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Messages - bungeebones

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1
General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 12, 2014, 12:49:47 am »
I think there is a BIG difference between open source software and an open business plan. If I were to ever divulge my business plan I would never expect those I entrusted it to to then use it against me in a bidding war with a competitor. Anyone have some wallet keys with lots of Bitcoin in it to send me? I won't tell anyone, I promise.

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General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 11, 2014, 09:57:59 pm »
So if I post my entire business plan, and allocate 20% and keep 80% someone can take my business plan (clone it) and offer a bigger stake and run with my plan?

It is open source software, you cannot stop them except through network effect, social pressure, and perhaps software licenses.

Who is the "them", the  AGS / PTS holders? If I posted with the allotments I said and then someone comes in behind with a better offer the  AGS / PTS holders will go with the higher offer?

3
General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 11, 2014, 08:54:31 pm »
So if I post my entire business plan, and allocate 20% and keep 80% someone can take my business plan (clone it) and offer a bigger stake and run with my plan?

4
General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 11, 2014, 05:02:07 pm »
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if you put in bold that you allocate 20% to their AGS/PTS

Who is "their"? Who am I allocating to? Invictus? Those that contribute services?

5
General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 11, 2014, 02:12:26 pm »
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When you create a DAC with Bitshares you have 100% of the shares to allocate to the potential users. If you promise to allocate 20% of these shares, 10% to AGS (AngelShares) and 10% to PTS (ProtoShares) you get the services listed, plus a lot of support from the community.

When does the promise have to be made? Do I wait to allocate the 20% until such time as I am ready for the services?

6
General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 10, 2014, 10:23:08 pm »
Quote
The incentive for Startups (with little traffic) is to get VClike nodes (with large amounts of traffic) to invest traffic in the startups, so that they can build up their network. In return, the VClike nodes get a share of all future traffic that these startups get. If the VClike nodes do not need more traffic, they can cash out their returns (Traffic) in Bitcoins instead.

The DAC would do several things, 1) Track the traffic of different sites. 2) price the Traffic in some unit 3) allow people to trade Traffic with bitcoin and 4) allow VClike entities to invest Traffic in startups, and allow startups to buy Traffic for a stake in their future traffic.

Is this right, or am I going off the rails here? I think you need to break down your idea further. In particular, if this is right, start by explaining how each of these points could be implemented by a DAC, or DAC in combination with a website or something else.

How do I go about starting a DAC around the idea?

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I suggest you write out your idea and business-model in a whitepaper and either present it to the community here or, if you want to keep it secret for now, send it to Invictus for review. Invictus are very much encouraging people to create their own DACs, so you're here at the right time.

Yes, I agree about the white paper but because of Bitcoin and now Invictus it seems like I have a lot more tools available for me to utilize. I've been involved with Bitcoin for over a year and have some background with that but am totally new with Bitshares and want/need to explore it's possibilities and applications in the idea. I have no problem putting the idea out to the community so, if it is all right,  I'll test the waters of what could be on a white paper here in the forums. One particular issue as the current business model is centralised and I want to use DACs to decentralise as much of it as I can.

Since this is a post about venture capital I'll keep the perspective on the idea of web traffic as capital.

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The incentive for Startups (with little traffic) is to get VClike nodes (with large amounts of traffic) to invest traffic in the startups, so that they can build up their network.
The incentive for Startups (with little traffic) would be mostly to get to use the web traffic of the network themselves but they can still use their little bit of traffic they get to market the traffic of the network, too, for income. In addition to their network traffic as a sales tool they also have their customer base and all the other social networks they are involved in. Any one of their acquaintences is a prospective customer and downline. In other words, they don't have web traffic capital but can still invest the little they have and can also invest their "sweat equity" and market the traffic of the larger sites.

