Author Topic: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?  (Read 18580 times)

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Offline Ander

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Buying on margin would either be the best or worst decision of your life, depending on whether you got margin called before BTS started going up.

Personally I wouldnt do it because if you buy entirely with your own money, you can hold as long as it takes and you can never lose your BTS.  If you buy on margin you might lose it all and then feel horrible when it went up later on.


So my answer to this poll would be: No, because margin is too risky.  I have a lot of confidence in the bitshares team that we are going higher in the long term, but that doesnt mean it is impossible for it to go down more.  All it takes for it to go down is for someone with a ton of shares to decide to dump.  That can happen in the short term, even if Bitshares later surpasses bitocin and becomes the #1 crypto.


The bitshares chart looks like bitcoin's chart to me, but 1 month delayed.
We bottomed at the start of november, not october.
We went up, but then down again.  I think we now make a higher low (above .084 CNY).  Just like bitcoin's bottom in the low 300s two weeks ago. 


My goal is just to get as many shares as possible before the marketing campaign starts.  I am buying 2 bitcoin worth every two weeks, no matter what, until we go higher. 
I have stopped buying everything that I can: coffees, meals out, games, etc.   Absolutely no non essential expenses, just put absolutely every possible dollar into bitshares right now.

But no margin.  Margin can be the end of all of your dreams.
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Offline liondani

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the easy answer is "no"...
but the idea to buy bitUSD cheap is interesting to minimize the risk...

another factor is if you have a family ...you can take more risks if you don't have one...

is shorting bitUSD not  something like a credit/loan?  I mean I would short bitUSD with my existent BTS before taking a loan to buy BTS

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:32:49 pm by liondani »

Offline Mysto

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While I do strongly believe in BTS and think some of these ideas could change the world that is no guarantee of success. Just because an idea is genius does not mean it will take off. Maybe the timing is wrong, maybe someone else with more power and influence will steal it, etc. At this point I would consider BTS a penny stock and I would never take out margin to invest in a penny stock no matter how much I thought I could make or how good the company is. And I lean towards the risky side.

sumantso

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1009990 BTS sold in a single order at Btc38 bringing price down to 0.103. Safe to say that one is not going to take a loan ina  hurry.

Offline infovortice2013

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mmm im thinking about do this sell or ask for credit with my car to go all in bts-pts. Happily for just now i didnt do it.

remember its a high risk invest.

but knowing dev team and work done until know ---- knowing that maybe end of year its ready final bts wallet  --- knowing now bts is (vote,dns,X) 3x1 sound like a christmas sale !!! --- knowing improved sustainability of superDAC

who is crazy ? people that ask for credit to invest or people that didnt ?
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Offline bytemaster

Buying bit usd cheap is enough to cover almost any loan interest when you sell it back at the feed
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Offline bitmeat

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Then there is borrowing from your own retirement plan, where you pay the interest to yourself. Ha! BTS pays interest to your retirement account, who would've thought?

Offline Riverhead

There are many ways to borrow. It doesn't have to be a straight loan from the bank. Those are usually really expensive if they're not secured by the asset the loan is intended for (car, house, etc).


If you want to live on the edge take a large cash advance on one of those 0% card offers and hope BTS rises enough in the next 12 to 18 months to pay back the card and the "transaction fee"; usually about 3% - 5%.


I did something similar when mining was big. Bought most of my equipment on a 0% card with the plan that the mining revenue would cover the loan before the 0% period ended. It worked, but barely. Was a squeaker :).


I have one credit card that's at 5.24%. I carry a balance on that because I feel "borrowing" money at 5.24% is relatively cheap compared to my confidence in BTS. It's not a huge balance, I could pay it off easily with a portion of my BTS investment (I bought in at $0.009) so I'll let it ride and see where the marketing push gets us.


Leverage can be a powerful thing when used responsibly.


Offline graffenwalder

There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

You are just talking about a different loan structure.  A loan is borrowing money and paying interest to the lender.  Using margin is borrowing money to buy an investment.  It's simple.  One does not have to put up their house as collateral to borrow money.

BitAssets pay interest. In theory what would stop Jimmy from borrowing money from a bank and then buying the BitAsset then using the interest from the BitAsset to pay the interest on the loan?

In theory I don't see why this would be wrong ethically or practically if the BitAssets paid enough in interest for it to pay off the loan. If the bank were to say pay it all back in full then the BitAsset could literally track exactly in BitUSD to the loan so it's not like the money can poof disappear.
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more
Ah great, everybody loves a good ponzi

So if you do it as a business owner it's just investing in your own business but if you invest in a decentralized business equivalent then it's a ponzi?

I never thought I would see that attitude in this community. As long as the loan can be paid back the banks shouldn't care. As long as you don't lose the money then you shouldn't care. How would you lose the money on an interest paying BitUSD?
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Offline luckybit

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There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

You are just talking about a different loan structure.  A loan is borrowing money and paying interest to the lender.  Using margin is borrowing money to buy an investment.  It's simple.  One does not have to put up their house as collateral to borrow money.

