Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 12:03:18 pm

I do not know all the details. It is clear there will be a big VOTE component.

I guess the question is whether VOTE will look more like BTSX + dilution.
From the last answer here -  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066 it seems people may be offered debit cards with BitUSD backed by VOTE. That sounds more like BTSX to me. (VOTE will also be able to offer greater incentives because of dilution.) But as I said we don't know all the details.

I am not an economics guy ... but from what I understand it doesn't make any difference for the bitUSD if it is backed by VOTE, DNS or BTSX .. the only difference is that the "market cap" of the bitUSD is split amongst the DACs.

It all breaks down to having different exchanges/DACs with different use-cases .. and DIFFERENT liquidity because of the use-cases.
If you are a trader and want to use bitGLD, you need to buy bitUSD via BTSX ... if you are interested in building a decentralized internet you should go to keyID ...

In the end, we will see a set of DACs which all trade the bitUSD ... with DIFFERENT spread and liquidity .. it's not that VOTE will reduce the 'value' of the BTSX DAC .. because it focuses on a completely different audience ..

In fact .. IMHO it will increase the usefulness of BTSX as people start reading about DACs and the bitUSD ...

</IMHO>

Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 11:08:56 am

You think VOTE won't add their own BitAssets if they corner BitUSD?

But what's the snapshot for then?

Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 09:09:33 am

Quote from: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:01:06 am

It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD?

The product you have donated to and the marketing strategy for it is being forked by the lead developer in a project not directly snapshotted off BTSX.

Now that's an idea, if the Vote Dac snapshotted BTSX holders a portion of the shares, that would be ok.

Quote from: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:01:06 am

It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD? 

Also there have been numerous offers by btsx holders to raise funds for btsx. If more funds would be useful then lets do a fundraiser.

All Bitshares DACs features will be usable in any other DAC with any DACs token via "atomic cross chain trading" or w/e it's called. There will not be a separate bitUSD for Vote, it will use BTSX's bitUSD. Thus if it is popular (vote) it will do marketing for BTSX as fees will be earned by BTSX by the use of bitUSD, it will provide more volume in the bitUSD market, and by buying bitUSD via vote DAC more BTSX will be tied up in the form of collateral for the bitUSD.

Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 03:10:09 am

Quote from: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 02:58:18 am

Quote from: arhag on October 18, 2014, 02:21:46 am

So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but to also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.
2) BTSX is multi-asset exchange and there will be many clones of it for many different assets... this VOTE DAC cannot support the transaction volume of all of those assets *AND* do everything else we want it to do... thus it will not be competing with BTSX as a store of wealth or exchange with derivatives. 
3) This new DAC will be funding features that will help BTSX holders... ie: my plan to fund BTSX growth without diluting BTSX.   BTSX is just swapping its tech for BitUSD for the tech funded by the other DAC and both sides win.   As a result BTSX development funds will mostly be used for "bug fixes" and "porting features" rather than developing new features.

1. Will the VOTE DAC have it's own BitUSD backed by shares of VOTE?

2. If so do you know if the BitUSD debit cards that have been mentioned will be launched and marketed using BitUSD backed by VOTE or BitUSD backed by BTSX?

1. Yes
2. Both

Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 17, 2014, 11:43:35 pm

Quote from: Rune on October 17, 2014, 11:34:50 pm

Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 17, 2014, 11:14:24 pm

Quote from: zerosum on October 17, 2014, 10:49:52 pm

Quote from: Rune on October 17, 2014, 10:43:55 pm

Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen...

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck!

But btsx is not useable. There's no mobile wallet, there's no ability to integrate it with a POS system. Shorts paying interest is not going to add any value on its own, it will only make a difference if there is a reason to either buy bitUSD or go long btsx and currently there is no such reason. There must be trade inside the system for it to create any value.

The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Oh yeah, I believe all of those things you mentioned are happening & I presume BM will be as involved as he needs to be. Again as I said in another thread, BM came up with BTSX, he knows how big it can be & he's put loads into it to make it a reality from just an idea. If he's working on something else, I'm sure he's confident he can handle both & that there are reasons for it.

Dan is incredibly smart but that doesn't mean he cannot make mistakes. In this case starting a new project is a huge mistake. Btsx doesn't even have a mobile wallet or the capability for pos integration. Every single cent of the current market cap is entirely speculative, all based on future expectations. There is not a single actual user. If those expectations fail to appear in a reasonable timeframe, the entire market cap will evaporate. If it turns out that the main person behind the entire thing now has his heart set on other things then patience will turn to panic. Btsx will die, and every other bitshares DAC will die alongside it.

Saying "I'm sure [...] there are reasons for it" literally means that you are unable to think of any reasons for it.

Quote from: Empirical1.1 on October 17, 2014, 11:14:24 pm

Quote from: zerosum on October 17, 2014, 10:49:52 pm

Quote from: Rune on October 17, 2014, 10:43:55 pm

Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen...

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck!

But btsx is not useable. There's no mobile wallet, there's no ability to integrate it with a POS system. Shorts paying interest is not going to add any value on its own, it will only make a difference if there is a reason to either buy bitUSD or go long btsx and currently there is no such reason. There must be trade inside the system for it to create any value.

The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Quote from: Rune on October 17, 2014, 10:43:55 pm

Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen...

Relavent article: http://www.coindesk.com/bitpagos-brings-bitcoin-8000-convenience-stores-ripio/

A BitPagos partnership would bring BitUSD to over 8000 convenience stores in Argentina.