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Messages - CoinHoarder

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121
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: February 01, 2016, 07:32:49 pm »
@CoinHoarder the way that you create the bitasset can be forced Settlement?

Yes, other than the issue abit is bringing up, I think force settlement is the only other issue. The issue with that is the demand for forced settlement will increase, based on a statistical assumption. This will force other shorts, that will certainly have less collateral, to be force settled.

I have not come up with a solution to this, other than possibly not allowing Smartcoins to be force settled (which is another can of worms.) I was poking around last night and I noticed that committee-issued SmartCoins currently cannot be force settled. Is that truly the case, or is it a glitch in the GUI? Someone told me the other week that forced settlements were enabled...

122
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: February 01, 2016, 07:18:11 pm »
IMHO there are flaws. Market making is NOT a 100% safe business, it will definitely loss in a trend, so the system itself should never dilute to operate such service.

Meh. You are arguing that once there is a sufficient amount of liquidity on the books, that there will be sufficient incentive for people to manipulate the market to their advantage. You are effectively saying that the DEX is broken, as once a sufficient to amount of liquidity exists that it will be manipulated and profited off of from bad actors. What your are saying is a possibility whether my proposal is enacted or not. It is possible as long as there is enough incentive on the orderbooks, which can occur naturally. How do you know this isn't already taking place as is?

I get what you are saying, but while bringing up a good reason the proposal should not be implemented, you are also stating the DEX is broken and unfixable. As soon as there is enough liquidity (incentive) then bad actors will manipulate the market for easy profits. This seems more like a flaw with Smart coins than with the proposal as it could easily happen without it.

123
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: February 01, 2016, 03:09:23 am »
If the system dilutes unlimited BTS for market making, what will happen when a whale or a group of whales manipulates the price of BTS?
* buy the BTAs which are borrowed via dilution, dump BTS to external exchange, settle
* borrow BTA, and sell to the system, pump BTS on external exchanges, buy BTA back from system

The autonomous liquidity operations would not ever buy SmartCoins. It only shorts them, and then places them on the sell side of the market above the price feed. I don't understand what you mean by "sell to the system" since the "system" is never buying any coins.

If this works how I think it works, couldn't someone do this type of an exploit as Bitshares exists today?

124
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: February 01, 2016, 02:45:37 am »
Downsides relate to the amount of collateral.  If you go high collateral you risk pushing everyone else out of shorting due to the increased demand for settling.  If you go low collateral you risk dilution.

Good point, thank you! I am finally getting some valid criticisms (more than negative blanket statements.)

I will have to think about this one, because I didn't consider that creating more SmartCoins from printed BTS would increase the demand for settling. I think you are right, statistically, you have to assume that it will increase the demand for settling. Profits from liquidity operations and/or the fee pool could at least partially fund that increase, but there is a possibility of having a "run on the bank" ... if a lot of people force settled at the same time.

You are correct about going to low. Too little collateral is bad, as the likelihood of a margin call goes up, and in turn if that occurs then real (negative) dilution happens. That is why I suggested an "astronomically" large amount of collateral.

125
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: February 01, 2016, 02:28:48 am »
@CoinHoarder

interesting concept.

we should discuss it.

if you look from a different angle this is so far from dilution we should rename it.
I agree, dilution as I've been using it in regards to this proposal, is quite different from other dilution. Perhaps I have been wording it incorrectly in my previous posts, because you are the first to agree with me on this point (or at least voice their agreement.)

what we would doing is to give every user the possibility to go into a bitasset instantly without a counterparty, because bitshares is the counterparty.
This is a good way to describe it.

The blockchain would only "lose" if the price will fall much lower then now, at this point if everyone is settling the bitasset, the network will loose or would be diluting the share supply.
I agree the network would lose if the price falls and the SmartCoins become under collateralized. However, I disagree with the latter (bolded) part. These people paid, above the feed price, for the SmartCoin. Is it really dilution? In my opinion the risks of holding SmartCoins should be weighted more towards BTS shareholders than SmartCoin owners.

on point more. if the bitshares price is rising we would have the chance to decrease the bitshares supply, because if the network can buy his short position back, we would decrease the total supply.
Good point... I did not think about that.

126
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: February 01, 2016, 02:17:12 am »
When you say print bts, do you mean take from the reserve pool?
No, I mean print BTS as in... out of thin air like Bitshares does for worker/delegate dilution.

