Author Topic: The Case for Delegates as Multi-Person Cooperatives  (Read 10626 times)

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Offline Method-X

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Rune found BitShares through the AMA I did in /r/BitcoinMarkets. I don't think his intentions are bad. He strikes me as being genuinely passionate about this technology and wants to see it reach its potential. Until I see otherwise, I support him.

Offline Rune

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Secret meetings should be outlawed in a Decentralized Autonomous Community.  :)

I principally agree, but it would be impossible to enforce. Personal communication can and should be 100% private, but professional communication should preferably be as transparent and non-secret as possible (with the option of the delegates to remain pseudonomous I don't think it would be privacy invasion).

The next best thing, IMO, is to at least have a social consensus of 1 delegate = 1 human. Then it will be possible to detect if there is secret communication between delegates that e.g. are working together on the same project, because it should be easiest for them to communicate in the DAC framework that they are both active members of (if we observe collaboration but no such communication, then we can assume they are secretly communicating).

Again, obviously secret communication can never be prevented, but large secret power/trust structures can be made much more difficult to construct.

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Secret...meetings....  but I digress...


Secret meetings are happening continuously and involve practically everyone nowadays. They are normal.

Secret meetings should be outlawed in a Decentralized Autonomous Community.  :)


Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.

Wait now. How did my former self came in this conversation? I neither proposed a secret club nor was offered to join one. That is pretty hostile to randomly put me in any discussion ( to say nothing about labeling me) just because you feel like it.

On that note I officially state that I take you and your community projects off of my donations list for being too hostile! I will redirect all funds to xeroc community effort only, from now on!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 04:32:09 pm by tonyk2 »

Offline nomoreheroes7

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Also I own around 10 million BTS that I got from running my business and investing everything into bitcoin before the bubbles. That's all I have, so it's nowhere near "thousands" of BTC.

Holy hell that's a lot of BTS. I thought I had a decent amount, too...feel so small.  :(

Offline toast

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Secret...meetings....  but I digress...


Secret meetings are happening continuously and involve practically everyone nowadays. They are normal.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline Rune

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So at first I was a bit disheartened that I seem to give off a super creepy/dishonest vibe to everyone I interact with here... But at least I'm getting lots of attention!

Please don't let your suspicions about me make you decide that multi-people delegates are good, though. Single human delegates will always have the same opportunities to work together, the only difference being that their relationships are transparent. It will not be any easier to manipulate a group of delegates than it will be to manipulate a group-delegate.

copy pasting from my other post:

I'm shocked, but also slightly amused it has come to this, it seems I overestimated the cunning of you humans. My plan might have been foiled for now, but I shall return. Soon I shall rule all!!!

Okay jokes aside, you do remember that I basically gave up on the "secret political party" the very next day. The day I got the idea was the day that I first realized the true potential of bitshares. As I have written elsewhere, I'm convinced that this DAC will eventually grow to own all assets on the planet, and basically become the framework through which humanity will control its actions on a macro scale. My first thought was that such an entity would be absurdly dangerous if it somehow become corrupted along the way and began to pursue profit with no regards for anything else. One of those scenarios was the scenario that Stan mentioned in mumble the day before: if a bank offered to partner with us globally in return for getting sharedropped so they owned 50% of the stake. At first I thought that was something that could actually plausibly happen and would result in the total corruption of the DAC and basically turn in it into a tool of evil. That's why I thought a "greenpeace" group within it would be necessary to mount massive campaigns against any such corruption, and even if possible somehow retain the tools to kill off the DAC rather than "let it fall into the enemies hands". The fact that I wanted it to be "secret" in the beginning was simply because I wanted to figure out if there was actually people interested in a project like that. I was brand new to the forum and didn't know anyones intentions or behaviour here. I'd obviously not want to jump onto the board as a new guy and announce this hippie-greenpeace political movement and then have everyone ignore it or attack it.

Obviously, the next day I realized that the corruption risk of the DAC is much lower than I initially thought, since delegates are not really politicians, but rather employees, and more importantly that pretty much everyone of the current stakeholders are not primarily profit-motivated and would most likely not support a bank takeover.

I stand by the fact that whoever controls the framework of communications in the DAC, are and will be the most powerful people. That's why I went to talk to fuzzy first - I needed to figure out if he was prone to corruption or not, and if he was willing to actively fight it. I guess it's a big advantage that he has the integrity to disclose basically any private conversation that he considers to be shady or with dishonest intentions... Even if that means that people on this forum will now think I'm some behind-the-scenes evil mastermind.

It doesn't really matter to me in the long run. I have secured my stake, and I'm certain to become obscenely rich off all this. Anything I've done beyond that has simply been an attempt to help the DAC flesh out its workings from the beginning - once it gets off the ground and the ball gets rolling, the ideas and opinions of individual people will not matter much anymore, as in the long run capital will find its way to whoever are the best at allocating it profitably.

