Author Topic: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?  (Read 6450 times)

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Offline luckybit

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Considering the fact that marketing hasn't kicked in yet and the price is dropping is now a good time to buy as much as possible?

Would any of you take out a loan to buy BTS?
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Offline graffenwalder

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2014, 11:10:51 am »
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

Offline Frodo

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2014, 11:12:36 am »
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

Yes, definitely this.

Offline cube

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 11:14:50 am »
Crypto-investment is a high risk one. You will never know how the project turns out and what happen to dear regulators.  Invest at your risk-comfort level.
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2014, 11:23:45 am »
Voting options are incomplete. Where's "no, because that's crazy"? Lol has nothing to do with confidence in the marketing team.

Offline cn-members

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2014, 11:47:25 am »
It's always against bank policy to use loan to invest in financial product .

Even if you can return it , it would leave a nasty credit report , because the use of loan won't match the financial records .
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2014, 11:53:35 am »
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

Yes, definitely this.

That is irrational. People take out loans all the time for college or to buy houses. Why not to buy BTS?

Do you have enough faith in the protocol to believe the price will go up from here? If you do then why not make a margin trade?
It's always against bank policy to use loan to invest in financial product .

Even if you can return it , it would leave a nasty credit report , because the use of loan won't match the financial records .

The purpose of this poll and post was to try to find out just how confident the community really is that the price of BTS will reach $1. If you really think it will reach $1 then what stops you from taking out a loan and buying 1 million BTS? If you don't think it will reach $1 or you have several rational reasons why it's too risky to make the bet I'd like to hear that.

But just saying you wouldn't do it because it's somehow always incorrect is irrational. It's like saying it's always incorrect to take out loans when most people take out loans to make investments whether it is to buy a house they think will be worth more in the future, a college education they think will get them a high paying job, or a business they think will make them a millionaire.

Bitshares is like that startup which could make you into a millonaire if you put enough money into it. Why not go for broke? Bad credit?


« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 11:57:33 am by luckybit »
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Offline pc

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 11:57:15 am »
Would any of you take out a loan to buy BTS?

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Offline luckybit

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 11:59:53 am »
Would any of you take out a loan to buy BTS?

Rule #1 of investing: never invest money that you can't afford to lose!

Of course that would be dogma but if you're starting a business then chances are you're investing money you can't afford to lose. How many startups are started by college drop outs who invest everything they have into the business? Now how many startups are started by rich kids who can invest exactly what they can afford to lose?

If I look at what happens in practice vs what financial experts say it seems you can make a case that Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak as well as Bill Gates and Paul Allen all invested more than they could afford to lose. They dropped out of college and put everything they had into their businesses.

What about Mark Zuckerberg? How much do you think him and his team invested into Facebook? Or what about the Ethereum team? I heard the reason they were able to raise so much money for the crowd sale is because they all invested everything they had and beyond into it. It seems to have paid off in these examples.

Quote
The intent is to withdraw 4150 BTC from our exodus address within the next 48 hours. We reserve the right to withdraw up to 850 BTC more if needed before the end of the 42 day duration of the sale, but at this point it is likely that the remainder of the BTC in the address will remain unused until the sale ends. Of this amount, 2650 BTC will be distributed to pay for loans for prior expenses. Individuals who have contributed loans to the project will receive repayment in BTC directly; “we” will not be selling any portion of this 2650 BTC on exchanges ourselves, although individuals may choose to independently convert the BTC that they receive into fiat after the fact. Individuals also have the choice of taking the repayment in ether; in those cases, we will simply not send the BTC, and once all repayments have been processed we will publish all of the additional ETH that has been sold in this way (note that this is equivalent to sending individuals their BTC and letting the recipients send it right back into the exodus). The remaining 1500 BTC will be sent to a wallet controlled by ĐΞV, our development arm, and will be used to establish our sites in Berlin and Amsterdam and begin hiring developers; some of this amount may be converted into EUR, GBP or CHF (eg. to pay for rent), and the remainder will be held as BTC.

The interesting thing is suppose you do take out loans to buy BTS? You could then save your BTS as BitUSD guaranteeing that you'll be able to pay off the loan while also helping BTS rise in price.

