Author Topic: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once  (Read 58963 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pollux

  • Guest
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2014, 03:34:19 am »
I understand and agree with the statement that "we need to recognize those who have helped fund development after Feb 28th so they don't compete with us."

However, I don't see why or how anybody who participated in AGS or for that matter PTS after the snapshot would have any expectation of getting a stake in BTSX.

The proposal to have a lock-in period of 6 months is at best a hack and at worst arbitrary.

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2014, 03:34:26 am »
I am pretty sure the prices of BTSX, PTS, etc are now about to freak out once everyone sees this..but I have no idea in which direction. :)
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 03:37:36 am »
I understand and agree with the statement that "we need to recognize those who have helped fund development after Feb 28th so they don't compete with us."

However, I don't see why or how anybody who participated in AGS or for that matter PTS after the snapshot would have any expectation of getting a stake in BTSX.

The proposal to have a lock-in period of 6 months is at best a hack and at worst arbitrary.

I'm sure the hack can be refined.

But if we are doing a merger of BTSX with various future DACS to form *BTS* then they definitely do have a valid interest.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline teenagecheese

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 03:38:03 am »
Bytemaster, I am glad you posted this. While I'm not sure if you've read my comments, I am sure you are aware of my, and others', concerns and looking for a way to resolve them. Awesome!

I think consolidating is a great idea. The way I see it should be is this:

1. Have one DAC (bitshares) with one token (bitshare) you can invest in if you want to be a part of it.
2. Have multiple products from this DAC, i.e., bithshares exchange (x), bitshares vote, bitshares dns, bitshares ID
3. Have these products be tied together with one fungible currency (bitUSD), as well as coordinated ID system and email system and everything (hmmm this is sounding like a succesful model we are all familiar with....GOOGLE!
4. I think you would still need btsx to make bitshares x work, I'm not sure about that or not. Could use some discussion I think.
5. I am totally for resolving and simplyfing AGS and PTS in some way, must be fair of course
6. Dilution is fine if everyone votes on it, because as you say, bitshares are not currency, they ARE a share in a company

What does everyone think? Will totally linking everything together cause problems, with voting for instance. I don't know, but I think not.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2014, 03:39:23 am »
I understand and agree with the statement that "we need to recognize those who have helped fund development after Feb 28th so they don't compete with us."

However, I don't see why or how anybody who participated in AGS or for that matter PTS after the snapshot would have any expectation of getting a stake in BTSX.

The proposal to have a lock-in period of 6 months is at best a hack and at worst arbitrary.

They didn't expect to get a stake in BTSX... but they did in domains, voting, and every other idea we came up with.  If we add those to BTSX you better believe they would expect a cut to be fair.  I picked 6 months because that is how long I think it would be reasonable to expect some of those features in BTS.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline roadscape

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2014, 03:40:55 am »
It seems we're at a fork between expectations and reality. Hopefully we can merge without conflict :)

I agree with the 7 problem points in the OP. They need to be resolved. I think this proposal is a step in the right direction.
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2014, 03:42:55 am »
Just to stimulate your metaphorical thinking for what they are worth...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mergers_and_acquisitions
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Method-X

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1131
  • VIRAL
    • View Profile
    • Learn to code
  • BitShares: methodx
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2014, 03:43:03 am »
I really like the idea of a snapshotable token (PTS) that allows any third party developer to create a DAC and leverage the BitShares community. That idea is solid and doesn't need to be done away with. It only needs to be simplified: either combine AGS/PTS into one liquid asset on the BitShares exchange or use BTSX (BTS?) as the snapshotable token itself. Want to use the BitShares toolkit and get gain the support and network effect the entire community offers? Snapshot BTS.

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2014, 03:43:47 am »

So is KeyID/DNS DAC  going to be killed off ?  Or is that going to continue since it should be self-funding ?

This is just a discussion... no decisions have been made and I am not speaking for the entire team.  I am just trying to find a solution that aligns peoples loyalties.   

Right now Toast is 100% responsible for KeyID / DNS and it will be up to him and the DNS community.

