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Messages - starspirit

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76
Somebody needs to bear the burden of the amount of shortfall of the under-collateralised (<100% debt coverage) shorts. Its fine for the longs to bear this, but they should not have to bear any more than this amount. My issue with the proposed approach is that most of the other shorts may well still have enough collateral to cover their full debt, but they are getting a windfall gain because there were one or more shorts who triggered a black swan. This windfall gain of course, comes at the expense of the longs. It may even be the case that the under-collateralised short is very very small, but triggers a very large and unnecessary cross transfer between the longs and shorts.

Oh this is a good point. I would like clarification on this as well.

I am afraid that the code might be currently set up to settle all margin positions at the swan price defined as the ratio between the collateral and debt of the least collateralized margin position at the moment of black swan. But what it should do (as you already mentioned starspirit, but let me be a little more explicit in the description) is settle all margin positions with sufficient collateral at the feed price (taking the collateral paid for the settlement and putting it into the settlement pool, and the remaining collateral for each of these margin positions goes to their respective owners), and then for all other margin positions that do not have sufficient collateral it should just move all of their collateral into the settlement pool and consider their debt paid off. The ratio of the total debt owed of all margin positions when the black swan occurred to the total collateral added into the settlement pool is the new immutable settlement price that is then used for when longs redeem their fraction of the collateral from the settlement pool at their leisure.

(bump) just checking the dev team have noted this (?)

I was also just wondering whether black swans always need to result in a liquidation event. There may be a way to let the token trade on in a fair manner, and still give the under-collaterisation time to resolve itself (i.e. if the collateral recovered in value). Maybe there might be some flexibility in how privatised Smartcoins choose to deal with black swans.

My understanding is the main reason for the liquidation event is so that all longs get equal treatment. In the absence of such an event, if margin calls or settlements continued to occur at the feed price, the longs first in the queue to sell would get favoured treatment over the slower-to-move longs, as can often happen in a bank run.

But what if under-collateralised or black-swan status does not result in liquidation, but a price limit on all margin calls and settlements set in the same way as the liquidation value would have been set (this could be a public NAV figure alongside the feed price)? In this way, nobody gets more than their fair share, and there is a prospect of collateral recovery, especially if the collateral were experiencing a transient flash crash. While its true that a number of the margin calls will not be filled at the lower price, this does not leave longs any more exposed to further downside in the collateral than they would have been had the liquidation event been initiated. In fact, it could well be less, because some of the shorts may still be over-collateralised, providing some additional buffer against further downside (in contrast, these would be immediately closed out in the liquidation event).

It may be that the market is still a zombie if under-collateralisation persisted, resulting in no new supply, or is forever tainted by the event even if a recovery occurs, in which case closure can still be initiated through a global settlement, but that can be decided separately and after the event.

Its just a quick thought - not sure yet if I've missed something else that might be an obstacle.

77
BTS decline 94% from peak to trough, between Sept 2014 and April 2015. 

Despite that decline, holders of bitAssets were still able to get the correct value back out of the system.  (Give or take a couple percent, and transaction fees).  In fact, They could even sell at times near the bottom for a 5-10% premium.

A deep bear market is a good test, but is not the nightmare scenario. The nightmare scenario is a price gap or discontinuity, such as when BTC collapsed from the $500-600 region to the $100 region in a matter of hours in February 2014, due to forced unwinding and insufficient market depth to meet the selling. Such flash crashes do happen from time to time in other markets too. These are rare (yet not inconceivable) events.

78
General Discussion / Re: Dan is doing the right thing .. again!
« on: July 01, 2015, 11:54:52 pm »
Curious, what would be the tax treatment in US for an amount of BTS not paid directly, but only payable at a vesting date, subject to certain conditions (like market cap growth), as I described earlier in this thread? (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17292.msg220350.html#msg220350)

79
Smartcoins will be able to use collateral assets other than BTS, including user-issued assets (UIAs). However, as its hard to see what confidence might be placed (initially) in UIAs as collateral, in effect collateral will still be BTS or another token (e.g. bitUSD) that uses BTS as collateral. BTS would still be the necessary foundation collateral for the hierarchy of assets, and thus all Smartcoins would share this vulnerability to different extents.

I think the only way around this is to have alternative assets represented on the bitShares block-chain, that could serve the function of collateral, and perhaps allow diversification across these. I personally think this is a direction we must go. Open up the platform for the universal trading of any digital or digitisable asset. We need the right tech to get there though.