Reference
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/08/announcement-on-planned-exodus-withdrawal/
https://docs.google.com/a/ethereum.org/spreadsheets/d/1yqymLKNf9tIbArjYrKhEf-IvNmgA6FfvhjnqH_nO_ao/edit?pli=1#gid=0
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 12:09:13 pm by luckybit »
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Offline cn-members

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 12:25:34 pm »
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 12:28:04 pm »
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

Yes, definitely this.

That is irrational. People take out loans all the time for college or to buy houses. Why not to buy BTS?

Do you have enough faith in the protocol to believe the price will go up from here? If you do then why not make a margin trade?
It's always against bank policy to use loan to invest in financial product .

Even if you can return it , it would leave a nasty credit report , because the use of loan won't match the financial records .

The purpose of this poll and post was to try to find out just how confident the community really is that the price of BTS will reach $1. If you really think it will reach $1 then what stops you from taking out a loan and buying 1 million BTS? If you don't think it will reach $1 or you have several rational reasons why it's too risky to make the bet I'd like to hear that.

But just saying you wouldn't do it because it's somehow always incorrect is irrational. It's like saying it's always incorrect to take out loans when most people take out loans to make investments whether it is to buy a house they think will be worth more in the future, a college education they think will get them a high paying job, or a business they think will make them a millionaire.

Bitshares is like that startup which could make you into a millonaire if you put enough money into it. Why not go for broke? Bad credit?

Because the best protocol doesn't necessarily mean the adoption of bitshares.  With a media blackout from Bitcoin...
People like Counterparty, Ethereum, Ripple, Nubits...we are seeing a new "elite" creeping in who will form alliances against projects with philosophies like bitshares.  BitShares is the BEST protocol, but that doesn't mean these institutions will not just steal certain aspects and change the shareholder voting, coupled with a huge marketing campaign through the established crypto channels (and in the case of Ethereum/Bitcoin, the "alternative" media channels) to make users feel good and drown out the voices of concern. 

Taking out a loan right now...as confident as I am in the tech, is not a good idea.  The best thing to would be to take out a loan and diversify within the DPOS ecosystem...unfortunately we have a real community divide on that one--where many see clones as taking away from their piece of the pie.  Of course, most of the opponents somehow, oddly, were drawn to this ecosystem by the idea of having a stake in multiple DACs, so I am confused by this one. 

In summary, our community is still evolving and figuring out what this tech means to us.  We are constantly traveling against stiff headwinds...and our competitors are able to steal our toolkit  without ever being called out in a way that reaches a large user-base.  These are the reasons I would not take out a loan to buy bitshares.
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Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2014, 12:32:51 pm »
People take out loans for investments all the time, they are called margin accounts. ;)

Offline luckybit

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 12:45:32 pm »
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more attractive the bucket gets and then other people start putting money into the bucket.

The interesting feature of Bitshares is that you have BitUSD. So if you took out a $30,000 loan to buy BitUSD and just hold it in BitUSD until after people dump the price down then you'll end up with  your money back plus BTS. If that doesn't happen and it kickstarts the Bitshares price up to $1 then whatever BTS you were holding before you took out the loan would be worth a lot more money.

Tell me how you can lose here?
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

Yes, definitely this.

That is irrational. People take out loans all the time for college or to buy houses. Why not to buy BTS?

Do you have enough faith in the protocol to believe the price will go up from here? If you do then why not make a margin trade?
It's always against bank policy to use loan to invest in financial product .

Even if you can return it , it would leave a nasty credit report , because the use of loan won't match the financial records .

The purpose of this poll and post was to try to find out just how confident the community really is that the price of BTS will reach $1. If you really think it will reach $1 then what stops you from taking out a loan and buying 1 million BTS? If you don't think it will reach $1 or you have several rational reasons why it's too risky to make the bet I'd like to hear that.

But just saying you wouldn't do it because it's somehow always incorrect is irrational. It's like saying it's always incorrect to take out loans when most people take out loans to make investments whether it is to buy a house they think will be worth more in the future, a college education they think will get them a high paying job, or a business they think will make them a millionaire.

Bitshares is like that startup which could make you into a millonaire if you put enough money into it. Why not go for broke? Bad credit?