1) This idea has not been run by Toast, Follow my Vote, or Agent 86
2) This is just a proposal that I want feedback on

I deleted this post once I realized my mistake.  Sigh.  It is a lot more reasonable to me now that I think about it and understand.  I can't exactly +5% it though.  I'd want to mull it over for days.  I realize I have some attachment to the concept of PTS/AGS etc.  So I am not necessarily rational as I should be in that area.  As long as the core DACs are fired off and autonomous the idea seems palatable.

This basically just means rolling PTS/AGS into "Bitshares" and not going with the VOTE DAC. 

God have mercy on us.

;)
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline teenagecheese

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2014, 03:45:36 am »
It seems we're at a fork between expectations and reality. Hopefully we can merge without conflict :)

I agree with the 7 problem points in the OP. They need to be resolved. I think this proposal is a step in the right direction.

Yes, I think good things will come from this thread, whatever the decision is. This is a huge positive in my opinion. I am now more excited than ever about bitshares!

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2014, 03:48:24 am »
I understand and agree with the statement that "we need to recognize those who have helped fund development after Feb 28th so they don't compete with us."

However, I don't see why or how anybody who participated in AGS or for that matter PTS after the snapshot would have any expectation of getting a stake in BTSX.


Yes, but they have other expectations that need to be met.   How do you resolve the above 2 points and not have Bytemaster continue on to do what was uhm suggested by I3.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BitShares: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2014, 03:49:14 am »
At the risk of calling BitShares one DAC to rule them all... I think we can worry about that after we have achieved critical mass, until then someone else may come along and build one DAC to rule them all and we don't want them to get there if we can get there first.

Yes. We are too new and small to afford so much division. The whole point of the multiple DACs is to be scalable. But we are too small to worry about scalability limits right now. We just need to worry about getting that critical network effect so that we aren't wiped out by a competitor that clones the BitShares toolkit with better marketing.

After we reach a point where we have a large network effect, large market cap, and lots of new features, we can then worry about splitting the DAC into multiple ones specializing in different industries.

We can argue the details of this plan over time, but for now I will say that I agree with the general principle behind it. However, the dilution point is really important. We need to make it clear that this is a DAC that we intend to use dilution to help fund our efforts and we also need to be clear about the particular mechanics behind how dilution will work and what control shareholders have over it.

Edit: Also who knows. Maybe we will find that the way we want to tackle the scalability problem in the future is to just make this BitShares DAC into a meta-DAC as discussed here. Maybe the community will decide it is more important to keep all BitAssets on one DAC despite the trade-offs that proposal introduces.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 03:55:14 am by arhag »

Offline teenagecheese

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2014, 03:50:49 am »
I really like the idea of a snapshotable token (PTS) that allows any third party developer to create a DAC and leverage the BitShares community. That idea is solid and doesn't need to be done away with. It only needs to be simplified: either combine AGS/PTS into one liquid asset on the BitShares exchange or use BTSX (BTS?) as the snapshotable token itself. Want to use the BitShares toolkit and get gain the support and network effect the entire community offers? Snapshot BTS.

I like this concept, if you want to create a new DAC and do the 10-20% airdrop share honoring thing, why not just take a snapshot of the main company shares bts. It still allows people to invest in future dacs just like PTS does and it simplifies everything and gives more value to bts!!!

Offline Mysto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2014, 03:51:17 am »
I realize I have some attachment to the concept of PTS/AGS etc.  So I am not necessarily rational as I should be in that area. 
It takes some one with great perspective to admit this  +5%

Offline roadscape

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2014, 03:55:41 am »
God have mercy on us.

That's the BTS motto :D

Our goal will be to scale BitShares to handle the transaction volume and users... to solve the scaling problem while still remaining decentralized and allowing 0 barriers to entry for competition except our network effect.

In the future, if a unified BTS can't handle the load, could overgrown parts just be moved into a separate DAC and sharedropped 100%?

edit:

I suggest that all future proposals change the subject to "Viability Discussion:xxxxxx" instead of "Proposal".
+5%
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape