What reason do they have to accept the cost of not offering the cheapest they are able directly in btc? To prop up safecoin? What will they do against people who accept btc at those prices?

I want someone to break down why two parties will consistently choose to trade their preffered money into and out of safecoin before performing their exchange. The only way for this to happen is if the DAC doesn't work unless you do, and you can only get people to accept that cost is for the value add from the DAC (not from the other party in the exchange!!) is greater than that cost.

Maidsafe is facilitating transactions for free (at cost even??) and then promoting a maidsafe-brand cryptocurrency on the side.


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Seems like there are **loads** of features or things that could be arbitrarily offered for safecoins.   All they have to do is offer a customization/parts suite that comes as a default bookmark and make Safecoin the cheapest option.  The market has a good reason to value the safecoins, there is no per-piece cost for anything sold on this platform for safecoins and the safecoins can be sold back onto the market at this supported price.

They may not have done this yet, but it's a trivial thing to do once the platform is there - I'm a little curious what great insight you have Daniel?   I've already got folks onboard with an angelshares-like model and the various work is open source.

Quote from: asenski on April 23, 2014, 04:25:27 PM
Byte master you are missing the forest for the trees. Once you have a secure layer of storage and messaging, all sorts of decentralized solutions built on top of that will emerge. It may take some time but the demand will be there. Your viewpoint is a tad narrow minded here. Yes the initial investment may not be worth for people donating in BTC, but they have a surprisingly well WORKING software. That will really propel them. Also if the supply has no demand many will not provide their storage so it will eventually balance itself out. Then there will be quality of service, and those who are on 24/7 reliably will get more clients.


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I totally recognize the VALUE of what they are producing which is independent of the VALUE of the SAFE coins.  I was working in their problem domain prior to inventing BitShares X.   Decentralized hosting of arbitrary content is huge if it can achieve high performance..... think freenet with speed.

To get the high performance though requires more than just solid software, it requires a solid economic model.   Theirs is broken and as a result will likely perform only a little better than other P2P distributed hosting systems. 

I feel like I am going insane. If the high level save the world application layer services do not accept *exclusively* safecoin, their amazingness will still have no impact on the price.

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Byte master you are missing the forest for the trees. Once you have a secure layer of storage and messaging, all sorts of decentralized solutions built on top of that will emerge. It may take some time but the demand will be there. Your viewpoint is a tad narrow minded here. Yes the initial investment may not be worth for people donating in BTC, but they have a surprisingly well WORKING software. That will really propel them. Also if the supply has no demand many will not provide their storage so it will eventually balance itself out. Then there will be quality of service, and those who are on 24/7 reliably will get more clients.


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Quote from: liondani on April 23, 2014, 04:09:53 PM

Quote from: bytemaster on April 23, 2014, 03:51:34 PM
  People will be earning a ton of safecoin by providing resources to the network and most will be looking to sell it.

Will that not create a network effect as a payment system to ?
Because a ton of safecoin's will go to a "ton" of people?

A ton of air is going to a ton of people... what is its value?    Why buy what you can earn.  The network effect you want is demand based on scarcity and not supply based on abundance. 

Price is driven by supply and demand, with safe coin there is ample supply but no demand.  Those that hold it are constantly debased to fund the growing of the network. 

Maidsafe is a case study in the same supply-side economics that is destroying the fiat economy. 

Who will trade their bitcoin for safecoin in order to buy things? Who will not trade their safecoin for bitcoin when they receive it?

Our DACs have concrete, clear answers to the above, in terms of real life needs and wants. If you don't you will be eaten by bitcoin.

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Quote from: bytemaster on April 23, 2014, 03:51:34 PM
  People will be earning a ton of safecoin by providing resources to the network and most will be looking to sell it.

Will that not create a network effect as a payment system to ?
Because a ton of safecoin's will go to a "ton" of people?

The other problem they have is that resources are load-balanced in a deterministic (centralized way) rather than market dynamics. 

A proper solution to this problem has each node decide for itself what to host that will earn it the most profit.  Their solution removes this control from nodes which have no say over what they must host.

Quote from: toast on April 23, 2014, 03:48:11 PM
That's what I imagined but the thing is that they have no description anywhere explaining how safecoin is to be spent to get services from the network

Yep.
I looked at their google group to understand why their coin should have value and when someone bring the economics flaw of their model, the only answer was that economics law are not truth, that they are here to create new paradigm with new ideas, that economics fuck up the planet and some other random nonsense: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/vkr5mty4k4s

That's pretty scary.

Quote from: toast on April 23, 2014, 03:28:41 PM
Bitcoin's value is from it's network effect as a payment system.
Paying people coins doesn't give them value. How is demand for safecoin generated?

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from the "farmers"/miners
Right now on the crypto community exist a lot of altcoin miners...
That means people (included me) have their computers 24 hours a day open,  so if I have  unused hard drive space (i have enough) why not participate on  SAFE network and earn some extra safecoins knowing I make it for a good cause? (decentralized Internet )

maidsafe doesn't charge users for consuming resources, in fact it appears to reward App developers for consuming resources. 

The coins are not divisible like Bitcoin, they are more like tokens.   The security model on their system is complex and depends upon randomization to limit ability to collude and voting of a small subset to establish consensus.  Basically, you ask the set of peers around a given coin's address who it belongs to.

As a result of this structure I expect lots of trouble for transacting in large quantities of safe coin.   People will be earning a ton of safecoin by providing resources to the network and most will be looking to sell it.   

That's what I imagined but the thing is that they have no description anywhere explaining how safecoin is to be spent to get services from the network

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Quote from: toast on April 23, 2014, 03:28:41 PMHow is demand for safecoin generated?

Surely that follows directly from the demand for the Maidsafe network. Developers will get paid for the services they provide. Normal users might get some reward for providing resources but their use of the network will have to be subsidized via safecoin.

Bitcoin's value is from it's network effect as a payment system.
Paying people coins doesn't give them value. How is demand for safecoin generated?

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