Because the best protocol doesn't necessarily mean the adoption of bitshares.  With a media blackout from Bitcoin...
People like Counterparty, Ethereum, Ripple, Nubits...we are seeing a new "elite" creeping in who will form alliances against projects with philosophies like bitshares.  BitShares is the BEST protocol, but that doesn't mean these institutions will not just steal certain aspects and change the shareholder voting, coupled with a huge marketing campaign through the established crypto channels (and in the case of Ethereum/Bitcoin, the "alternative" media channels) to make users feel good and drown out the voices of concern. 

Taking out a loan right now...as confident as I am in the tech, is not a good idea.  The best thing to would be to take out a loan and diversify within the DPOS ecosystem...unfortunately we have a real community divide on that one--where many see clones as taking away from their piece of the pie.  Of course, most of the opponents somehow, oddly, were drawn to this ecosystem by the idea of having a stake in multiple DACs, so I am confused by this one. 

In summary, our community is still evolving and figuring out what this tech means to us.  We are constantly traveling against stiff headwinds...and our competitors are able to steal our toolkit  without ever being called out in a way that reaches a large user-base.  These are the reasons I would not take out a loan to buy bitshares.


The reason Bitcoin was risky to take out a loan for was the volatility. Bitshares doesn't actually have much volatility so what is the risk in taking out as big of a loan as you can to buy BitUSD?

Then you hold the BitUSD for a period of weeks or months until the price of BTS decreases. If the price decreases you can buy even more BTS and if the price increases then you might have less but if you trade right why wouldn't you end up with more BTS and still have the BitUSD to pay off the loan?

It's risky and maybe not the thing to do if you're not 100% willing to take a leap of faith but I do think you can at least make an argument for doing it. I think you can actually sort of look at this poll as an indicator of the likelihood that BTS will reach $1.

If people believe in it enough in the core community to take out loans for it then that is the reason to believe in BTS as a person who doesn't have any. It's the level of commitment and risk that the current community takes that can give you confidence so if everyone says they wouldn't take out a loan for BTS then maybe they don't really think the price is going up and that means it might be a good time to wait for some people to dump their shares as this is a bear market.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 12:54:59 pm by luckybit »
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Offline graffenwalder

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2014, 12:48:21 pm »
There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

Offline graffenwalder

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2014, 12:49:08 pm »
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more
Ah great, everybody loves a good ponzi

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2014, 01:02:51 pm »
There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

You are just talking about a different loan structure.  A loan is borrowing money and paying interest to the lender.  Using margin is borrowing money to buy an investment.  It's simple.  One does not have to put up their house as collateral to borrow money.

Offline luckybit

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2014, 01:14:44 pm »
There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

You are just talking about a different loan structure.  A loan is borrowing money and paying interest to the lender.  Using margin is borrowing money to buy an investment.  It's simple.  One does not have to put up their house as collateral to borrow money.

BitAssets pay interest. In theory what would stop Jimmy from borrowing money from a bank and then buying the BitAsset then using the interest from the BitAsset to pay the interest on the loan?

In theory I don't see why this would be wrong ethically or practically if the BitAssets paid enough in interest for it to pay off the loan interest. If the bank were to say pay it all back in full then the BitAsset could literally track exactly in BitUSD to the loan so it's not like the money can poof disappear.
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more
Ah great, everybody loves a good ponzi

So if you do it as a business owner it's just investing in your own business but if you invest in a decentralized business equivalent then it's a ponzi?

I never thought I would see that attitude in this community. As long as the loan can be paid back the banks shouldn't care. As long as you don't lose the money then you shouldn't care. How would you lose the money on an interest paying BitUSD?

« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 01:23:37 pm by luckybit »
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Offline graffenwalder

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 01:25:07 pm »
There's difference between a margin trade (in the BTS client) and going out for a loan.
If your margin got called, you wouldn't have to be scared that BM and Stan would be knocking on your door, to confiscate your house.

You are just talking about a different loan structure.  A loan is borrowing money and paying interest to the lender.  Using margin is borrowing money to buy an investment.  It's simple.  One does not have to put up their house as collateral to borrow money.

BitAssets pay interest. In theory what would stop Jimmy from borrowing money from a bank and then buying the BitAsset then using the interest from the BitAsset to pay the interest on the loan?