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so that they can build up their network.
When the network is built up every node (high traffic, low traffic etc) benefit because by cooperating they are actually creating a product that didn't previously exist (at least not in such a marketable form). So by "their network" I would say yes, everybody's network. A start up site usually has a long row to hoe before their web site ever has enough traffic to make it worthwhile to market it themselves. Some sites (such as small businesses like barber shops, bakeries, mechanics etc) will never get enough traffic to bother marketing it. This simple script on their site (which I would anticipate web designers will want to install for them) is a free, no maintenance way to capture that capital (i.e. web traffic) that would otherwise just be going to waste. And someone like a barber, who is meeting people all day long, has a perfect opportunity to find other website owners who are probably looking for more traffic to their site.

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the VClike nodes get a share of all future traffic that these startups get.
Every site (hi or low traffic) are VC so what we want to look at is how they will get a return on their investment. One way is direct sales of the networks web traffic. It would stand to reason that sites with more traffic would be able to sell more traffic and earn more Bitcoin. The second way they earn Bitcoin arises because every site that registers to advertise is also a very likely prospect to recruit to become a node themselves. That prospect is what made me decide to make the commission policy multi-level. So web sites with more traffic will likely recruit more websites and earn more residual income on their downline than the smaller sites would. And both those income streams are long term meaning they continue to earn return each time a buyer pays for advertising.

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In return, the VClike nodes get a share of all future traffic that these startups get. If the VClike nodes do not need more traffic, they can cash out their returns (Traffic) in Bitcoins instead.
In return, the VC like nodes get a share of the earnings of the startups nodes advertising sales and everyone in the network gets a share of the web traffic they contribute. In theory a visitor could go to your website, visit the web directory there and happen to pick one of your downlines and go there and register. Inversely, a visitor could go to their site and follow the directory to your site and register there. You would still get long term earnings either way but if the downline actually made the sale they would get a larger share. Web traffic cannot be stored, it can only be diverted or more precisely coaxed into a direction to follow. So the idea is to convert that web traffic into purchased advertising (i.e. Bitcoin) and get it credited and to the earners as quickly as possible.
 

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One of the main purposes of Invictus, although it's not entirely clear yet, is to help people create their own DACs. If you join in on honoring AGS/PTS you can get:

•A stipend to work in one of our incubators for a period of time.
•The legal fees to set up your company in its chosen favorable jurisdiction.
•Fully equipped office space at one of our incubator sites.
•Forum and web site support while you build you own base of supporters.
•Crypto-savvy legal, accounting, financial and tax support.
•Use of our trusted escrow services while you are building your own reputation.
•Consulting with Dan “bytemaster” Larimer and our team of innovators.
•Help with finding opportunities to speak at a major conference.
•Promotional support integrated with our own global marketing campaign

See the Invictus February newsletter page 8-10 for more information.

All of the above is sorely needed by me but what do you mean by "If you join in on honoring AGS/PTS you can get: ..."?

I really appreciate all your help.

7
General Discussion / Where can I find the "shell DAC"?
« on: February 10, 2014, 06:14:37 pm »
Bytemaster posted
"7) If you eliminate mining, then the cost of launching a new DAC is near 0 and you can simply use C++ to encode your contracts starting from a 'shell DAC' and launch without having to overload everyone not interested in your contract. "

Where can I find the "shell DAC"?

8
General Discussion / Re: VC DAC
« on: February 10, 2014, 02:49:12 pm »
I've got an idea (and a website already functioning) where the venture capital is web traffic. The options for a website to monetize their web traffic today are somewhat limited and those that exist are designed to convert the web traffic into currency (stress on currently realized income). The idea is to invest your site's web traffic for both long term returns as well as into short term currency  and to encourage others to invest their web traffic into the DAC also. As each website joins and adds traffic each site also functions as a sales kiosk/shopping cart to market the aggregate web traffic. Every web site they market the web traffic to is, of course, also a prime candidate to invest their own web traffic in the DAC.

The return on investment for this web traffic DAC would be in the form(s) of web traffic for the investor's site and/or in Bitcoin (their choice). Some may want to invest their own web traffic in the DAC in order to receive an even greater amount back. This is nothing more than the time tested method of Internet traffic building known as a link exchange. But because payment can be received as Bitcoin it provides an incentive for high traffic producing sites to remain despite the fact they contribute much higher amounts than other sites in the exchange. In other words, it is a link exchange with the additional feature of a built in price discovery mechanism and market.