Have you though about what happens with force liquidations?
See 3B and 4 under Myths

127
General Discussion / Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« on: February 01, 2016, 01:35:40 am »
Alright, school work done! I decided that I don't have the time or will to enact this evil plan. Also, someone can kill the "lucrative" part of it, so here goes nothing...

How to Monopolize the Referral Business:
Bob wants to monopolize the referral business because he likes making money. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives X% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Bob makes it known that if anyone competes with him, he will burn the referral business to the ground by coming over the top of whatever percentage of rakeback they offer until 100%. There is then no incentive to compete with Bob using the same business model, because if you do he will come over the top of your offer- all the way to a 100% rakeback offering. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Bob as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. Monopolizing the referral business would not work if someone was motivated enough to kill the referral business outright (see below.)
If this works lets let Bitcrab implement this so that his customerers/clients have lower fees/expenses and lets see how it goes.
I know this would work but it would be centralized. You could create a more decentralized version with account permissions and multiple parties, but that makes it a lot more complicated to implement. The person that offers the highest rakeback will be the referrer that people want to sign up with. China could setup one with a very high percentage (or 100%) which would effectively nullifying the referral program.

How to Kill Referral Businesses:
Charlie wants the referral business to die because he thinks the inflated fees are bad for the future of Bitshares. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives 100% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Charlie as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. No one can compete with 100% rakeback, and all referral businesses that rely on the referral program for profit would die off.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)#Rakeback
I assume that I
Ok, what will happen if I spam/create 15.342.736.643 accounts with Charlie as referral?

Good point- that's something I hadn't thought of but I don't think it would make my plan not work. I suppose I would implement SMS verification, email verification, or social verification to make it very complicated and expensive (cell phone #s) to register many accounts with the intention of sabotage. Yet, to be realistic it should remain easy enough for people to sign up for accounts. So, all types of verification checks would probably not be used.

Edit: You could also charge whatever it cost in BTS to register an account. I think that people would gladly pay the (currently 19 BTS) registration fee considering they will save the much in fees in no time (6 BTS per transaction for instance.) This would effectively make it impossible to abuse (at least in this way.)

128
General Discussion / Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« on: January 31, 2016, 11:56:37 pm »
Oops, I posted this on the wrong thread. Following up on my previous posts ITT:

Alright, school work done! I decided that I don't have the time or will to enact this evil plan. Also, someone can kill the "lucrative" part of it, so here goes nothing...

How to Monopolize the Referral Business:
Bob wants to monopolize the referral business because he likes making money. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives X% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Bob makes it known that if anyone competes with him, he will burn the referral business to the ground by coming over the top of whatever percentage of rakeback they offer until 100%. There is then no incentive to compete with Bob using the same business model, because if you do he will come over the top of your offer- all the way to a 100% rakeback offering. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Bob as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. Monopolizing the referral business would not work if someone was motivated enough to kill the referral business outright (see below.)

How to Kill Referral Businesses:
Charlie wants the referral business to die because he thinks the inflated fees are bad for the future of Bitshares. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives 100% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Charlie as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. No one can compete with 100% rakeback, and all referral businesses that rely on the referral program for profit would die off.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)#Rakeback

129
Alright, school work done! I decided that I don't have the time or will to enact this evil plan. Also, someone can kill the "lucrative" part of it, so here goes nothing...

How to Monopolize the Referral Business:
Bob wants to monopolize the referral business because he likes making money. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives X% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Bob makes it known that if anyone competes with him, he will burn the referral business to the ground by coming over the top of whatever percentage of rakeback they offer until 100%. There is then no incentive to compete with Bob using the same business model, because if you do he will come over the top of your offer- all the way to a 100% rakeback offering. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Bob as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. Monopolizing the referral business would not work if someone was motivated enough to kill the referral business outright (see below.)

How to Kill Referral Businesses:
Charlie wants the referral business to die because he thinks the inflated fees are bad for the future of Bitshares. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives 100% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Charlie as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. No one can compete with 100% rakeback, and all referral businesses that rely on the referral program for profit would die off.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)#Rakeback

130
General Discussion / Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« on: January 31, 2016, 07:33:21 pm »
The referral program is broken for reasons that no one has ever brought up on these forums (or at least I haven't seen it brought up.) Do not make important decisions based on it.
I had an epiphany today regarding it. I do not have time to explain now as I have school work that is due by 12am. Also, it is a lucrative business plan so I'm not sure if I want to explain it publicly without taking a stab at being the "first mover" on the said business plan.