In theory I don't see why this would be wrong ethically or practically if the BitAssets paid enough in interest for it to pay off the loan. If the bank were to say pay it all back in full then the BitAsset could literally track exactly in BitUSD to the loan so it's not like the money can poof disappear.
well , some bank I know , they would regularly sneak up on you , ask you to provide detailed proof of use for your loan ,  invoice , financial statement etc ....  If you can't provide that , they will ask you to return the loan ASAP .

There are student loan \ house loans ,  but no BTS loans ....so ...

You can take a personal loan. It doesn't even have to be a huge loan but if each of us put $20,000-30,000 into BTS we'd all be millionaires if it hit $1 and the act of putting that much money into it would cause the price to rise, bring media attention, etc.

So it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy situation where the more money that gets put in the bucket the more
Ah great, everybody loves a good ponzi

So if you do it as a business owner it's just investing in your own business but if you invest in a decentralized business equivalent then it's a ponzi?

I never thought I would see that attitude in this community. As long as the loan can be paid back the banks shouldn't care. As long as you don't lose the money then you shouldn't care. How would you lose the money on an interest paying BitUSD?
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2014, 02:02:51 pm »
There are many ways to borrow. It doesn't have to be a straight loan from the bank. Those are usually really expensive if they're not secured by the asset the loan is intended for (car, house, etc).


If you want to live on the edge take a large cash advance on one of those 0% card offers and hope BTS rises enough in the next 12 to 18 months to pay back the card and the "transaction fee"; usually about 3% - 5%.


I did something similar when mining was big. Bought most of my equipment on a 0% card with the plan that the mining revenue would cover the loan before the 0% period ended. It worked, but barely. Was a squeaker :).


I have one credit card that's at 5.24%. I carry a balance on that because I feel "borrowing" money at 5.24% is relatively cheap compared to my confidence in BTS. It's not a huge balance, I could pay it off easily with a portion of my BTS investment (I bought in at $0.009) so I'll let it ride and see where the marketing push gets us.


Leverage can be a powerful thing when used responsibly.


Offline bitmeat

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2014, 02:30:30 pm »
Then there is borrowing from your own retirement plan, where you pay the interest to yourself. Ha! BTS pays interest to your retirement account, who would've thought?

Offline bytemaster

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2014, 02:51:19 pm »
Buying bit usd cheap is enough to cover almost any loan interest when you sell it back at the feed
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Offline infovortice2013

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2014, 03:12:42 pm »
mmm im thinking about do this sell or ask for credit with my car to go all in bts-pts. Happily for just now i didnt do it.

remember its a high risk invest.

but knowing dev team and work done until know ---- knowing that maybe end of year its ready final bts wallet  --- knowing now bts is (vote,dns,X) 3x1 sound like a christmas sale !!! --- knowing improved sustainability of superDAC

who is crazy ? people that ask for credit to invest or people that didnt ?
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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2014, 03:45:07 pm »
1009990 BTS sold in a single order at Btc38 bringing price down to 0.103. Safe to say that one is not going to take a loan ina  hurry.

Offline Mysto

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2014, 06:34:09 pm »
While I do strongly believe in BTS and think some of these ideas could change the world that is no guarantee of success. Just because an idea is genius does not mean it will take off. Maybe the timing is wrong, maybe someone else with more power and influence will steal it, etc. At this point I would consider BTS a penny stock and I would never take out margin to invest in a penny stock no matter how much I thought I could make or how good the company is. And I lean towards the risky side.

Offline liondani

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2014, 07:30:59 pm »
the easy answer is "no"...
but the idea to buy bitUSD cheap is interesting to minimize the risk...

another factor is if you have a family ...you can take more risks if you don't have one...

is shorting bitUSD not  something like a credit/loan?  I mean I would short bitUSD with my existent BTS before taking a loan to buy BTS

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:32:49 pm by liondani »

Offline Ander

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2014, 07:46:31 pm »
Buying on margin would either be the best or worst decision of your life, depending on whether you got margin called before BTS started going up.

Personally I wouldnt do it because if you buy entirely with your own money, you can hold as long as it takes and you can never lose your BTS.  If you buy on margin you might lose it all and then feel horrible when it went up later on.


So my answer to this poll would be: No, because margin is too risky.  I have a lot of confidence in the bitshares team that we are going higher in the long term, but that doesnt mean it is impossible for it to go down more.  All it takes for it to go down is for someone with a ton of shares to decide to dump.  That can happen in the short term, even if Bitshares later surpasses bitocin and becomes the #1 crypto.