How do I go about starting a DAC around the idea?

9
BitShares PTS / Re: Where to start?
« on: February 10, 2014, 01:52:36 pm »
In the case of "Link Monitoring and removal " for example, could I leave that functionality out of a DAC and add it in later? I also came up with another question - can a DAC be inside of another DAC like corporations can have subsidiaries?
Thanks

10
BitShares PTS / Re: Where to start?
« on: February 10, 2014, 03:11:32 am »
Awesome toast! Thanks. Before I go through them each again and refine the approach can a DAC still be used if some centralised functions aren't in the DAC ? I would assume yes, since it can act like it's own entity and can contract. If so, I could grab the most important functionality to decentralise and the "low hanging fruit" first, put them in the DAC, and leave any remaining functions outside the DAC. If the outside functions were non-critical and could be contracted from more than the current provider then there would always be a plan B and motivation for the provider to do the job correctly.

11
BitShares PTS / Re: Where to start?
« on: February 10, 2014, 02:15:33 am »
"I would remove all centralizing aspects from your system."

Here is the list of the main parts/functions of the directory and the ease/difficulty I see in decentralising them.
Advertiser Registration - currently centralised - provided by typical registration/login like for the forum. It's basic function is authentication. I believe this could be given out with a coin, and/or a wallet address?
Advertiser Link Insertion - currently centralised - a form accessed after authentication where they 1) select their category and 2) enter url, title, description, location perhaps. Is this the area that your idea above in a previous post was addressing? Decentralising of the category list could be fairly easy I think and constructive for foreign languages. Basically new categories would be submitted like a transaction is and after a certain number of confirmations the category goes live. Might need a blockchain for links and another for categories?
Link Approval - currently performed by me or occasional part-time help. Seems one of the hardest to decentralised. The benefit of centralised human review is efficiency and cost savings. Otherwise, each location is redundantly doing the same tasks that I could do for everyone. Could be solved by placing a bounty on the discovery, reporting of links not meeting terms of service and paid out after a certain number of confirmations by other sites.
Conversion to Paid -  Currently achieved by a script from their User Control Panel (centralized) Sites initially sign up for free (the default) and to get better placement  they preload their account with at least a days worth of Bitcoin and can then buy better placement. The payment goes to a cold storage address and their online account is credited. That night a cron (centralized) runs that distributes the commission NOMINALLY to the selling site as well as its upline. To decentralise this need some automated way to retrieve funds directly from the buyer in a manner like a pre-authorized subscription credit card payment. Is such a thing possible using the block chain?
Conversion of site to be an Advertiser/Monetizer - currently performed by installing two blocks of PHP code into their own web page template to create a web directory and by doing a few configurations at the server. This could be replaced with a blockchain that lists all the currently valid links and their respective categories. As new sites get added they are added to the blockchain, as the are found to be dead or the owners withdraw they are removed. That list would have to also contain their payment status and the amount and the date/time of their registration (for ordering in the display page). This new proposal means basically using a block chain as a database. I've never done that, don't know if it can be done.
Payment Processing - currently using Bitcoinmonitor.net to scan the blockchain for the offline wallet address transactions. It sends a report to my server (centralized) that then credits their account. Once their balance is adjusted it shows in their Control Panel and they can purchase better placement. Fairly easy to decentralise. The script could be sent to each node so that any node could watch their own wallet address and credit the user's account.
Commission Processing - centralised, performed daily. Script reads purchases made and distributes each member up the upline's percentage of the total payment. It follows an algorithm where the selling site gets 50% of the fee. From then on the algorithm uses the remainder as a running balance and pays the upline half of the remainder until it reaches the top level which gets the entire remainder. Since the seller always gets 50% the uplines get smaller and smaller commissions the deeper it goes. I mentioned in previous posts I think multisig wallets could be used at any of the downline sites that would let them receive payments and do the disbursement, or, they could run a daily cron which takes all payments they received and distribute them to their line. I see a problem with refunds though. If someone deposits 20 days worth of advertising fees in their account and quits before using it all I can reimburse them. If the fee for the 20 days was distributed immediately it would be difficult to recover it from all the other wallets.
Link Monitoring and removal Sites come in and sites leave regularly. Dead links need to be removed. This is currently a chore of the admin. Could be solved by placing a bounty on the discovery, reporting of dead links paid out after a certain number of confirmations by other sites.

So as you can see, I think it would be a handful to decentralise all of it and I'm not even sure if it can be done. Is there a way a DAC can contract out parts of its less critical functions to centralised entities? If the remainders can ever be decentralised then the contracts can be left to expire.

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BitShares PTS / Re: Where to start?
« on: February 10, 2014, 01:05:24 am »
Thanks.

So how/where do I go to start setting up a DAC? Or is it too early for that. What I mean is how flexible is a DAT? Do I have to have all the "t"s crossed and the "i"s dotted before or do I do that after starting a DAC?

Also, I already have the pricing mechanism and the multi-level commission disbursement set up. It is, again, centralised but your ideas may be just what I need to get them easily switched to a blockchain. That would be great.

The pricing mechanism is by nonchalant style of competitive bidding that, on one hand, gets the highest price for the webmasters selling the traffic but also doesn't make the bidding so cut throat that you have to babysit the thing to maintain your position.

The commission disbursement is daily but credits an Internal ledger (needs to be decentralised). I currently state a policy that the Bitcoin can be withdrawn when greater than $25 worth but can be used immediately to purchase better link position.

I am thinking I may be able to use a multi-sig wallet to disburse commissions into. With that I would enable every site in the network to receive the Bitcoin payment and make the disbursement to the rest of the wallet owners (i.e. their upline and/or downline).

13
BitShares PTS / Where to start?
« on: February 09, 2014, 11:16:12 pm »
This is my first post here. I've been involved with Bitcoin for over a year, have watched tons of videos, listened to tons of shows and read pages upon pages of information. I converted my advertising site completely over to a Bitcoin only system so that all payments in and all commissions out are entirely in Bitcoin. I liken it to mining with Bitcoin with the traffic from your web site instead of electricty. It doesn't create Bitcoin of course. It uses a php web directory script you install in a webpage to aggregate your web traffic with the network while, at the same time, sets you up with a shopping cart to sell traffic for the entire network.

Anyway, I have a number of goals for the project that Bitshares seems like it could enable. For example, each website that installs the web directory script on their site and, thus contributes traffic to this new advertising network are, in my mind, venture capitalists by investing their web traffic without any guarantee of a return.  I would like some way to give these investors a permanent stock type ownership stake in the project's success. For example, I structured this as a multi-level commission system so there is a potential that even a small or new website could register a very productive site under them which develops a large downline. But if in the course of time they decide to discontinue their site I have coded it that they can and their commission earnings from their downline continues perpetually. Since that is coded in it would be great to put that asset into a blockchain and then it could become transferable and inheritable.

Also, as it is built now it is too centralized and I could use help figuring out how to de-centralise it. The script currently works by enabling every installation site to download all the web directory's categories and links from my central server. They also have an "Add A Link" button which generates a unique registration form for their users to add a link in all the directories with their one submission. They can choose free or paid advertising but if/when they pay the registering site gets half of the Bitcoin based advertising fee. This is just a start and altogether there are 8 modules or functions that I would like to decentralise. Most are data related such as retrieving data or submitting dat to the server. Some of those may be able to be moved onto a block chain. And then there is the commission disbursement which could be handled by a multi-sig arrangement.

With all that what is the real purpose of this? Well I can't stand the monopoly Google has on search engine results pages. They display 60 something percent of the total and there are two or three more that do the rest. In my mind, why be concerned about Central Banking when you have centralised information distribution! This idea is to decentralise links, make it so that small websites can participate as much in the distribution as any other and even provide a way that charities can use this to basically earn support out of "found money".

So, where do I start trying to fit part or all of my idea into Bitshares?

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