Also I own around 10 million BTS that I got from running my business and investing everything into bitcoin before the bubbles. That's all I have, so it's nowhere near "thousands" of BTC.

Edit: Also why are people suddenly targeting methodX?? I have literally not interacted with him beyond posts on this forum and a few PM's. Please don't turn this into some witch hunt.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 03:27:37 pm by Rune »

Offline xeroc

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My work helping organize community discussions, however, will continue because I am certain that there needs to be a historical record of the events that take place here. 

Think Bigger Pinky.  This is not just crypto"currency"---it is a movement. THIS IS GALTS GULCH!
People will do well to remind themselves the factors that brought them here and the corruption that created such a huge vaccuum that so many flocked to crypto in the first place.  We have a chance to set the world right.  Let's not let virtual tokens get in the way of what really matters...our "slightly less than arms-length" relationships :P
Inspiring post!  +5%

Offline fuzzy

Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.
I also think we should be careful about judging people's intent too quickly. Sometimes there can be misunderstandings or disagreements about ideas that seem to turn personal.

I've never talked to Rune and haven't followed all his posts but his posts didn't jump out as malicious to me.  That being said, I can understand others may have experiences & info I don't so it is fine to share.

There is only one way to take this: 



Now lets just say for a moment that this hypothetical guy goes into the Mumble server and tells the Community Event Organizer (CEO)(Not Community Manager) that he is going to be the "Most Powerful Person in Bitshares".  Let's also say that he tells the CEO that he needs to quit his day job and work full time, run a delegate and get it into power.  Then let's say he asks this CEO to speak privately with him after a Mumble Hangout...where he tells the "CEO" of his plans to advocate complete transparency of funds for everyone's accounts under the pretext of honesty and transparency (so he can identify the largest account holders).  Now let's imagine this person saying "I know you aren't going to like this fuzz, but we need to get a group of people in charge of the largest BitShares accounts and form a power block" with them.  We will all have to have secret meetings....

Secret...meetings....  but I digress...

As a matter of fact, it seems even Rune agrees with this! 

Regarding the insider club, you're right that it's a bad thing, but consider that right now the insider club is I3 with no transparency at all. I would prefer to have absolute transparency with nothing being hidden from anyone with no barriers to entry whatsoever, and I hope we can implement that once we have achieved significant network effect. Right now it seems that I3 employees thinks it is vital to keep a lot of information secret to avoid having it stolen by competitors. I trust their judgement in this regard, even if I don't like it, and that is why I proposed the "secret insider club" of large stakeholders to be able to share this sensitive information, so that there at least are people independent from the developers who are able to hear it and report their sentiments to the broader community.

I guess delegates could also be used for this regard, but I suspect that delegates will devolve into politics and we would then be stuck with this secret insider club political elite that I think could go really bad.

Check the link if you want to read all of the thread and see the entire context :)
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10344.msg136470#msg136470
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 01:56:42 pm by fuzzy »
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ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline fuzzy

Drama?  Or someones genuine concern over someone telling him to quit his job, join a secret alliance of big stake holders and close the open forum he built to protect this community?

Call it what you wish, it still doesnt change facts...

Of course if you guys would have preferred I join this alliance or keep quiet while Rune continues to make attempts to gain trust in the community while openly telling me of his intentions...then so be it. 

Also as a note to the arms length relationships...this his not how you build a viral network effect.  It requires something deeper.

By Drama I mean all that you related, not that you are making things needlessly dramatic. :)

By and large though it just reinforces in me my non-trust of virtually everyone. I try not to base relationships on high-levels of trust.  I really only have different levels of non-trust, be it my own family or the pet dog.  In fact, anytime some asks me to trust them, I immediately put up my guard because they seem to want me to lower it...for some reason. 

By arms length I just mean, matter of fact...based on facts and knowledge of each persons actions and interests.  Not based on "trust".  As a result, I try to avoid asking anyone to trust me.

Quote
By and large though it just reinforces in me my non-trust of virtually everyone.
  ...thank you for making me laugh Galt.  People can be trusted, but we have to make them prove themselves.  And by proving themselves...I do not mean pouring honey in our ears.

What little power that I have in this community was given by ALL of you--trusting me.  I have no intention of ever letting that trust fail you or anyone else who has paid their dues and stands here today as one of the founding members of this Decentralized Autonomous Community (thank you for that post btw, BM--you invoked the spirit George Washington, hell..yeh.).  The Mumble will continue to be Open Forum.  However, I am seriously considering giving "power" of Beyond Bitcoin's forum moderation to someone else I trust (more on that at another time).  My work helping organize community discussions, however, will continue because I am certain that there needs to be a historical record of the events that take place here. 

