Author Topic: Should we continue to funding mining of PTS?  (Read 24652 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Please also inform the exchanges trading pts to STOP trading once and for all after the snapshot ... thia is VERY important

lzr1900

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Can we just PLEASE make a new CLEAN and STICKY topic with what is going to happen to PTS and a clear time frame for it to happen and the rules etc etc etc (and no possibility to comment) - i think this is quite important, as lots of us are worried this might hurt bitshares if not done properly.
BTW, all this campaign MUST be followed directly and all along the line by CLEARLY stating everywhere that NOTHING IS BEING ERASED
+5% +5%
+5%

Offline inarizushi

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Can we just PLEASE make a new CLEAN and STICKY topic with what is going to happen to PTS and a clear time frame for it to happen and the rules etc etc etc (and no possibility to comment) - i think this is quite important, as lots of us are worried this might hurt bitshares if not done properly.
BTW, all this campaign MUST be followed directly and all along the line by CLEARLY stating everywhere that NOTHING IS BEING ERASED
+5% +5%
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline serejandmyself

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Can we just PLEASE make a new CLEAN and STICKY topic with what is going to happen to PTS and a clear time frame for it to happen and the rules etc etc etc (and no possibility to comment) - i think this is quite important, as lots of us are worried this might hurt bitshares if not done properly.
BTW, all this campaign MUST be followed directly and all along the line by CLEARLY stating everywhere that NOTHING IS BEING ERASED
btsx - bitsharesrussia

Offline 天籁

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It is better that I3 makes the announcement.
In the crypto world, 2.5 weeks is enough time. It's not like we're erasing PTS, just snapshotting it. Even if someone goes on vacation for a month and misses this, then:

(1) If they hold PTS, they'll have value returned to them, and

(2) If they don't hold PTS and wish they'd bought some, they still can acquire BitShares Genesis, which will be a liquid asset.

The only people 'out of luck' are those who want to profit short term from the rises and falls. And if they're into short term trading, then it's their fault they checked out for 2.5 weeks.

The rules are that snapshots give two week's notice.  So if someone decides to do this, you've got several whole days left to make the announcement if you want to hit the Nov 5th anniversary date.   :)

Offline Stan

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In the crypto world, 2.5 weeks is enough time. It's not like we're erasing PTS, just snapshotting it. Even if someone goes on vacation for a month and misses this, then:

(1) If they hold PTS, they'll have value returned to them, and

(2) If they don't hold PTS and wish they'd bought some, they still can acquire BitShares Genesis, which will be a liquid asset.

The only people 'out of luck' are those who want to profit short term from the rises and falls. And if they're into short term trading, then it's their fault they checked out for 2.5 weeks.

The rules are that snapshots give two week's notice.  So if someone decides to do this, you've got several whole days left to make the announcement if you want to hit the Nov 5th anniversary date.   :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline donkeypong

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In the crypto world, 2.5 weeks is enough time. It's not like we're erasing PTS, just snapshotting it. Even if someone goes on vacation for a month and misses this, then:

(1) If they hold PTS, they'll have value returned to them, and

(2) If they don't hold PTS and wish they'd bought some, they still can acquire BitShares Genesis, which will be a liquid asset.

The only people 'out of luck' are those who want to profit short term from the rises and falls. And if they're into short term trading, then it's their fault they checked out for 2.5 weeks.

Tuck Fheman

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Novemeber 5 is only 2.5 weeks away! CoinHoarder mentioned this too, that seems WAY TOO SOON. I know you want to blow up Parliament (tee hee, civil disobedience joke!), but don't rush the snapshot just for the sake of symbolism! You're making a major change to the role and function of PTS, and this needs to be very well publicized. 2.5 weeks is a dangerously short time for this!

 +5% 

I do not like the idea of closing PTS; it's a pretty cool story to give everybody the chance to buy in to the possibility of the next big thing. Maybe a counter-argument is that they can buy into any of the other proto-DACs they want; the problem with this is it requires research and it's really great to have a nice technology-agnostic staking coin like PTS so people can speculate on the idea of the whole DAC industry.

 +5%
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 04:02:29 am by Tuck Fheman »

Offline bytemaster

Merging AGS + PTS into GENESIS would transfer value from PTS to AGS holders...
What percent of AGS holders would sell if made liquid?   I think it would be small so this would result in offsetting the elimination of mining dilution from PTS. 

The story gets MUCH simpler for marketing purposes and cleans up our whole ecosystem:

BTSX with GENSIS asset trading against BitUSD all on one chain.... in one wallet.   

