Author Topic: Stop arguing percentages and look at the bigger picture.  (Read 13305 times)

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Offline tonyk

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Am I the only one as exited as scared and as scared as exited?
Hell no .. you are not!

Yes I am...

Controlled PR:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10357.msg135902#msg135902

The most valuable new team members:
- People that are above the useless crowd and do not want to share their great wisdom with the masses...
- Have proposed only anti free market measures... most of them with fail rate of near 100% (but even when their suggestion fail, the 10% of their proposal that stays is praised as great achievement in itself... and like it was a proposal in by itself)
- Propose 'improvements' (usually with almost no open discussion) and such improvements that the main gain from them is complicating things and slowing down the development of bare minimum stable client.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline arhag

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I don't want to create a two class forum. 

Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol.

But currently there already are two different classes: I3 and all other stakeholders. To me it seems even more centralized to have the secret access be determined arbitrarily by those already on the inside, rather than through some objective measure.

I foresee the balance between secrecy for strategic business reasons and transparency for informed decentralized control by shareholders to be one of the larger pain points in the new governance system that we are developing with BTS. Really the same problems already exist in corporations and similar problems exist with national governments as well, just replace "strategic business reasons" with "national security".

Not sure what is the best way to organize things. We will figure that out I guess. What I do know is that the decisions will ultimately rest in the hands of the stakeholders. If the entities funded through BTS capital infusion don't have the right balance between secrecy/transparency, then they will be voted out and no longer receive funds to continue their job.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 11:01:15 pm by arhag »

Offline oldman

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OP  +5%

Investors need stay informed and engaged, but there is entirely too much bitching from the armchair crowd.

Folks need to let I3 get this bird off the ground.

Offline Rune

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I don't want to create a two class forum. 

Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol.

But currently there already are two different classes: I3 and all other stakeholders. To me it seems even more centralized to have the secret access be determined arbitrarily by those already on the inside, rather than through some objective measure.

Offline Rune

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You act like being an early adopter is a privilege, that you deserve everything you can get your hands on. Let me tell you it is not. It is a gift, maybe the greatest gift anyone has ever received - and it is time that you take on the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think we are seeing "true colors" from a lot of people, out on display for all the community to see. Who can handle the intensity of the reality of what needs to be done? I am most impressed by the ones that haveaccepted this reality, even though it may have meant a temporary personal "loss". My observation is that those who hold most tightly to their "expectations", are the ones who cry the loudest when they find out the world does not revolve around them.

I'm getting sick of Rune's thinly hidden cheerleading.  The account is not even a month old and this person is condescending to people who have been around far longer, done far more, and bought into something completely different.

He is telling us same cheerleading we heard before he was even around.

It was not an honor or a privilege to have been early investors.  We did this by making the correct decisions.  Make those correct decisions required labor and intelligence.  We worked for it.  You probably came around after seeing BTSX on coinmarketcap.  So save your bullshit for others.

As for everything else it seems fairly close to a done deal.  I'm not happy, but mainly it is over the cultural shift.  It is likely required and likely a good thing.  I just don't understand what exactly these "mergers" mean or what exactly they imply and it is a source of my irritation. The value equation is very complicated and depends on a lot of small factors which have been vague and scattered about.

In the end I'd ask people to start being nicer.  I'm sure Dan never really wanted it to turn out like this, and it really is as much a proactive move as reactive I believe.  Yesterday I had a lot little jabs and snide posts.  It is hard not to be that way.  For me this pivot makes it harder to be a rah-rah fanboy as my vision isn't as much aligned with this single DAC centric one.  I'd imagine it is like being a sports fan (whatever thats like) and seeing your whole team just die on the field.  Ok.. not really.. I'm kidding.. Seriously though I will try to be more positive.  We'll see where she goes as I can't see any other project as worthy of my time.  :|
If you look at the history Rune was in forefront pushing for the merger in the VOTE thread that started all this (I think Rune made the proposal before BM did).  Now that he has what he wants he's trying to get everyone to shut up and just go along as quietly as possible.  To help facilitate this he just has to shake the pompoms a few times to get the +5% crowd going.