Think Bigger Pinky.  This is not just crypto"currency"---it is a movement. THIS IS GALTS GULCH!
People will do well to remind themselves the factors that brought them here and the corruption that created such a huge vaccuum that so many flocked to crypto in the first place.  We have a chance to set the world right.  Let's not let virtual tokens get in the way of what really matters...our "slightly less than arms-length" relationships :P 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 01:51:03 pm by fuzzy »
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ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline Agent86

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Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.
I also think we should be careful about judging people's intent too quickly. Sometimes there can be misunderstandings or disagreements about ideas that seem to turn personal.

I've never talked to Rune and haven't followed all his posts but his posts didn't jump out as malicious to me.  That being said, I can understand others may have experiences & info I don't so it is fine to share.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 01:46:26 pm by Agent86 »

Offline GaltReport

Drama?  Or someones genuine concern over someone telling him to quit his job, join a secret alliance of big stake holders and close the open forum he built to protect this community?

Call it what you wish, it still doesnt change facts...

Of course if you guys would have preferred I join this alliance or keep quiet while Rune continues to make attempts to gain trust in the community while openly telling me of his intentions...then so be it. 

Also as a note to the arms length relationships...this his not how you build a viral network effect.  It requires something deeper.

By Drama I mean all that you related, not that you are making things needlessly dramatic. :)

By and large though it just reinforces in me my non-trust of virtually everyone. I try not to base relationships on high-levels of trust.  I really only have different levels of non-trust, be it my own family or the pet dog.  In fact, anytime some asks me to trust them, I immediately put up my guard because they seem to want me to lower it...for some reason. 

By arms length I just mean, matter of fact...based on facts and knowledge of each persons actions and interests.  "Spock like".  Not based on "trust".  As a result, I try to avoid asking anyone to trust me.

Edit: BTW, BM has earned the 2nd highest level of non-trust that I have.  ;)  (This is positive on my scale)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 01:57:54 pm by GaltReport »

Offline xeroc

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Xeroc.  I never intended to come across as frustrared with you (or you either, C).  I know for a fact, though, you were there for the second time I met with him (after the last hangout). I am simply saying you guys sometimes confuse niceness and charm with trustworthiness.  The bigger this gets, the more eloquent will be the players....

This is a rule, not an exception.  Those who do not see it are putting everyone at risk by making dissent of such tactics "unpopular". 
You are probably right about this .. Most of the time I am to naive about most things ..
And I thank you (really) for reminding me about it ...

It is pretty difficult to read between the lines and guess about the intentions someone might have .. or might not ..
I agree with you that our friend seems to be pretty inconsistent about openness, trust, and secrecy .. But I not necessarily see his intension to harm the community or the project ... No needs to be trusted .. not me, nor Rune, nor fuzz .. maybe BM to not mess with the code/blockchain .. but that's about it ..
There's no need for trust!

However, there is the need for open discussions about things that are (mildly spoken) "odd". And I thank you, fuzz, for being the guy to have the courage to take that step ..
The task of the community, as I see it, is to give the stakeholders hints and information about what to consider when voting (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10735.0)

My personal conclusion from this is:
Not be shortsighted and approve delegates on first sight because they seem nice
(be ensured that was not the case before and will not be the case after this discussion)

Offline fuzzy

Drama?  Or someones genuine concern over someone telling him to quit his job, join a secret alliance of big stake holders and close the open forum he built to protect this community?

Call it what you wish, it still doesnt change facts...

Of course if you guys would have preferred I join this alliance or keep quiet while Rune continues to make attempts to gain trust in the community while openly telling me of his intentions...then so be it. 

Also as a note to the arms length relationships...this his not how you build a viral network effect.  It requires something deeper.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 01:25:05 pm by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline GaltReport

Wow, so much drama.  Maybe people need to take  a step back and try to have an "arms length relationship" with Bitshares and other community members.

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/arm-s-length-relationship

More matter of fact, business-like, less personal.

Offline fuzzy

Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.
+5%

Maybe I made my personal position no clear yet .. but I am all for having a group of people behind a SINGLE delegate .. What I am against is a set of delegates that are conspiring in a secret group

Xeroc.  I never intended to come across as frustrared with you (or you either, C).  I know for a fact, though, you were there for the second time I met with him (after the last hangout).  I am simply saying you guys sometimes confuse niceness and charm with trustworthiness.  The bigger this gets, the more eloquent will be the players....

This is a rule, not an exception.  Those who do not see it are putting eveyone at risk by making dissent of such tactics "unpopular". 

Dan was right when he pondered whether bitcoin had become the antithesis of what it was meant to be.  This is not a tribal diatribe but a statement born of fact...
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D