The bitshares chart looks like bitcoin's chart to me, but 1 month delayed.
We bottomed at the start of november, not october.
We went up, but then down again.  I think we now make a higher low (above .084 CNY).  Just like bitcoin's bottom in the low 300s two weeks ago. 


My goal is just to get as many shares as possible before the marketing campaign starts.  I am buying 2 bitcoin worth every two weeks, no matter what, until we go higher. 
I have stopped buying everything that I can: coffees, meals out, games, etc.   Absolutely no non essential expenses, just put absolutely every possible dollar into bitshares right now.

But no margin.  Margin can be the end of all of your dreams.
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Offline jae208

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2014, 08:24:52 pm »
BTS seems pretty sound but isn't guaranteed to succeed. Paying back your loan is a certainty though.

The choice is yours.
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Offline biophil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2014, 08:42:42 pm »
I'm in this cognitive dissonance place where I actually think that if I took out a loan to buy BTS (or similarly, drew down my savings to buy BTS), I'd make money. However, I'm too risk-averse to actually go out and do it.
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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2014, 11:02:48 pm »
Buying on margin would either be the best or worst decision of your life, depending on whether you got margin called before BTS started going up.

Personally I wouldnt do it because if you buy entirely with your own money, you can hold as long as it takes and you can never lose your BTS.  If you buy on margin you might lose it all and then feel horrible when it went up later on.


So my answer to this poll would be: No, because margin is too risky.  I have a lot of confidence in the bitshares team that we are going higher in the long term, but that doesnt mean it is impossible for it to go down more.  All it takes for it to go down is for someone with a ton of shares to decide to dump.  That can happen in the short term, even if Bitshares later surpasses bitocin and becomes the #1 crypto.


The bitshares chart looks like bitcoin's chart to me, but 1 month delayed.
We bottomed at the start of november, not october.
We went up, but then down again.  I think we now make a higher low (above .084 CNY).  Just like bitcoin's bottom in the low 300s two weeks ago. 


My goal is just to get as many shares as possible before the marketing campaign starts.  I am buying 2 bitcoin worth every two weeks, no matter what, until we go higher. 
I have stopped buying everything that I can: coffees, meals out, games, etc.   Absolutely no non essential expenses, just put absolutely every possible dollar into bitshares right now.

But no margin.  Margin can be the end of all of your dreams.

How can you lose your BTS if you immediately buy BitUSD after taking your loan?
Why would you buy BTS just to hold BTS when you have BitAssets which can't crash?

I'm in this cognitive dissonance place where I actually think that if I took out a loan to buy BTS (or similarly, drew down my savings to buy BTS), I'd make money. However, I'm too risk-averse to actually go out and do it.

I guess you won't be making any trades on the Bitshares exchange because you'd be risking money?

The only way some of us can become a millionaire is to take these sorts of risks. Is the million dollar reward worth the risk? It sure is worth it if you can have a million dollars worth of BTS off $30,000 of loaned BTS.

I think people take bigger loans to pay for college and most people who go to college don't earn $1 million over their entire lifetime. So if it is your one chance to become a millionaire do you take it?

BTS seems pretty sound but isn't guaranteed to succeed. Paying back your loan is a certainty though.

The choice is yours.

So you're worried BitUSD wouldn't hold the peg or are you worried that BTS will never reach $1?

If you believe it will reach $1 then you'd be like the people who took out loans to buy Bitcoins. Some people also dropped out of college to start Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, and then they took out all kinds of loan as well.

The people who became billionaires and millionaires are the ones who weren't afraid of risk. The people most afraid of risk are the people who gain the least. It's just a matter of how much risk you're comfortable with.

If you're wrong about Bitcoin or Bitshares then you could end up with bad credit. You probably wont lose your house off a $30,000 loan but your credit will be ruined for 10 years. College loans don't go away after 10 years and honestly people take a bigger risk taking out loans to fix up their house yet they do it all the time.

Do you think your home value is more likely to go up than BTS? Suppose you buy $30,000 worth of BTS off of a loan and immediately buy BitUSD. Now suppose the price crashes down a bit so you sell some BitUSD and you have more BTS than when you started? Now the price goes up to $1 and you've managed to keep at least $30,000 in BitUSD the whole time while also watching your BTS skyrocket?

