Author Topic: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community  (Read 7794 times)

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Offline Ander

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2014, 07:02:29 am »
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?
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Offline lovejoy

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2014, 07:15:49 am »

A guiding principle is reciprocity. You have to give to receive in nature. If you plant a million seeds it might cost you time but it could yield a bounty of crops in the future.

I don't know how many people here believe in God but whether you do or you don't the earth we have is a gift. If you give to it you can get more from it in the future. A community works in a similar way where if you want to grow it you have to give resources to it so that in the future you can rely on it's gifts.

Let's look at what we have or could have:

1) Decentralized trust with privacy. We can trust each other enforced by algorithmic social measures instead of legal.

2) Decentralized reputation with privacy. We will know from experience how trustworthy we can all be in a way which can be quantifiable. The more "Big Data" we collect the more accurate our measurements will become and once again with algorithmic enforcement the scammer has to deal with the self enforcing contract.

3) Decentralized decision making with privacy. If we can trust each other and know each other's reputation then we become like a society of friends. We can trade with each other and make big important decisions while maintaining pseudo-anonymity (privacy).

On top of this we can organize ourselves into legal structures which promote and encourage trust/reputation. Basically the legal structures only really would have to exist to supplement the algorithmic social structures. The problems come when we speak in a language which attracts enforcement entities that our community does not need or want.

So we have to use the language which makes sense for what our community is trying to be. Our community will develop algorithms which will measure trust and reputation well enough that sooner or later there will not be a need for contracts. Just someone's word will be enough because their reputation will be their most important asset.

This means it will be in their own best interest to maintain that reputation. The threat of prison never really stopped people from scamming each other but if you wonder why everyone isn't a scammer it's because some people care more about their reputation and others don't. So by keeping score of how much each person cares about the community or how much each person gives back you can form legal structures around that data formula.

Decentralized trust and reputation are very powerful and I think so far most of the world underestimates how powerful. If we had those two components then all the institutions and legal enforcers set up wouldn't be necessary.

 +5% +5% +5%

Yes!

As with this:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.msg140010#msg140010

Offline thazel72

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2014, 07:28:05 am »
I would say that the definition of a stakeholder fits well with what BM is talking about. The definition and application of stakeholder almost perfectly align with the overall view of the community.

A corporate stakeholder can affect or be affected by the actions of a business as a whole. The stakeholder concept was first used in a 1963 internal memorandum at the Stanford Research Institute. It defined stakeholders as "those groups without whose support the organization would cease to exist."

Stakeholders:Stakeholder's concerns: Applications
Government - taxation, VAT, legislation, employment, truthful reporting, diversity, legalities, externalities.
Employee - rates of pay, job security, compensation, respect, truthful communication.
Customers - value, quality, customer care, ethical products.
Suppliers - providers of products and services used in the end product for the customer, equitable business opportunities.
Creditors - credit score, new contracts, liquidity.
Community - jobs, involvement, environmental protection, shares, truthful communication.
Trade Unions - quality, worker protection, jobs.
Owner(s) -profitability, longevity, market share, market standing, succession planning, raising capital, growth, social goals.
Investors   return on investment, income.

Offline cube

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2014, 07:28:53 am »
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%
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Offline Frodo

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2014, 07:41:46 am »
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

Lol made my day.
But I agree the company metaphor was working great and I would like to use it further if it is some how possible.

Offline luckybit

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2014, 07:44:22 am »
I would say that the definition of a stakeholder fits well with what BM is talking about. The definition and application of stakeholder almost perfectly align with the overall view of the community.

A corporate stakeholder can affect or be affected by the actions of a business as a whole. The stakeholder concept was first used in a 1963 internal memorandum at the Stanford Research Institute. It defined stakeholders as "those groups without whose support the organization would cease to exist."

Stakeholders:Stakeholder's concerns: Applications
Government - taxation, VAT, legislation, employment, truthful reporting, diversity, legalities, externalities.
Employee - rates of pay, job security, compensation, respect, truthful communication.
Customers - value, quality, customer care, ethical products.
Suppliers - providers of products and services used in the end product for the customer, equitable business opportunities.
Creditors - credit score, new contracts, liquidity.
Community - jobs, involvement, environmental protection, shares, truthful communication.
Trade Unions - quality, worker protection, jobs.
Owner(s) -profitability, longevity, market share, market standing, succession planning, raising capital, growth, social goals.
Investors   return on investment, income.

