this a lesson from Shark Tank as well? But let us wait until we get something official! :)

THIS!
Very good point here.
Bytemaster is the man. He's the reason BitShares Music is possible and the reason we have a functioning mechanism for the value of artistcoins.
He does believe in transparency he is in the open source world.
PeerTracks on the otherhand has to watch out and be sure we have a good first mover advantage. So the secret sauce stays secret until we are just about ready to roll.

I am really happy to have posted on this forum for this exact reason: the criticism! As long as it's valid and politely presented (:

So keep your input coming guys. I will read it all and address as much as I can.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cob on September 10, 2014, 03:56:05 am

I think though it's kind of weird investors will put money in "notes" instead of investing in equity of the DAC.
Notes ARE the DAC units.

Just like BTSX are the BitSharesX units.

Quote
Investors will probably make a nice profit out of it, no doubt, I don't disagree with that. But it's a leap of faith, as they don't have any idea how many notes their investment entitle them to (as a percentage of the total investor's allowance).
Just like AGS donations.
When I sent my BTC and PTS to the AGS addresses, I did not know how many AGS I would receive either.

Quote
One thing for sure, is that no matter how much the music DAC is worth (even just a few millions in market cap), a few stake holders (founders) will make a fortune. I guess that's the whole point of this scheme?

If we wanted to pump and dump, I'm sure there would be simpler ways haha.

The goal is to, of course, make money. But do so while changing the world. I am from the Napster generation, it introduced me to P2P and I didn't care what that meant. All I cared was that when I typed "the real slim shady" I could download it in 20 minutes for free. AND it made a powerful industry crumbled.

We can do the same once again, introduce a whole generation to REAL decentralization, introduce them to the power of blockchains just as Napster introduced me to P2P, only this time it's fair for the artist and the listener.
This could really be the DAC needed to break out of the crypto micro-niche.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cob on September 10, 2014, 04:09:46 am
I'm just saying that as it is, the communications for this DAC are kind of shady and open for interpretation (interpreting is exactly what I'm doing right now), and compared to the other DACs that are currently online (or going to be), there's a lot of the "equity" that will be flowing in the direction of the founders/centralized corporation. Either they hoard those notes or they spend it, I don't care, but I'm not comfortable with the fact that approximately  30% of the total equity is in very few hands, pretty much like all the other premined altcoins (and I also include Bitcoin in that statement).

Appreciate the concern.
We have been pretty much non-existent in the public space, forums + reddit, etc. We've been focusing on the business side of things mainly. "Getting shit done" lol

This is a great moment to start a ASK ME ANYTHING Thread.

I will create it in the Music sub forum in a sec.

As for the 30% of Notes in very few hands. I address this about 4-5 posts above. And I totally understand. I took awhile before we got to these numbers.
We knew the crypto community would not particularly be thrilled about it, but the success of this project comes first. And this is aimed for the outside world, the music world, the teen world, the tween world, the fandom world, the fanclub world.
Everyone (PTS+AGS dudes) is getting their 10%+10% anyway. We are having a pre-sale to let people that can see the potential buy in further and of course raise much needed capital. Remember we are not funded by BitShares. At all. We aren't simply launching a DAC that they built. That would not have taken 6 months of our time! We are creating a competitor to itunes and google play! And it's got to plug in to what BitShares is bulding. Did I mention regulations!? Look up the Bitlicense, the SEC, fincen and OMG the complications with the IRS and CRA for an international partnership between Eddie and I.

We are not simply copy pasting some code here guys (:
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on September 10, 2014, 04:16:07 am
I promised to share my thoughts on the market when I have one. Well today I do.

The topic is:
 
'BitShares Music'
Short Version:

Sell, sell, sell... whenever you get your hands on any bishashares Music shares (called Notes) sell. At whatever price the poor buyer is offering; do not give him a chance to think twice!

I don't give any financial advise so can't comment on this.

Quote
Let’s not talk about PTS/AGS holders – getting in 30 % of a worthless product is not much better than getting just 10%, I know getting 10% is insulting nevertheless.
That is why on the 8th day the lawd invented forking. PeerTracks does not have a monopoly on the BitShares toolkit.