It's a risk and for sure BTS could crash but so could Bitcoin. The housing market could crash too and maybe after you get your degree the economy could go through a crisis. To be realistic there are risks no matter what you take out your loan for yet everyone still takes out loans for some reason so why not take a risk with Bitshares? The chance for success is about the same as all the examples I mentioned while the examples I mentioned don't have rewards nearly as big because you will not become a millionaire from your college education or your home improvement.


Quote
For a couple of years now I’ve been watching bitcoin move up in value. I first bought a few back in late 2011 or so when they were going for about $4 each – just a few months after the first big run-up to $30 and ensuing crash. At the time, it was thought by most bitcoin people that bitcoin would never again reach that price. Over the next year I bought a few and used them for various purchases.  By the beginning of 2013 they were approaching $20 again, and I was kicking myself for not buying more when they were cheap. It was so obvious, looking back, that they were going to move up! I bought a few at $20 early in 2013 and watched as they rocketed up to more than 10 times that amount (followed of course, by a big crash). Again, I wished I would have bought more back when they were cheap. It was so obvious, looking back, that they were going to move up!

Having missed two opportunities, I didn’t want to miss a third. I didn’t have a lot of cash on hand, and so decided that I would take a 401(k) loan for $10,000 and put it all in bitcoin.

Quote
Last week, I put all my life savings into Bitcoin. I'm only 30 so I know while it is a risk, I still have a chance to recover if it crashes, and I have a full time job anyway. I just thought how the people around me are putting money into their houses, into children and expensive weddings, and they will never get a return on that. It just disappears. I also thought how most people will go their whole life and not take a risk and 'go for it'... and when I'm older, I will not be able to things like this. I will be a lot more conservative. Now is the time for me to take a risk.
So I put a total of about $50,000 USD and bought in. I don't know how long I'll keep it in, but I'm thinking at least 5 to 10 years, maybe longer. I haven't told anyone and I don't plan to, but I feel good about it. Another thing I think about is that there will only be 21 million bitcoins ever released, and that is NOTHING when I stop and think about it. To me it seems like a great opportunity.

Quote

Really? Common consensus is that in 10 years Bitcoin will be worth orders of magnitude more, or nothing.

If you invest 100% of your life savings, you will either make lets say $10mm, or $0.
If you invest 50% of your life savings, you will either make $5mm or $0. Yet you still have $25k contingency in your savings for when you need it.

You're first millions will have the most utility to you, your later millions will have far less utility to you. Exposing yourself to increased risk on the chance you'll make more millions that will have far less impact on your life is basically greed.

Investing 100% over 50% your savings has moderately better upside in terms of impact on your life, but a disproportionate downside being that you've got no savings for a long time.
Why not just invest 50% of the savings. You're still going to make millions if it pans out. And you'll still have savings if it doesn't pan out. And you might need money in the future.

Investing 100% of your savings in a super high risk super high reward place is gambling, plain and simple. Do you really have the character to write it off if it zeros out and carry on life as normal? I wouldn't, not many people can tolerate that sort of loss. Don't romanticise about big losses and big gains. It's going to blur your judgement. And when you actually are sitting there $50k down in the future you'll feel like an idiot, and you'll feel like shit for a long time. It's sobering. I've been there, and it hurts.

Don't egg people on to invest everything they own. Highly unethical. I can't stress this enough. There's a chance this guy could be setting himself up to ruin his life. No one here knows how he would cope with that loss if it did happen.

I can't beleive people are actually supporting this idea. People are generally rubbish at evaluating risk and reward. And the worst thing about it is that people often think they are good at evaluating it. Very high risk very high reward isn't something you throw your entire life savings at obviously. Obviously.

If that's the best investment advice you've seen for a long time, well, I don't know what to say really. It's the worst investment advice I've read, pretty much ever. The stuff about writing off potentially devastating losses like this as "experiences and memories" that will "be with you always" made me laugh out loud just from the total absurdity of it.
I don't care if this post makes me look like an asshole, because I want to try and stop people destroying their lives.


Yes the choice is definitely yours.