On top of that in the confusion he's now also proposing a system where an elite few get access to secret forums for all the inside details from the devs.  At what stake threshold to gain access does he propose, close to around the amount of stake he controls...

It's just a bunch of manipulative bullshit, never let a good crisis go to waste and all that.

Like everyone else, at the very least I've not been bored haha.

Okay first of all, we are stakeholders in the same company. Our goal of increasing value should align, and it would make no sense for me to act in a way puts you at a disadvantage, as I'd also be hurting myself. If you think it would be more profitable for us to have several DACs, and that I have hurt you financially then fine you are right to be mad at me, but you have to understand that I did it only with the best intentions of increasing value for everyone (including myself). Ideologically, I would prefer many DACs, but in practice I don't think any other strategy than a superDAC is economically viable. If we did not make the superDAC, someone else would, and their superDAC would outcompete ours. Do you trust that other random community to be as honest as ours? My experience tells me that most other altcoins have pretty horrible pump n dump communities that put profit above everything else compared to this one. Since there is no other way, what I hope to achieve is that our superDAC is created in a way that stays true to the principles of decentralization. I'm of course also very excited to see what it will end up becoming.

Regarding the insider club, you're right that it's a bad thing, but consider that right now the insider club is I3 with no transparency at all. I would prefer to have absolute transparency with nothing being hidden from anyone with no barriers to entry whatsoever, and I hope we can implement that once we have achieved significant network effect. Right now it seems that I3 employees thinks it is vital to keep a lot of information secret to avoid having it stolen by competitors. I trust their judgement in this regard, even if I don't like it, and that is why I proposed the "secret insider club" of large stakeholders to be able to share this sensitive information, so that there at least are people independent from the developers who are able to hear it and report their sentiments to the broader community.

I guess delegates could also be used for this regard, but I suspect that delegates will devolve into politics and we would then be stuck with this secret insider club political elite that I think could go really bad.

The fact that I conveniently decided to put the bar exactly so that I could join the secret insider club was pretty stupid I guess, but in the end it would be up to I3 to decide who to let in on their secrets, and also since I'm the only member of the community that I know for a fact could be trusted to be honest and transparent about relaying what stage these secret projects are at, I just can't help be biased. I know the fact that I trust myself useless for everyone else but I just wanted to voice my thought process. At least I disclosed my share, it would be worse if I conveniently put my proposal at my own share level without disclosing it and then pretended it was for some other reason.

In the end I already own enough shares to become ridiculously wealthy once this blockchain takes off. I could just sit back and do nothing and I'm sure there'd be massive price bubbles regardless, but I feel compelled to argue for as much transparency as possible, and try to push the DAC in the direction that I am convinced is best for everyone. It's quite disheartening to become the target of hostility. That being said I also realize that I'm unfairly lucky to be a purely BTSX investor, and I've been insensitive to the frustrations of those that held other shares, and for that I'm sorry.


Offline matt608

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Offline Method-X

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The delegate campaigning is going to get more and more fierce and discussion among stakeholders on who to vote for will keep increasing.  There will need to be some kind of social platform other than this forum to do all this.  This whole thing is so exciting, I mean its a first of its kind!  Decentralised self-governance is my go to explanation for how to save the world (besides being really really nice to each other :) ) and bitshares is looking to become a vital experiment in bringing about that vision!

My thoughts go to, what social platform to use, liquid democracy from the german pirate party?  DemocacyOS?  There are lots of them out there.  Or maybe the VOTE features will cover it.  That may be a discussion for another day, it's pretty intense around here.