That doesn't really help. You say it's broken but then you say you can't disclose. You have every right to do so but that doesn't prove anything. For anyone else you're arguing it's broken just "because".

Feel free to ignore me... the business plan would be more lucrative if fees stay as-is (high) and the referral program remain unchanged.  :P

131
General Discussion / Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« on: January 31, 2016, 07:28:52 pm »
The referral program is broken for reasons that no one has ever brought up on these forums (or at least I haven't seen it brought up.) Do not make important decisions based on it.
I had an epiphany today regarding it. I do not have time to explain now as I have school work that is due by 12am. Also, it is a lucrative business plan (hinging on Bitshares' success) so I'm not sure if I want to explain it publicly without taking a stab at being the "first mover" on the said business plan.

132
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: January 31, 2016, 07:03:59 pm »
Here is my proposal fully explained. The PDF version is much easier to follow and read. It is available here: http://docdro.id/2OcoImM

Quote
Autonomous SmartCoin Liquidity Funded by Dilution

How It Works:
1.   Bitshares autonomously prints BTS specifically for the purpose of funding liquidity operations.
2.   Bitshares shorts every committee-issued SmartCoin, and puts them up for sale at an arbitrary percentage over the price feed.
3.   The percentage the SmartCoins are sold over the price feed, the amount of liquidity provided for each SmartCoin market and the amount of collateral should be determined by the committee (and thus can be adjusted whenever the community deems it is necessary.)
4.   Proceeds from the sales can be burned, or they can be used to resupply the liquidity pools for each SmartCoin… it does not matter.
5.   If the liquidity pool for any certain SmartCoin is running low, Bitshares can autonomously print more BTS and short the SmartCoin, so that the amount of liquidity provided (which is again set by the committee) is maintained.
        a.   Note: This step would only be necessary if the committee adds more SmartCoins (such as bitAPPLE, bitGOOGLE, etc.) to the DEX. (see How It Works #7)
6.   Instant liquidity is observed across all SmartCoin markets, effectively bootstrapping DEX liquidity and fixing one of Bitshares’ most glaring problems.
7.   Considering the autonomous liquidity is provided at an arbitrary amount above the peg, Bitshares will make a profit each time these liquidity operations are utilized. Thus, the amount of funds available for these liquidity operations will grow in time without the need for any dilution. This profit can be used to provide more liquidity, or it can be burned.
8.   As “natural liquidity” (liquidity provided by actual users) grows, the committee can lower the amount of liquidity provided autonomously. Effectively, this proposal works as training wheels on a bicycle. As soon as the DEX has sufficient “natural liquidity”, all autonomous liquidity operations can cease and the BTS/SmartCoins that were printed can be burned.
       a.   Autonomous liquidity operations can be ceased on a market-by-market basis, as inherently some markets will be dynamically more liquid than others.

Pros:

1.   Liquidity for SmartCoins traded on the DEX, which is arguably the biggest issue that Bitshares faces, would instantly be available as soon as this proposal is programed and implemented.
       a.   Liquidity is one of the things that Bitshares’ competitors (FIAT-pegged cryptocurrencies) do better. Nubits, Tether, etc. have a ludicrously larger amount of liquidity than our bitFIAT SmartCoins. This proposal levels the playing field in regards to liquidity.
i.   Furthermore, the autonomous liquidity operations as I propose them would work on all SmartCoin markets so we would have a competitive advantage of many different liquid assets (bitOIL, bitAPPLE, bitNASDAQ, etc.)
       b.   There are other projects that are (or have) implemented a decentralized exchange (B&C Exchange, Elephant, InstantDEX, Lykke, etc.) As evidenced by centralized exchanges’ volumes, users largely tend to trade on the exchanges that have the greatest volume and liquidity. This proposal would cement Bitshares’ stranglehold on the DEX market as users would flock to the DEX with the most liquidity.
       c.   Many Bitshares’ users would like to user other more obscure SmartCoins like bitOIL, bitNASDAQ, etc. However, the DEX having low liquidity makes these SmartCoins a non-starter.
              i.   I personally want to use our exchange for many different assets but am not willing to pay the huge premium for things like gold, silver, etc... I really want to purchase other commodities such as oil, stocks, and stock indexes but I can't. I know I am not alone because there have been many threads stating the same thing.
2.   Autonomous liquidity operations are a means to an end. As soon as enough “natural liquidity” is present on the DEX, autonomous liquidity operations can cease and the BTS/SmartCoins burned. This proposal is simply intended to jump start volume and liquidity on the DEX. Eventually, the DEX will be able to stand on its own two feet with “natural liquidity” and autonomous liquidity operations can cease.
       a.   See How It Works #8
3.   Bitshares' position as far as market capitalization web sites (like coinmarketcap.com) is bolstered, so as to make sure it stays in the spotlight for at least the immediate to near future.
4.   Nubits’ liquidity operations take a lot of cooperation in between a lot of different parties. It takes a small army of people to hold the Nubits market peg. Bitshares has a superior advantage in these regards considering the DEX is located on-chain. Thus, Bitshares’ liquidity operations can be made to be almost purely autonomous which will require a much smaller amount of “man power” when it comes to providing liquidity, monitoring liquidity, etc.

Cons:
1.   The community will need to be educated that all dilution is not created equally, and that dilution for autonomous liquidity operations is not equal to dilution to pay individuals for certain services (developing, advertising, etc.)
       a.   The former has no effect on the “effective supply” of BTS because it never makes its way to a sell order on the BTS off ramp markets (BTS/USD, BTS/BTC, Etc.) Thus, the former has no effect on the value of BTS.
       b.   The latter always (at least eventually) has negative effect on the value of BTS, because it always makes its way to a sell order on the BTS off ramps. Whether the individual needs to cover expenses, diversify their pay, or anything else… this kind of dilution can and will make its way to a sell order on the BTS off ramp markets.
       c.   See Myths #1

Myths:
1.   Dilution will lower the value of BTS.
       a.   I understand the word dilution has a very negative connotation. People hear the word dilution and automatically think "that's bad", but I don't think that is always necessarily the case. All dilution is not created equally. The dilution for this feature would not lower the value of the BTS token, as it does not affect the demand. The supply on "paper" increases, but that supply never makes its way into the market. So, no downward pressure is ever applied onto the market from the BTS printed.
                i.   Dilution for the purpose of autonomous liquidity operations will not affect Bitshares’ value, because it never makes its way into the “BTS off ramp markets” (BTS/BTC, BTS/USD, etc... any asset that isn't a smart contract on Bitshares). The dilution is always autonomously shorted to create SmartCoins purely for the use of providing liquidity. Thus, there is never any downward pressure on the market. In supply and demand, the supply only affects demand if it makes its way to the “BTS off ramp markets".
               ii.   Alternatively, Dilution for developer (or any other type of worker) pay can and will exert negative value force on the “BTS off ramp markets”. Developers need to pay expenses, diversify their holdings, and sell for many other reasons. They should be able to do this freely, because if they can’t then there is no reason for anyone to work for Bitshares’ (if there are extreme limitations attached.) I agree this kind of dilution can (and/or will) negatively affects Bitshares’ value since it almost certainly eventually enters “BTS off ramp markets”.
2.   Smartcoins will no longer work on free market dynamics.
       a.   A limit should be hardcoded into the Bitshares protocol as to how close to the peg the autonomous liquidity operations can sell at. As long as a sufficient percentage is hardcoded into the protocol, then it will leave enough room for shorts or market makers to come along and “naturally” tighten the peg more so.
       b.   This is why I suggest starting with a wide 5% to 10% peg. This leaves a lot of wiggle room for shorts and market makers to profit. The amount can be adjusted as needed. So, it can start at a 5% peg until the “natural liquidity” reaches a certain point, then it can be relaxed to 6%, then 7%, etc. As the market matures the percentage can increase and the "training wheels" taken off. Eventually, the autonomous liquidity operations will cease altogether once there is a sufficient amount of “natural liquidity”.
               i.   See How It Works #3 and #8 as to how the peg can be adjusted and the definition of “natural liquidity”.
3.   This seems very risky.
       a.   Everything is done autonomously on a publicly auditable blockchain, so all operations could be monitored by shareholders.
       b.   I don't see it as risky considering we are printing BTS, and we can put as much collateral down as we like. Hell, we could do 100x collateral. The price would have to fall to 1% of what it is now for a margin call. At that time the market cap would be approximately $90,391.89, or with 1000x collateral the price would have to be 0.1% of what it is now for a margin call. At that time the market cap would be approximately $9039.19 ... Wouldn't you consider Bitshares to already be in dire straits and on its death bed by that point? If it is in the latter position, then I think it is quite likely that the SmartCoins are no longer backed by a sufficient amount of BTS, and Bitshares could get into this position without ever passing this proposal. This is an inherent risk with SmartCoins (with or without my proposal.)
4.   What if the funds get margin called?
       a.   Considering we are shorting with printed BTS, we can short with a very high percentage of collateral. Thus, it is unlikely a margin call ever occurs. If one does occur after setting an astronomical amount of collateral, then the BTS value is in the “gutter of the gutter” already and Bitshares is already in dire straits (or likely dead.)