References
http://defiantsaint.com/?p=8
http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-savings-into-bitcoin/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kpsi5/i_put_all_my_life_savings_into_bitcoins/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kpsi5/i_put_all_my_life_savings_into_bitcoins/cbrjhoa
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 11:33:52 pm by luckybit »
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Offline D4vegee

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2014, 11:50:13 pm »
I'd shit myself if i took out a loan to invest in any crypto currency. Ok, BTS might be worth a dollar or two in a year. But that means i'd be gambling.

Read the Github commits and other crypto forums. That should give anybody serious enough to take out a loan some food for thought.

A word of advice for any noobs reading this thread. WEIGHT IT UP! Don't invest more than you are willing to lose. The sharks will kill you. Crypto is a LONG term investment. Hold on tight.


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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2014, 03:29:50 am »
I'm confident it's gonna happen. Confident enough for a loan? Yes. But not if it were a short term engagement, because time frames tend to get extended around here. It's a little hard for the layperson to predict timing with any near certainty.

Offline joele

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2014, 03:51:55 am »
Yeah why not, I going to get some in my btc paper wallet and pay back once price get up.

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2014, 04:55:03 am »
I will buy bts using my share money
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Offline jsidhu

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2014, 09:22:20 am »
At these prices i would!
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Offline jsidhu

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2014, 09:24:17 am »
1009990 BTS sold in a single order at Btc38 bringing price down to 0.103. Safe to say that one is not going to take a loan ina  hurry.

Wat an idiot lol
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Offline vlight

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2014, 09:39:57 am »
No, if you count in the risk of getting hacked.

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2014, 09:44:15 am »
1009990 BTS sold in a single order at Btc38 bringing price down to 0.103. Safe to say that one is not going to take a loan ina  hurry.

Wat an idiot lol

Time will tell. Like that other thread saying that somebody selling at 484 sat was an idiot, but turns it has potentially increased his holdings (if he has bought back in).

I think this sell-off was an arbitrage trade.

Offline Thom

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2014, 04:43:57 pm »
No, I would never take out a loan for an investment, no matter how good it may seem.

But yes, I think this is a good moment to buy, if your not planning on selling tomorrow.

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2014, 07:03:52 am »
Where are the loaners? Another single sell off amounting to 1.5 million + :D

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2016, 01:52:11 am »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2016, 03:06:24 am »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

Offline llildur

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2016, 04:06:01 am »
Zombie thread comes alive  :P

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2016, 04:11:32 am »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

I had doubts whenever bts price gets lower and people calling it a buy opportunity.  But not this time.  My gut feeling is telling me this time it is for real. 
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Offline Brekyrself

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2016, 04:26:18 am »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

I had doubts whenever bts price gets lower and people calling it a buy opportunity.  But not this time.  My gut feeling is telling me this time it is for real. 

Every time I look at coinmarketcap and see BitShares out of the top 10 I am truly shocked.  I do not understand how some of these other coins that bring zero innovation over Bitcoin are still around.  BitShares has so much going for it, yet not a peep about it on BitcoinTalk or any other major outlet.

Offline cube

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2016, 04:30:22 am »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

I had doubts whenever bts price gets lower and people calling it a buy opportunity.  But not this time.  My gut feeling is telling me this time it is for real. 

Every time I look at coinmarketcap and see BitShares out of the top 10 I am truly shocked.  I do not understand how some of these other coins that bring zero innovation over Bitcoin are still around.  BitShares has so much going for it, yet not a peep about it on BitcoinTalk or any other major outlet.

Coinmarketcap  is very much being manipulated.  And bitshares had gain much antagonism with bitcoiners and other altcoins  in our historical encounters.  Not surprisingly people are not talking in bitcointalk.  This negative image has to change.
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2016, 12:06:55 pm »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

that would be me.. :)..Sold my precious 15 year old toyota corolla 1 year ago when bts was more than double market cap what it is today..Public transportation especially in my country is not the most comfortably thing for me the last year..since then i also had a huge margin call in polo on my long position...

I am still patiently waiting for the summer announcement  that will take bts to the moon (although i doubt that even if that happens i will ever be able to cover my losses)  .I can only hope that the moon is reached before 2036  ::)

Having said that..if i still had my car or any money left I would again sell my car today and buy bts at these levels.

