WeTube DAC - decentralized media provider - the future YouTube

[jae208]

So how is progress going on with wetube? I think this is a great idea!
Is there a status update thread on this?

[heropzy]

Great idea

[fran2k]

Maybe something like Bit Torrent Live?

[liberman]

I want to update the thread to say that I'm writing the spec these days.
Some things have changed, but most of the original idea will be there.
Most of my efforts are for the part of the nodes. I want them to be the ones making this system work.
I have analyzed bandwidth requirements and got to the conclusion that the system cannot go smoothly by just users sharing their home internet connection, so private servers with large bandwidth capacity are required.
Nodes will also be the ones making most of the money, so maintaining a node will be like an investment.
Therefore, sharing bandwidth will be like mining in today systems, but this time for doing something useful, not just burn CPUs.

Many programmers have contacted me asking what they can do. Please wait for the first specification draft to start programming something, but you can share your ideas with us by mail or in #wetube (freenode). Also, my skype is "javier.liberman".

[liberman]

You cannot verify bandwidth sharing in a global money supply.   You need long lived nodes with reputation and credit.   Each node must issue its own money and then trade these credits on automated markets. 

There is no block chain in this model.  You really need a ripple like model for the nodes but I suspect it will be too inefficient.   

I spent months designing tornet to find a workable economic model and you would do well to understand my design as a starting point for improvement.

I try to understand it fully, but I have some doubts.

Supposing that connections are never made directly from peer to peer, but they always pass through a chain of nodes like in Tor, each node can verify the amount of bandwidth that it delegates.
Propagation can happen in chunks (for example, 100K each), and every chunk comes signed from both the originator and the reciever, and all the nodes it traverses. For every block traversed, there is an amount of coins generated.
Now, I know what you are thinking: any malicious attacker can create a short circuit and become itself the originator, the nodes, and the receiver, creating money from nothing. I suppose this attack can be called "self-fake-serving". That is why I've been thinking about a solution that I have not yet written because there are some issues, but bassically it can be described this way:

Not a single node can choose the nodes it connects to, the receivers or the originators. Receivers and originators cannot, too.
A list of nodes and their IPs will be in a signed pool in the cloud, and downloaded by every single server every 10min. This pool must be signed by every server that wants to enter into the system, so for every IP listed there, there is a signature corresponding to the public key of the node using that IP. We can make this pool to be efficent to download updates, just by sending diff requests every time a new node is connected.
Now, when a reciever wants something, it is given a random node it must connect to. How to make it really random? We use a mathematical formula (I haven't thought about it yet) that relates his public address to the obtained hash of the full pool. Users trying to connect to a node which is not assigned are banned from the pool.
Nodes that doesn't transmit anything or transmit something which is not requested are banned from the pool and they can't earn nothing.
Recievers and nodes check that the node before it in the chain is acting correctly. If not, it marks that node "banned" in the pool, and then other nodes comes and verify that is true by checking what was solicited and what was served by the conflicting node. If it is true that the node is trying to scam, then the node is marked banned permanently (or for some period of time). If it is false that the node is not trying to scam, then the denouncing node is marked as banned.

Well, and how this relates to a block chain? I have yet to think it, but I'm thinking that every update to the pool could represent a new block. We can make the blockchain space-efficent by only storing changes from previus blocks. We could also protect IPs in some way so to make this fully anonymous, and I have to think about this too.

I'm wondering how your Tornet and  Proof-of-Stake ideas could be related to this.

[bytemaster]

You cannot verify bandwidth sharing in a global money supply.   You need long lived nodes with reputation and credit.   Each node must issue its own money and then trade these credits on automated markets. 

There is no block chain in this model.  You really need a ripple like model for the nodes but I suspect it will be too inefficient.   

I spent months designing tornet to find a workable economic model and you would do well to understand my design as a starting point for improvement.


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[liberman]

Why mine if we can use Proof of Stake?

Can we apply this to a non-mining blockchain like wecoins, where money supply comes from bandwidth sharing and other services?

[bytemaster]

Why mine if we can use Proof of Stake?

[phoenix]

I think there should be relatively equal rewards for mining and writing papers, as long as the mining is actually helping the network. If the mining was just POW, without accounting for network contributions, then I would say that rewards should just be for writing papers.

[liberman]

Wonderful!

We not only need programmers, also managers, legal advisers, thinkers, writers, etc.

I' still very concerned about how your going to raise capital but anyways, not really a major concern for myself, setup and prove me wrong.

I'm thinking several ways. The original idea is to give capital (MediaCoins) to programmers. But still there will be other people who will not program/design but help the project itself. How to pay them? One way is by ProtoMediaShares, you can get in charge of that part if you want.
Another way, instead of mining, is to reserve a position between programmers, to those whose work cannot be measured by the amount of code/art they do, but more kind of management, studying, thinking, promoting. If we agree with this, I can create a new github repository only for papers, and the people contributing in that repository would receive their shares too. Legal advisers can publish their legal comments there. Managers/marketers  will publish their ideas there, too. There could be even spokesmans, paid in function of their videos/conferences. I will be moderating the repository to avoid abuses.
We can measure shares in proportion of the number of lines written, and we can also vote to give more shares to one specific area if we think it is more important.

Once the project is launched, new capital (money supply) is earned by sharing bandwidth and moderation, and all of this would be archived. This will be the equivalent of mining, but with real intrinsic value. The system can promote itself, because the first week everybody will enter the system to start sharing content in order to win cheap coins. I think this is just great! We can design the system such as the first week/month the difficulty of earning coins is low, and after that it returns to normal. Finally we can "mine" doing something useful.

If we are not able to agree with that, we can still return to your original idea of ProtoMediaShares. Proportion would be 10% to programmers and 2.5% to protoshares. We can negotiate that proportion.

So, the question now is for those with no programming skills: do you prefer to mine, or do you prefer direct payment for the papers you write?

[fav]

wow, certainly a great idea. following this thread

[quickbit]

Interesting! Hope this can implemented. I will support.


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[soniq]

Not sure how I can help? sent you a PM

[devilfish]

I' still very concerned about how your going to raise capital but anyways, not really a major concern for myself, setup and prove me wrong.

[liberman]

I'm in contact with some GNUnet programmers, and there is a posibility that this project could be followed by the GNU organization itself.

We need to move forward. Next days will be critical. Please contact us at #wetube on freenode.