I also forgot to add a rather obvious pro to the "pros and cons"... demand for the BTS token would increase due to the added utility (more SmartCoins would be able to trade.. bitOIL, bitNASDAQ, etc.) and there would be much better liquidity on the DEX.

133
General Discussion / Re: Nubits revisited
« on: January 31, 2016, 06:57:57 pm »
It still shows that people need to provide the buy orders while in bitshares the protocol can deal with settlement (as a last resort)
I can admit that is true. However, so far Nushares has been able to provide sufficient incentive for people to have those buy and sell orders in place to hold the peg. It is unclear whether or not incentive can be maintained for a prolonged period of time (although it has worked quite well for over a year).

In my design I am proposing for Bitshares, it does away with the small army of people it takes to provide liquidity. It is almost purely autonomous, meanwhile Nubits' liquidity operations require a lot of "man power". My design would never succumb to the issue that post refers to since it is done autonomously.

Furthermore, my design is not meant to be a permanent solution like Nubits' solution is... it works like training wheels do on a bicycle. As soon as "natural liquidity" is established on the DEX, the autonomous liquidity operations cease and the BTS/SmartCoins that were used to provide it are burned.

I am about to post a more detailed synopsis that I have been working on all morning.

EDIT: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21197.msg276084.html#msg276084
or https://www.docdroid.net/2OcoImM/autonomous-smartcoin-liquidity-funded-by-dilution.pdf.html

134
General Discussion / Re: Nubits revisited
« on: January 31, 2016, 03:57:40 pm »
FYI:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NuBits/comments/42wj58/urgent_according_to_alix_the_alp_sell_side_at/

I guess you didn't take the time to read the link you posted... in particular the part where it explained that it was not a big deal?

Quote
If you had looked at the liquidity broadcast of the NuBots (which I just now did), you had found out, that the situation isn't dire.

135
General Discussion / Re: Radical ideas for liquidity
« on: January 30, 2016, 06:44:32 pm »
It's gold in hand instead of a paper promising gold.. how is that risk prone?
It is not gold in hand. It is a derivative backed by different methods than SmartCoins. It is backed by wallets in control of the exchanges and is still subject to risks- just different risks than SmartCoins. I am not convinced yet that the pros outweigh the cons. I am not sure what would happen in all these scenarios...

What if one exchange gets hacked (if the BTC is stored in their own separate wallets)? Or, several of them are hacked and all funds are compromised (if the BTC stored is in a multi-signature address controlled by exchanges)? What if the exchanges don't agree on who/what/where/when about BTC deposits/withdrawals? I suppose everyone would monitor the BTC chain as well as a notary, and have a way to overrule a suddenly malicious (hacked) exchange? What if the two smaller exchanges blackmail the one large exchange and steal its funds?

My bad.. I learned today that sidechaining BTC is possible and this  is what I was actually referring to.. autobridging as ripple does it is cute compared to what I am actually talking about.

We are just talking about two different things here.

I am confused now haha. I am not even certain all my criticisms of that proposal are valid after giving it more though.. I made some assumptions as to how it would be setup/organized and if (or not) it would use multisignature addresses. I think it should be discussed more, and I think it is possibly a good solution if it can be made to work and doesn't cause any issues.

However, I still would not consider this as a "sure thing" as far as fixing our liquidity problems. To be honest, the only proposal I see as being a "sure thing" to fix liquidity is mine so far. I am of course biased, but no one has been able to explain why it would not work (other than make blanket statements such as "it is a horrible idea" etc... which is not helpful at all.)

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