80
General Discussion / Re: Dan is doing the right thing .. again!
« on: July 01, 2015, 10:15:27 pm »
Individual circumstances are irrelevant - only what all parties have to offer.
Nobody can be held responsible for the stock timing or spending decisions of another person, when that is just bad luck.
Nobody is responsible for the external commitments of another person, beyond that person themselves.
Nobody can be obligated to fulfil past expectations, when they tried their best, and there is a choice in the present.
Nobody can forcibly extract anything from anybody else, including their trust, which must be earned.
Nothing can be achieved without cooperation.
There are disappointments on both sides, but all parties need to learn from the past, and project to the future.


81
Another possible variation to help fund development and speed growth, without diluting BTS supply, is to issue a new token that has preference over network revenue. Let's call this a BTSP, short for "BTS Preferred".

Suppose BTSP are sold and raise funds of X. X can be used to fund a level of project development in excess of delegate based pay. The BTSP capital is repaid by having first preference over bitShares network revenue, until full repayment of [X+accumulating interest], has been completed. By structuring BTSP in this way, there is no impact at all on BTS supply - however, BTS owners are giving away the first cut of profits as a trade-off for faster development of the network.

As with any such structure, there are a number of variables that can be played with. For example:

Denomination - X can be denominated in BTS. Or it could be denominated as a fiat currency equivalent value of BTS.
Interest - can be preset, or subject to market bidding when capital is raised
Profit cut -  could be a meaningful proportion of network revenue (100% or less), and/or subject to a ceiling, or if project specific, might even relate to specific types of revenues
Performance triggers - repayment only begins if pre-specified development outcomes are met, or adopted into the protocol
Payment - could occur by using buybacks, settlements, or distributions.

If BTS owners were to accept the idea of sharing network revenue in order to allow deeper funding pools and faster network development (presumably subject to some sort of BTS vote), then it is also possible to invite alternative development teams to share in the development of the core protocol, and find community segments willing to fund them. This would require sound profit models, and the license arrangements with CNX might need some modification to deal with this flexibility.

If people are happy with the rate of development coming through on 2.0, this might not be considered necessary right at this point. In future I do think bitShares ultimately retains more control over development if it has a number of means to fund itself.



82
Random Discussion / Re: Crowdsourced Greek bailout
« on: July 01, 2015, 12:53:14 am »
Even if this is all above board (?), this would only cover the first payment missed today, a drop in the ocean.

83
BTS was built on the idea that we could create a currency-like token that can make profits for owners instead of losses. As such, BTS self-identities as both a currency-like store of value and a profit-generating share. This dichotomy of purpose makes it hard for the external market to evaluate.

For a currency, constraints on supply are all-important as a store of value. For a share, all that matters is profitability and return, and the shares themselves can be far more mutable. Who is asking questions about how many shares Apple or Google will have in 10 years' time? It's only about profit and growth.

So what is BTS? I worry that trying to be both risks failure on both fronts. You limit dilution to look like a currency, and ultimately you can't compete against more agile businesses on funding and growth, and resulting profitability and dominance of the target space. You make changes to dilution, burn, and reserves to solve the business economics, and you lose any sense of a stable and secure currency.

I keep thinking that bitShares will ultimately need to offer multiple tokens built specifically to achieve different ends, even if we keep BTS as is.

84
General Discussion / Re: Bitshares price discussion
« on: June 30, 2015, 11:51:23 am »
What logical rationale is there for LTC to be worth nearly 10 times BTS?  ???

85
General Discussion / Re: Dan is doing the right thing .. again!
« on: June 30, 2015, 05:05:41 am »
Here is an idea for how we could get better alignment on developer pay.

What if we pay developers part in BTS salary and part in "Performance Pay", giving them each a choice about the split they want?
Performance Pay could be structured as payments of BTS that are only exercisable if the BTS price or market cap exceeds some level at some future vesting date (e.g. 3 years). At that point the vested payments would be dilutive, but only if BTS had experienced substantial market cap growth. In this way, it may be that the prospect of future dilution is not viewed as a negative impact on the BTS price (although I accept not all BTS owners would find this acceptable).

Developer staff could have the following choices:

- Work for bitshares and receive pay of X BTS (less than market rate) - in this case they are like a salaried employee
- Work for bitShares and receive Performance Pay, with an underlying of X+Y BTS (will be worth more that straight salary if BTS is ultimately successful) - in this case, they are like workers in a startup business
- Work for some combination in the middle of these two extremes, depending on individual needs
- Work for IBM or Apple if they want and just invest in BTS, but potentially forgoing all the intangible benefits of working inside bitShares, such as future recognition and reputation value

Possibly such a structure could align everyone's interests better. Although something we must be alert to, as where executive options of this type are used in traditional industries, is that beneficiaries do not start focusing more on BTS price and trying to pump it through hype, than they do on underlying BTS progress and performance.