Stakeholder is a viable alternative to shareholder. Of course we are stakeholders but what we hold a stake in is a decentralized application.

So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

Lol made my day.
But I agree the company metaphor was working great and I would like to use it further if it is some how possible.

You can use it but it shouldn't be in official documents. The Bitshares toolkit, GUI, website, shouldn't call it a company anymore because it's just an application.

Some people don't know the difference between metaphor and literal. Just look at the bible and see how people interpret that any way they desire to make their case.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 07:46:23 am by luckybit »
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julian1

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2014, 08:05:24 am »
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares' applications are about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a community website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS) and anonymously (TITAN), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, or create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses and less compliance hassle. How will the profound implications and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread to these groups?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism within its community.

No easy answers here for sure - but, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 09:26:42 am by julian1 »

Offline House

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2014, 08:26:21 am »
a) I like 'BitShare' (a bit to share)

2) The BitShare Currencies/DAC's are a *consequence* of the community not a *purpose*

iii) The metaphors are so ingrained in our phsyche because of the troubled world we live in... lets find some new terms, a new means to communicate ideas, that are not based on 'old world' terminology.

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.
+5%

It is telling, reading the posts, as to where we as individuals are focused. The default is most powerful, but the world is changing, are we not pioneers, the engineers of our own future. It may take sometime and many checks on our vernacular to galvanize the 'newspeak' (thanks George) required to convey our message.
I'm exploding with excitement at what we have here. With leadership like this, I am at peace with my choice.

The world is cyclical... Atoms are round, planets are round, history repeats itself... As Bytemaster (and team) has just illustrated, technological advancement is leading us back to eachother. Will it take this generation or the next ... The choice is ours
                     
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Offline luckybit

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2014, 09:00:19 am »
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares is really about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisiticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses. How does the profound qualities  and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread in this context?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism amongst its community.

To me, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.

That is why you as a member of the community should personally explain to different demographics using the best terminology for that demographic.

But it does not mean that the website and official speech should use inaccurate explanations just because it helps market to a niche demographic. The truth is that Bitshares is just a decentralized application for a decentralized autonomous community.

Until you or anyone else claiming we should target financial institutions are prepared to set up a cooperative there is no way to partner with them anyway because we don't legally exist. I suggest that we form a Bitshares Cooperative and use that cooperative to offer financial services legally by forming partnerships with the necessary financial entities.
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Offline luckybit

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2014, 09:15:09 am »
a) I like 'BitShare' (a bit to share)

2) The BitShare Currencies/DAC's are a *consequence* of the community not a *purpose*

iii) The metaphors are so ingrained in our phsyche because of the troubled world we live in... lets find some new terms, a new means to communicate ideas, that are not based on 'old world' terminology.

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.
+5%

It is telling, reading the posts, as to where we as individuals are focused. The default is most powerful, but the world is changing, are we not pioneers, the engineers of our own future. It may take sometime and many checks on our vernacular to galvanize the 'newspeak' (thanks George) required to convey our message.
I'm exploding with excitement at what we have here. With leadership like this, I am at peace with my choice.

The world is cyclical... Atoms are round, planets are round, history repeats itself... As Bytemaster (and team) has just illustrated, technological advancement is leading us back to eachother. Will it take this generation or the next ... The choice is ours
                     
[...knock knock...] :o Q: do you open the door or pretend your not home?

When the Internet was invented a lot of brand new terminology had to be put in place. A new language had to be invented to explain precisely what it all was.
Quote
The working paper No. 179, 1994, of the Center for Coordination Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology describes the concept as follows: "The information superhighway directly connects millions of people, each both a consumer of information and a potential provider. (...) Most predictions about commercial opportunities on the information superhighway focus on the provision of information products, such as video on demand, and on new sales outlets for physical products, as with home shopping. (...) The information superhighway brings together millions of individuals who could exchange information with one another. Any conception of a traditional market for making beneficial exchanges, such as an agricultural market or trading pit, or any system where individuals respond to posted prices on a computer screen is woefully inadequate for the extremely large number of often complex trades that will be required."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_superhighway

Some people tried to call it the information super-highway. Some people decided to cling to familiar ways of describing the technology. As a result the technology became very centralized, inefficient, and peer to peer didn't exist in the lexicon for a long time. Words do matter and it's more important that we have our own language first before we dumb our speech down to teach everyone else.

What about cyberspace?
Quote
Cyberspace is "the notional environment in which communication over computer networks occurs."[1] The term was first used in science fiction and cinema in the 1980s, was adopted by computer professionals and became a household term in the 1990s. During this period, the uses of the internet, networking, and digital communication were all growing dramatically and the term "cyberspace" was able to represent the many new ideas and phenomena that were emerging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberspace

Or the world wide web?

Quote
The World Wide Web (abbreviated as WWW or W3,[1] commonly known as the Web) is a system of interlinked hypertext documents that are accessed via the Internet. With a web browser, one can view web pages that may contain text, images, videos, and other multimedia and navigate between them via hyperlinks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

To understand truly what we are doing we need to start using our own language, inventing our own words carefully so they invoke a good frame and inspire the imagination. When you're inventing a completely new industry and technology you have to understand that you have the responsibility to coin the new phrases, invent the new words, and most of the time it's better not to base it on anything else.

So how about we begin the process of carefully creating new words which describe human interaction with the DAC, in a way which doesn't bring in old concepts or old frames. If people have a difficult time learning our buzzwords it's too bad. We had to learn the buzzwords to know how to use the Internet back in the day and it's no different now.
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Offline GaltReport

Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2014, 10:35:47 am »
Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.

Yes!
There was a message. Pretty powerful one, indeed!

Message, Vision, Idea!

In which all of us believe(d), more or less; some sooner, some later; some totally, some only in the core principals;

Now all of a sudden comes this - lets build Bla-bla Bla-bla Community - not only totally uninspiring, but already accomplished!
We do have a community. No need to build one with some adjectives in front of it.

And no, I do not believe we have achieved our goal if we force a half-a** constitution on the king,




If we want a republic there should be no king!

If we want better business model(s) for our kids, we should not hide behind false pretenses that this is not a business![/b]

 +5% for all of this.

Offline Thom

Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2014, 03:48:06 pm »
A most excellent discussion. I waited quite awhile last night after I made my last post for others to contribute, but after 30 - 45 minutes gave up & went to bed. I suspect after BM got home, put the kids to bed etc. he reentered the thread, and offered some info why he is changing the course of the ship. Good to know. I really like this thread, but I must depart for other commitments. Here are a couple of posts that capture what my gut / intuition is telling me, but I am open to the sentiments expressed very articulately by luckybit too. I'll revisit this later.

Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.

Yes!
There was a message. Pretty powerful one, indeed!

Message, Vision, Idea!

In which all of us believe(d), more or less; some sooner, some later; some totally, some only in the core principals;

Now all of a sudden comes this - lets build Bla-bla Bla-bla Community - not only totally uninspiring, but already accomplished!
We do have a community. No need to build one with some adjectives in front of it.

And no, I do not believe we have achieved our goal if we force a half-a** constitution on the king,

If we want a republic there should be no king!

If we want better business model(s) for our kids, we should not hide behind false pretenses that this is not a business!

So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares' applications are about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a community website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS) and anonymously (TITAN), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, or create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses and less compliance hassle. How will the profound implications and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread to these groups?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism within its community.

No easy answers here for sure - but, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.
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Offline Ander

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Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2014, 04:09:31 pm »
Guess I was right to feel bad about this post, another 20% drop today.

Congrats on killing Bitshares.

Who will be left in the "community" when bitshares is below 1 cent?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2014, 04:11:33 pm »
Guess I was right to feel bad about this post, another 20% drop today.

Congrats on killing Bitshares.

Who will be left in the "community" when bitshares is below 1 cent?

I doubt this post was the cause of the 20% drop...
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Offline GaltReport

Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2014, 04:22:17 pm »
BM made another good post (not that this one was bad or anything...:) ) explaining the reasoning and some good guidelines on use of the "company" metaphor.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10767.msg141723#msg141723