Quote
The IPO is designed to follow all well-known path of ‘crypto space’ stupidity –Ethereum style, or ‘known number unknown quantity’ style IPO. In short you pay $5 for X number of shares, but you are totally unaware how many shares will be sold. With every passing day the new buyer get less number of shares per $5 but at least know how many other crazies have bought before them.  The total number of crazies still remains unknown, as there may be many more coming after them.
If by stupidity you mean most successful crypto IPO yet. Then yes!
Our first goal is to raise capital... effectively.
In the absence of price, this is the simplest model imo. We put up a random arbitrary price per Note. We don't know how many Notes will sell and so we can't sell out / run out. Now after the 6-8 week Note pre-sale, we use the number of sold notes to determine the total number of units this DAC will have.
If only 5 Notes sell, then the DAC will have a low unit number. If a million sell, then we base our DAC unit amount on this. People that bought Notes still get their percentage.
Similar to what AGS did really. Whenever I donated funds to the AGS addresses I never knew how many AGS I would get. I knew how many were sold that day but didn't know how many "crazies" as you put it where also going to jump in the pot.
This is the exact same thing only it's the other variable that is missing. In one case it's the fixed amount of "shares" the other case it's the % of shares.

Quote
If this is not enough, the wise DAC creators/founders not just keep the proceeds of the ipo, they also reward themselves with free shares (about 30% of the total DAC’s shares, never the less!)
Of course we are going to keep the proceeds. What do you think we would do? Give it to charity? We have an entire industry to revolutionize. We need all the funds we can get.


Quote
      -Well the IPO was the fun part, there the creators of this DAC just rob you in bright daylight and that is in a way honorable of them.
While they thought hard for their 30-35% free notes, in the business model we see that those Notes are not worth much. They entitle you to transactions fees… and that is pretty much it (well other than being a speculator and shorting musicUSDs at their own eXchange)
Yes, COB is taking around 2% of Notes. If it pleases you, I can just take all my bitcoin, send it to the Pre-Sale address so that it looks fair.
1. Seems like a waste of time to send my funds from my btc address, to the peertracks pre-sale address which I will also control...
2. this will just inflate our Pre-sale numbers. Kinda crooked imo
3. How is it so surprising that I would want stake in this project? I've been at this since Febuary it would be highly fishy if I didn't have any stake at all in this haha

As for the % going to the peertracks corporation, this is another entity.
These are the corporate funds. They are to be used in whatever way benefits the whole endeavour. We might need them for partnerships, marketing, getting big name artists to jump on, etc.
They also are used to generate revenue via transaction fees. If the fees are enough to cover Peertracks' expenses, we can then reduce (or possible even eliminate) the small fee the website charges on each song/album sale.

Also, keep in mind that at launch, Peertracks will pretty much be synonymous to BitShares Music. The blockchain itself NEEDS a platform that ties every coins together, that allows a place to actually browse and download music, etc. Without a user friendly front end, you'll only have Ode to Satoshi being downloaded lol. No offense to Lij and John. That song is badass. But a song here and a song there just is not going to get crypto to mass adoption.
At launch, no Peertracks, no BitShares Music... AT LAUNCH. Now give it a couple months or years and competitors will pop up, or maybe it'll be a site in china that does the same thing, or a spanish music focused website, or an audiobook store, etc.
PeerTracks will be the company bringing value to the BitShares Music Blockchain at first.
And yes, we are aware that no BitShares, no PeerTracks. This is a symbiotic relationship. PeerTracks will get high volume and exposure to BitShares Music, they BitShares music will be strong enough to survive even if PeerTracks disappears.

Think of a site that just sells bikes. Then a site that just sells cell phone cases. And another site that just sells 1 type of lamp.
Sure they get a bit of traffic...
Now think of ebay. The fact that it is a site where you can shop for anything is what gives everyone an advantage, buyers, sellers and ebay itself. It's a win / win / win. This is what PeerTracks aims to be.
Titiana coin was a great experiment but it lacks PeerTracks to make it successful.... not to mention our mechanism that brings value to the coin!