Now obviously this would help the community.... and I think it would be fair if someone did it and others recognized it. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline CryptoPrometheus

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Offline amencon

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I think we are in agreement that PTS should result in the creation of a new liquid asset class that performs the same function.
I think we are in agreement that 2 weeks is too fast...
I think we are in agreement that issuing on BTSX is best

I just think it should be clear that any new asset is not "PTS" and not produced by I3 or DAC Sun and if done properly will be recognized as "fair" by us.
I like this conclusion.  I doubt anyone is strongly attached to keeping the mining part of PTS around, but I think it's important to keep it liquid.

I believe too many people have invested in PTS based on the understanding that it would be liquid to just pull the rug out from under them.  Ander also made an excellent point about future prospective investors potentially turning away from the ecosystem due to not having a liquid token they are able to buy into as a speculation on the future of I3 supported DACs.

I'm nearly certain that DACs in general will at some point flourish, that you will see them spring up and compete all over the place.  Hopefully by that time, Bitshares will be seen as a pioneer and will have sprouted at least some of the most successful and well known DACs to date.  I think the decentralized revolution is just beginning and it seems crazy to cut off investment opportunities into the future of the Bitshares ecosystem.

Doesn't everyone imagine there being incredible and complex DACs still be launched and tested say 5 years from now?  Isn't Bitshares positioned well to ride the crest of the coming tsunami of DACs yet to be invented in the future?  Isn't the point of PTS to invest in future DACs?  Feels short sighted to cut it off now and call it mission accomplished.  I always assumed it would be years down the line when PTS would get very interesting, after the word was out and DACs following the social consensus were well known and well regarded, with more being created all the time.

I'm actually quite surprised to see so many supporting the "lock-in" of PTS.

I'm rather ambivalent about the naming of the new "PTS" asset, Genesis sounds pretty good but I think the other suggestions would also work.

Offline arhag

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I believe you made the right decision. Breaching the social contract is definitely a bad idea in anytime, especially the benefit of shareholders is effected. PTS was designed to be liquid whereas AGS was not, we need to keep this promise.

I've always been against the idea of making AGS transferable...

TRUE strength requires flexibility and rigidity to complement each other. The current AGS/PTS value proposition is a great model for this theory, right? AGS rigidly represents the most willing and generous of the early crowd, while PTS supports the ebb and flow of new interests. Take away the flexibility, and you have a set group of insiders that gets to reap disproportional benefits. Take away the rigidity, and your "mailing list" becomes less appealing to those wishing to secure *solid* support.


I really don't get this desire some people have to not make AGS liquid. Making AGS liquid doesn't take away anything from people, it only gives them more options. If you are an AGS holder and you don't want to sell, then just don't sell the new asset when AGS becomes liquid. I don't understand how you benefit from being denied the ability to transfer it.

And even if you deny AGS holders the ability to sell, it doesn't mean you will necessarily get "solid support" by allocating your DAC's genesis shares to AGS. Any AGS holders who have changed their mind and given up on the DAC idea (or maybe just your specific DAC) for whatever reason will be weak hands that will just dump the free shares given to them once your DAC goes live. Rigidity is not at all desirable in this case, but flexibility is. You want the proto-shares to be transferable so that the strongest hands are self-selected to hold your initial shares. It's even better if a portion of the initial shares are allocated according to an IPO because then the DAC gets self-selected strong hands to hold the initial shares and the DAC creators get enough initial capital to give the DAC a fighting chance for success.

Offline bytemaster

BitShares GENESIS... I like it :) 

You are trading genesis stake in future chains... much better than PTS and much clearer to describe.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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I think we are in agreement that PTS should result in the creation of a new liquid asset class that performs the same function.
I think we are in agreement that 2 weeks is too fast...
I think we are in agreement that issuing on BTSX is best

I just think it should be clear that any new asset is not "PTS" and not produced by I3 or DAC Sun and if done properly will be recognized as "fair" by us.

I believe you made the right decision. Breaching the social contract is definitely a bad idea in anytime, especially the benefit of shareholders is effected. PTS was designed to be liquid whereas AGS was not, we need to keep this promise.  Therefore, migrating PTS to BTSX assert should be the best idea, because PTS is still liquid. Additionally, it increases the use the BTSX market. One stone, two birds. +5% +5% +5%     
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Offline donkeypong

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Could we do a AGS style donation for the remaining PTS?

I normally hate it when people talk about "the remaining PTS", but I actually like this idea. This or simply scaling existing balances to reach some convenient round number total.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

I would just scale it. The same people who own PTS now would buy it again through AGS. Unless I3 needs the additional money that badly, I'd rather just see that money kept in the hands of the people who might invest it into some part of BTSX or elsewhere in the BitShares ecosystem. I'd rather add value there.