I just want to point out that enthusiasm can be real and not purely money-motivated!  :D

http://nullstreet.com/is-the-future-of-delegated-proof-of-stake-political/

Offline matt608

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The delegate campaigning is going to get more and more fierce and discussion among stakeholders on who to vote for will keep increasing.  There will need to be some kind of social platform other than this forum to do all this.  This whole thing is so exciting, I mean its a first of its kind!  Decentralised self-governance is my go to explanation for how to save the world (besides being really really nice to each other :) ) and bitshares is looking to become a vital experiment in bringing about that vision!

My thoughts go to what social platform to use, liquid democracy from the german pirate party?  DemocacyOS?  There are lots of them out there.  Or maybe the VOTE features will cover it.  That may be a discussion for another day, it's pretty intense around here.

I just want to point out that enthusiasm can be real and not purely money-motivated!  :D

« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 09:59:49 pm by matt608 »

Offline xeroc

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Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol.
You just can't possibly READ every post in here ..
I have plenty of free time to invest and still have troubles reading them all ..

BTW .. it's quite difficult to catch up to your 7k+ posts .. I gave up half the way :)

Offline bytemaster

I don't want to create a two class forum. 

Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline amencon

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You act like being an early adopter is a privilege, that you deserve everything you can get your hands on. Let me tell you it is not. It is a gift, maybe the greatest gift anyone has ever received - and it is time that you take on the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think we are seeing "true colors" from a lot of people, out on display for all the community to see. Who can handle the intensity of the reality of what needs to be done? I am most impressed by the ones that haveaccepted this reality, even though it may have meant a temporary personal "loss". My observation is that those who hold most tightly to their "expectations", are the ones who cry the loudest when they find out the world does not revolve around them.

I'm getting sick of Rune's thinly hidden cheerleading.  The account is not even a month old and this person is condescending to people who have been around far longer, done far more, and bought into something completely different.

He is telling us same cheerleading we heard before he was even around.

It was not an honor or a privilege to have been early investors.  We did this by making the correct decisions.  Make those correct decisions required labor and intelligence.  We worked for it.  You probably came around after seeing BTSX on coinmarketcap.  So save your bullshit for others.

As for everything else it seems fairly close to a done deal.  I'm not happy, but mainly it is over the cultural shift.  It is likely required and likely a good thing.  I just don't understand what exactly these "mergers" mean or what exactly they imply and it is a source of my irritation. The value equation is very complicated and depends on a lot of small factors which have been vague and scattered about.

In the end I'd ask people to start being nicer.  I'm sure Dan never really wanted it to turn out like this, and it really is as much a proactive move as reactive I believe.  Yesterday I had a lot little jabs and snide posts.  It is hard not to be that way.  For me this pivot makes it harder to be a rah-rah fanboy as my vision isn't as much aligned with this single DAC centric one.  I'd imagine it is like being a sports fan (whatever thats like) and seeing your whole team just die on the field.  Ok.. not really.. I'm kidding.. Seriously though I will try to be more positive.  We'll see where she goes as I can't see any other project as worthy of my time.  :|
If you look at the history Rune was in forefront pushing for the merger in the VOTE thread that started all this (I think Rune made the proposal before BM did).  Now that he has what he wants he's trying to get everyone to shut up and just go along as quietly as possible.  To help facilitate this he just has to shake the pompoms a few times to get the +5% crowd going.

On top of that in the confusion he's now also proposing a system where an elite few get access to secret forums for all the inside details from the devs.  At what stake threshold to gain access does he propose, close to around the amount of stake he controls...

It's just a bunch of manipulative bullshit, never let a good crisis go to waste and all that.

Like everyone else, at the very least I've not been bored haha.

Offline xeroc

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That's not rockets firing up .. that's the computers booting to show the launch sequence :)

Offline bobmaloney

The last week has surely been the most exciting time to be a member of this community - it really seems as if the rockets are already firing and we're about to experience some serious G's.
"The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw."
- Jack Handey (SNL)

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Offline xeroc

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Am I the only one as exited as scared and as scared as exited?
Hell no .. you are not!