Quote
The other way to make money in this system are the following:
      – You lend money to a promising musician, he promises to give you something back (or not) if he is a success. Way to enforce such promises are something that the ‘founders’ will have to think of… but that is for later.
This is wrong. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear. We'll get to the secret sauce soon. Before we start the Pre-Sale of course.
We don't have to think about it. We already have a working, regulation compatible model. Artistcoins will have value depending on the amount of content that is sold. They are not stock in the artists, they are not equity, they do not pay dividends.

Quote
     -The 3rd way the system makes money is buy selling music- on $1 dollar sales here are the proposed ratios:
95% for the musician;
4% for the ‘founders’ ???? (as they have expenses for bandwidth, etc.)
1% transaction fees…
This is quote mining, cherry picking and a strawman.

First of all, the very first line in my post was
keep in mind these are fictitious %s and #s for the sake of simplicity

Then I say

If a song sells for 1 BitUSD (FROM the PeerTracks website), a couple of things happen.

So not only are you bashing the fictitious numbers I gave out to explain the concept. But also the big "IF"
In PeerTracks, the artist decides what price he sells his music for. It's none of our business!

Second, that fictitious 4% does not go to the founders at all. It goes to the PeerTracks corporation. And this is only on stuff PURCHASED ON PEERTRACKS. It has nothing to do with the Bitshares Music blockchain. ANYONE can start a website that uses this blockchain and charge whatever fees they want. We are betting on it!
It's like you are complaining that Bitpay takes a certain % out of merchant transaction. Well... Bitpay can do what it wants! If it screws up, a competitor will capitalize on their errors and take em over or just outcompete them.
You seam to be mixing up Bitpay with Bitcoin and PeerTracks with BitShares Music.

And to cover your final point, yes, the DAC makes money from transaction fees of of every piece of audio content sold. Be it, songs, albums, audiobooks, podcasts, lectures, etc. If you don't think that's a big enough market, look at the numbers more closely. Check out Pandora, spotify, itunes, google play, etc. Add up that potential.
Then realize that there are also transaction fees from anything else that isn't a sale. People trading around artistcoins for example. What if a band starts accepting it's artistcoin as currency for it's concerts? For it's merch? Think of the incentive artists and bands will have to make their coin worth more then the others.  We envision 1000 DOGEcoin type ecosystems all residing on the BitShares Music Blockchain.

By all means, sell sell sell ^^



To sum up.
This is going to be one hell of a game changer. Not only for the music world, but for BitShares and the crypto world. Whether you sell your Notes or not.

So you are sticking to the original plan, then?

If you stick to yours, I will stick to mine.

I will just post the particular arrogant quote below, even though the whole post is low quality, so it is not a big surprise but:

Quote
If only 5 Notes sell, then the DAC will have a low unit number. If a million sell, then we base our DAC unit amount on this. People that bought Notes still get their percentage.
Similar to what AGS did really. Whenever I donated funds to the AGS addresses I never knew how many AGS I would get. I knew how many were sold that day but didn't know how many "crazies" as you put it where also going to jump in the pot.
This is the exact same thing only it's the other variable that is missing. In one case it's the fixed amount of "shares" the other case it's the % of shares.

How to put what you said to your level of arguments... Let's give it a try:

Shark Tank example: How many times do you think the sharks have taken a deal - '5 Million shares in a company, that represent unknown % of the company' ?

[Hint the number looks like 'O']

I do not know ... I hope in the music business, such reasoning has a better chance of to be taken seriously...


[EDIT] BTW you have not included my other post, probably because it proves that your arguments are not well places, are cherry picking and outright twisting of the meaning I try to convey. Here is it for your (in)convenience.

tony it is very entertaining to read you sarcastic posts (not kidding) but it would give your critique more weight if you can come up with an alternative plan...

Removing the stupid  and or greedy parts of the plan will be a start.
1. If you want to give just 20% to AGS/PTS, fine, it your right. (The useless bastards are not a good marketing group anyway, why give them more).

2.If you think IPO is the best way to go - fine;
-Make a model that makes sense ('Here investor buy some notes', 'What PERCENT will 100 BTC buy me?' -'Well we do not know, but definitely 5Mil shares" - Does, not cut it! )
AGS style is a good start. Improve on it!
-Buy as much as you want through that IPO

3. Want a stability of a dollar, in the payments in the system? - Good - Make a gateway on BTSX exchange, to make trading Notes for bitUSD. (Building your own exchange for that purpose - Wistful overkill). You can have automatic Note<--> bitUSD on your site for the customer convenience if you would like.

4. Having 5% fee of every sell (for the bandwidth???, how did you calculate it will be enough?), in current form it just smells money grab, money grab. My solution leave 25% as delegate fee. Let the delegates/Note-holders decide what is a good split bandwidth/Profit (Burning)/Marketing etc. You will run quite a few of them delegates anyway.


That's me thinking 15min on the subject.
For 9 mo. the 'FOUNDERS" came with nothing but schemes to get bigger part of the pie for themselves.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cob on September 10, 2014, 04:38:26 am

How to put what you said to your level of arguments... Let's give it a try:

Shark Tank example: How many times do you think the sharks have taken a deal - '5 Million shares in a company, that represent unknown % of the company' ?

[Hint the number looks like 'O']

I do not know ... I hope in the music business, such reasoning has a better chance of to be taken seriously...

Funny you should mention Shark tank...

Alright, there is a P2P ledger out there that proves this event has happened from X-mas 2013 to July 2014. It happened EACH day, multiple times.

You can look up the AGS donation addresses. The PTS one, and the BTC one.

To take your exact quote and modify it to prove my point further:
"How many times do you think the Bitshares community member have taken a deal - '10 000 shares in a company, that represent unknown % of the company' ?"

[Hint the number looks like 'a shit ton']

Everybody reading this is most likely guilty of having done this exact thing. And guess what, we are all happy with the outcome. Those that didn't like it, DIDN'T SEND BTC to a pool of 10 000 AGS when they had NO clue how many shares they'd actually get.

So go ahead and attack AGS all you want. We are taking this "can't sell out / run out of shares" concept which is a great way to raise money, and using it.

Luckily for everyone, you won't buy any Notes since you've already told us your game plan would be to SELL SELL SELL :)
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on September 10, 2014, 05:20:19 am
OK I get it.

Not knowing what % of 10K I will get on any particular day (even though the numbers never deviated more than 2 times), and knowing that there will be a total of 2 Mill AGS 'shares', is the same as not knowing the % for the whole program I will get if I put my money into it.

So  20 times, 1/20 of the total amount with 50% error, is equal to 1 time with 100,000% error in the music business. Or at least, so you say....


PS
 I do hope you cob, have no technical education and you are just a music guy. Actually, I do hope you have no science education (formal or otherwise), cause if you do, the stuff you try to pass is not ridiculous, it is scary.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: oldman on September 10, 2014, 05:39:10 am
 +5% to Cob for putting in the time and effort to respond to the community's concerns so thoroughly.

I've found his responses to be well reasoned and highly informative.

Well done!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: donkeypong on September 10, 2014, 05:42:29 am
I agree. Kudos to COB for the patient explanations. Looking forward to this launch!
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: smiley35 on September 10, 2014, 06:36:18 am
Yeah what are you getting worked up about tonk? I really don't get it. Who cares how many units exist if your going to receive a fixed percentage. It doesn't matter how many of this alt or that alt you own, its about what % you own, everything else serves to trick noobs. I'm pretty excited for this project!

Edit: oh I get it. I was thinking in terms of AGS/PTS, but you were thinking the crowdsale. I still don't understand where you are coming from though, this seems like one of the better allocations of a blockchain to me.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on September 10, 2014, 06:51:37 am
Yeah what are you getting worked up about tonk? I really don't get it. Who cares how many units exist if your going to receive a fixed percentage. It doesn't matter how many of this alt or that alt you own, its about what % you own, everything else serves to trick noobs. I'm pretty excited for this project!

I am generally pissed off, as one of the most promising DACs is being screwed up, big time.
My self interest is not the main issue here.
Although, I can see scenarios where the unwillingness to express concern regarding such behavior can affect our main projects.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: voldemort628 on September 10, 2014, 07:58:35 am
I support the view that Cob should make the fundraising as close (and fair) to AGS style as possible. Because investors normally want to get an exact number (in case of a fundraising) or at least a good guess (in case of a donation i.e ags) of how much they are gonna get in return for the amount put in.

Anyway, eagerly waiting for official ann.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: gamey on September 10, 2014, 08:08:05 am

I don't really want to pick sides but Tony has very valid points.

My questions would be, what about this music DAC makes it need to be decentralized?  Hit a chord with the kids at being anti-establishment?  Is someone trying to avoid intellectual property?  Why not just a centralized website with a db backend to keep track of shares ?

Is the music industry going to go after people ?

I'm on the fence about the crowdsale/AGS thing.  I didn't want to see it happen, but on the other hand I expected it to happen and it is better than the alternative.  I just hope the money is well spent.  I think because I don't understand why this is decentralized, I tend to have a more cynical view that is more in line with the BTC people and their view of most bitcoin2.0 projects.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: santaclause102 on September 10, 2014, 10:05:53 am
Quote
My questions would be, what about this music DAC makes it need to be decentralized?  Hit a chord with the kids at being anti-establishment?  Is someone trying to avoid intellectual property?  Why not just a centralized website with a db backend to keep track of shares ?
This is a good question! My thoughts are:

With a blockchain tracking the ownership of artistcoins people can exchange those coins outside the peertracks platform on exhanges and between phones.

Other devs can write applications around the open source software.

Artistcoins have value as long as the bitshares music blockchain exists no matter how long the peershares company exists.

Transparency: With a dentralized database you couldnt prove it if you had the feeling that some artistcons where stolen from your account, with a blockchain(explorer) you can.

Downsides:
User can loose his private keys and lose his shares? Might be possible to offer a service to backup private keys by peertracks optionally. You could see of peertracks company abused this on the blockchain.

Slightly more costly than running one cerntralized database. Might not be as many delegates might work for the several DACs.

Dependence on the DPOS network's security (potentially vunerable to attacks). Isnt a centralized database also vunerable to attacks .

What else?
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: cob on September 10, 2014, 05:38:21 pm
One thing to keep in mind is PeerTracks' role in bootstrapping the whole thing.

Maybe regulations will change and come down hard on this corporation, or maybe a future lawsuit, basically anything can happen... but not to BitShares Music! It's a DAC. It'll go on as long as delegates are there to do their job.

So it could be centralized. But it would be fragile and far from immortal.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: oldman on September 10, 2014, 05:44:23 pm
Quote
My questions would be, what about this music DAC makes it need to be decentralized?  Hit a chord with the kids at being anti-establishment?  Is someone trying to avoid intellectual property?  Why not just a centralized website with a db backend to keep track of shares ?
This is a good question! My thoughts are:

With a blockchain tracking the ownership of artistcoins people can exchange those coins outside the peertracks platform on exhanges and between phones.

Other devs can write applications around the open source software.

Artistcoins have value as long as the bitshares music blockchain exists no matter how long the peershares company exists.

Transparency: With a dentralized database you couldnt prove it if you had the feeling that some artistcons where stolen from your account, with a blockchain(explorer) you can.

Downsides:
User can loose his private keys and lose his shares? Might be possible to offer a service to backup private keys by peertracks optionally. You could see of peertracks company abused this on the blockchain.

Slightly more costly than running one cerntralized database. Might not be as many delegates might work for the several DACs.

Dependence on the DPOS network's security (potentially vunerable to attacks). Isnt a centralized database also vunerable to attacks .

What else?

iTunes.

That is all.
Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: tonyk on October 14, 2014, 12:32:33 am
1. Couple of posts above I said sell sell sell Bitshares Music....

I want to return on the topic.

You must be crazy to not be buying Bitshares Music at the current pre-sale. What the hell ... valuation of about $2,500,000...????

It is Nuts... sell your 2 large pizzas for 10K BTC wile you can.


2. And for the idiots selling BTSX - first Thank you! and second, unfortunately I have broken all available piggy-banks in my house, so I after today I can no longer take advantage of your stupidity, but somebody else for sure will.

0.002 BTSX

Title: Re: Market Report
Post by: xeroc on October 14, 2014, 07:39:08 am
2. And for the idiots selling BTSX - first Thank you! and second, unfortunately I have broken all available piggy-banks in my house, so I after today I can no longer take advantage of your stupidity, but somebody else for sure will.
I am having the exact same issue here  ???