BitAssets pay interest. In theory what would stop Jimmy from borrowing money from a bank and then buying the BitAsset then using the interest from the BitAsset to pay the interest on the loan?

In theory I don't see why this would be wrong ethically or practically if the BitAssets paid enough in interest for it to pay off the loan interest. If the bank were to say pay it all back in full then the BitAsset could literally track exactly in BitUSD to the loan so it's not like the money can poof disappear.
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more
Ah great, everybody loves a good ponzi

So if you do it as a business owner it's just investing in your own business but if you invest in a decentralized business equivalent then it's a ponzi?

I never thought I would see that attitude in this community. As long as the loan can be paid back the banks shouldn't care. As long as you don't lose the money then you shouldn't care. How would you lose the money on an interest paying BitUSD?

« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 01:23:37 pm by luckybit »
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Offline JakeThePanda

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There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

You are just talking about a different loan structure.  A loan is borrowing money and paying interest to the lender.  Using margin is borrowing money to buy an investment.  It's simple.  One does not have to put up their house as collateral to borrow money.

Offline graffenwalder

well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more
Ah great, everybody loves a good ponzi

Offline graffenwalder

There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

Offline luckybit

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well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more attractive the bucket gets and then other people start putting money into the bucket.

The interesting feature of Bitshares is that you have BitUSD. So if you took out a $30,000 loan to buy BitUSD and just hold it in BitUSD until after people dump the price down then you'll end up with  your money back plus BTS. If that doesn't happen and it kickstarts the Bitshares price up to $1 then whatever BTS you were holding before you took out the loan would be worth a lot more money.

Tell me how you can lose here?
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

Yes, definitely this.

That is irrational. People take out loans all the time for college or to buy houses. Why not to buy BTS?

Do you have enough faith in the protocol to believe the price will go up from here? If you do then why not make a margin trade?
It's always against bank policy to use loan to invest in financial product .

Even if you can return it , it would leave a nasty credit report , because the use of loan won't match the financial records .

The purpose of this poll and post was to try to find out just how confident the community really is that the price of BTS will reach $1. If you really think it will reach $1 then what stops you from taking out a loan and buying 1 million BTS? If you don't think it will reach $1 or you have several rational reasons why it's too risky to make the bet I'd like to hear that.

But just saying you wouldn't do it because it's somehow always incorrect is irrational. It's like saying it's always incorrect to take out loans when most people take out loans to make investments whether it is to buy a house they think will be worth more in the future, a college education they think will get them a high paying job, or a business they think will make them a millionaire.

Bitshares is like that startup which could make you into a millonaire if you put enough money into it. Why not go for broke? Bad credit?

Because the best protocol doesn't necessarily mean the adoption of bitshares.  With a media blackout from Bitcoin...
People like Counterparty, Ethereum, Ripple, Nubits...we are seeing a new "elite" creeping in who will form alliances against projects with philosophies like bitshares.  BitShares is the BEST protocol, but that doesn't mean these institutions will not just steal certain aspects and change the shareholder voting, coupled with a huge marketing campaign through the established crypto channels (and in the case of Ethereum/Bitcoin, the "alternative" media channels) to make users feel good and drown out the voices of concern. 

Taking out a loan right now...as confident as I am in the tech, is not a good idea.  The best thing to would be to take out a loan and diversify within the DPOS ecosystem...unfortunately we have a real community divide on that one--where many see clones as taking away from their piece of the pie.  Of course, most of the opponents somehow, oddly, were drawn to this ecosystem by the idea of having a stake in multiple DACs, so I am confused by this one. 

In summary, our community is still evolving and figuring out what this tech means to us.  We are constantly traveling against stiff headwinds...and our competitors are able to steal our toolkit  without ever being called out in a way that reaches a large user-base.  These are the reasons I would not take out a loan to buy bitshares.


The reason Bitcoin was risky to take out a loan for was the volatility. Bitshares doesn't actually have much volatility so what is the risk in taking out as big of a loan as you can to buy BitUSD?

Then you hold the BitUSD for a period of weeks or months until the price of BTS decreases. If the price decreases you can buy even more BTS and if the price increases then you might have less but if you trade right why wouldn't you end up with more BTS and still have the BitUSD to pay off the loan?

It's risky and maybe not the thing to do if you're not 100% willing to take a leap of faith but I do think you can at least make an argument for doing it. I think you can actually sort of look at this poll as an indicator of the likelihood that BTS will reach $1.

If people believe in it enough in the core community to take out loans for it then that is the reason to believe in BTS as a person who doesn't have any. It's the level of commitment and risk that the current community takes that can give you confidence so if everyone says they wouldn't take out a loan for BTS then maybe they don't really think the price is going up and that means it might be a good time to wait for some people to dump their shares as this is a bear market.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 12:54:59 pm by luckybit »
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Offline JakeThePanda

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People take out loans for investments all the time, they are called margin accounts. ;)