This is not the only possible solution I'm sure. But I think we would all be better served by creatively exploring the choices we can create, rather than irresolvable issues like rights, entitlements, or the fuzziness of future intents.

86
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: Two kinds of shares
« on: June 29, 2015, 11:23:08 am »
I like the lateral thinking of the OP. However I continue to feel that incentive schemes to vote or not vote will be subject to poor voting behaviour, because you cannot control the quality of the vote.For those who have no real attachment to the outcome of the vote, who would not have voted in the absence of the incentive, their optimal strategy is simply to vote randomly to try to win the incentive - maybe even do this in an automated way - rather than actually do the research and make an informed choice.

There is probably a strong link between the degree of interest or stake in an outcome, and the time that voters are willing to put into votes. So there needs to be a way for those with lower stakes, or less attachment to every individual decision, but still a strong attachment to the broad direction or strategy, to express their views in a convenient way.

I would like to see a system that allows users the option to delegate all their votes to other trusted or like-minded users, with a power of veto. Such delegations could be set by users across all issues, or be separated by the type of issue, and can be revoked or replaced at any time. In this way users without much time for research or voting, but who still want to have their personal philosophy or interests expressed in community decisions, can still easily participate. This may not be a perfect system either, but I think this might create fewer distortions and manipulations than incentive based systems. (I have wondered recently if something like Dynamic Account Permissions could even be used to do this in a very rudimentary form, by delegating control of vote tokens.)


87
General Discussion / Re: Privatized Smartcoin questions
« on: June 26, 2015, 10:39:26 am »
Only one type of collateral per bitasset, but that type can by any other asset including other BitAssets.  This is done because of the collateral type effects fungibility and there is no way to settle a blackswan when only one collateral type goes bad. 

What if the black swan mechanism created a reserve by taking collateral tokens from each individual short in a pre-defined sequence of preference, until the debt is covered, and returning the excess collateral tokens to the short. The reserve will then be comprised of mixed assets in a known mix of quantities, and subsequent settlements by longs would receive exactly the same pro-rata mix of quantities. Although the rules are more sophisticated, isn't such a settlement scheme feasible without losing fungibility?


88
General Discussion / Re: Poll: Community perception of Cryptonomex
« on: June 24, 2015, 10:30:37 pm »
I think the question might be reframed as follows:

Given that we are unwilling (or perhaps don't know how) to fully fund the development ourselves, is what are the relative pros and cons of CNX as a solution?

My conditional view of this is that CNX is a short/medium term solution with benefits and risks, because either of the following two scenarios are likely to unfold:

i) bitShares price takes off, and the amount of funding available from dilution then becomes more than adequate to self-fund CNX to prioritise bitshares above all else, or

ii) bitShares price continues to languish for a meaningful period - either we become a less significant revenue stream for CNX compared to other growth areas of their business, or the developers walk away to other interests.

That's why I'd prefer for bitShares to have self-funding options, assuming that can be made possible. I'm open to other views though - they're just my concerns as they stand right now.

89
Thanks everyone for all the very constructive feedback. To summarise the views:
- there is skepticism that a pure currency will gain traction,
- reluctance to give up the hybrid model and the extra "immutability" valuation conferred from the crypto space
- question on whether the R&D is worth it
I understand each of those concerns.

I think it is a safeguard for bitShares to have flexibility in its own funding options. Its possible that a competitor starts up with deeper and more flexible funding sources to build a competing financial platform. Its also possible that CNX may not receive enough funding from bitShares to prioritise bitShares-specific projects over competing calls on its developer resources if its business grows in other areas. Either of those events still dilutes our interest, and we may be compelled to consider wider options. What I'd like to see happen is for CNX or other development teams to always see working for the system as their best option. So I still want to explore ideas here, but perhaps that are less disruptive on the current BTS structure.

[As a tentative possibility along these lines, we could keep BTS as is, while less restricted tokens could be sold to provide additional finance to a development team (CNX for example) under more flexible funding arrangements.]

90
What is the difference between this token and a normal currency? Seems very close if not exactly the same to me?

Sorry, I didn't provide any context for my question.
The difference is that it earns a yield on the deposit tokens.
The yield is market-determined to alter supply and demand and always target parity to fair value against the peg (assuming yields are not constrained at zero).
I don't see a reason why it should cost any more than currency.
And it still delivers cash-like functionality, unless there is some other reason to use cash. Hence my question.

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