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2016, 01:16:11 pm »
It's nice to see that you are so enthousiast about Bitshares future... But except speculation, why do you believe it will be worth that much? Except the tech of course, cause history has shown us it doesn't mean anything (BTS would be worth much more of it were solely valued on the tech behind it)


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Offline yvv

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2016, 02:21:26 pm »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

I had doubts whenever bts price gets lower and people calling it a buy opportunity.  But not this time.  My gut feeling is telling me this time it is for real.

Yeah, right. As usual.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2016, 02:47:23 pm »
The time to buy BTS will be when the holders finally realize that all they are doing is paying for the UIA issuers security and transfers via dilution.

BTS is operating at a loss every day via workers and witness's.  Think of it as any other business, would you buy into a business that generates negative profits and hardly any revenue?  There are lots of valuable companies out there that have negative profits, but large revenues... Amazon, Tesla, and Netflix come to mind.  At some point in the future, they plan to turn that big revenue into profits which is why they have a high valuation.  BTS has no revenue much less an idea on how to generate profits.

I've harped that fee's will need to be raised in order to generate the revenues and profits.  If the focus is switched to providing forex traders with a stable platform with ample liquidity, they will be more than willing to pay fee's.  The fee's could be percentage based or flat.  But trying to get this community to pivot or agree on a direction is like turning around the Titanic.

Offline yvv

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2016, 03:26:10 pm »
Quote
BTS is operating at a loss every day via workers and witness's.

This is a tiny 150K BTS per day. It will take ~30 years to deplete the reserve at this pace. Revenue will increase by huge amount when transaction rate will increase from current few hundreds per day to millions per day. And the main source of delusion is not tiny spending budget, but the release of vested balances from merger.

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2016, 03:27:01 pm »
Fees can be raised when we start having a decent amount of volume. Now we are trying to gain traction, not a good time IMO to have higher Tx fee than other cryptos. The reserve pool is deep and november will help slower dilution ;)

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Offline nomoreheroes7

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2016, 03:28:47 pm »
Quote
BTS is operating at a loss every day via workers and witness's.
source of delusion

Lol

Offline yvv

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2016, 03:34:12 pm »
Fees can be raised when we start having a decent amount of volume. Now we are trying to gain traction, not a good time IMO to have higher Tx fee than other cryptos. The reserve pool is deep and november will help slower dilution ;)

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You will not need to increase fees when BTS will gain traction. Revenue will raise because a number of transactions will raise.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2016, 03:46:54 pm »
Quote
BTS is operating at a loss every day via workers and witness's.

This is a tiny 150K BTS per day. It will take ~30 years to deplete the reserve at this pace. Revenue will increase by huge amount when transaction rate will increase from current few hundreds per day to millions per day. And the main source of delusion is not tiny spending budget, but the release of vested balances from merger.

I'm just trying to point out why we are seeing network growth without BTS token market cap growth.  Obviously its a great deal right now if you are an asset issuer, that's why I have divested much of my BTS into other projects on the DEX.

Until you see an actual reason to hold BTS (the best reason would be distribution of future profits), the token will languish.  If we could subsidize liquidity for 3 or 4 of the smart coin markets, we could increase the trading fee's to 5 or 10 cents a trade.  Traders would happily pay that as it would be much less than the commissions they currently pay.

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2016, 03:49:25 pm »
Fees can be raised when we start having a decent amount of volume. Now we are trying to gain traction, not a good time IMO to have higher Tx fee than other cryptos. The reserve pool is deep and november will help slower dilution ;)

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You will not need to increase fees when BTS will gain traction. Revenue will raise because a number of transactions will raise.
That's true !

But some kind of mix between limited rate Tx for small amounts and % based fee for larger amounts would be then perfect. It would allows micro paiments and also raise the revenue of BitShares.
 


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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2016, 03:51:42 pm »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

that would be me.. :)..Sold my precious 15 year old toyota corolla 1 year ago when bts was more than double market cap what it is today..Public transportation especially in my country is not the most comfortably thing for me the last year..since then i also had a huge margin call in polo on my long position...

I am still patiently waiting for the summer announcement  that will take bts to the moon (although i doubt that even if that happens i will ever be able to cover my losses)  .I can only hope that the moon is reached before 2036  ::)

Having said that..if i still had my car or any money left I would again sell my car today and buy bts at these levels.


have you not learned enough ....summer announcement   :P :P
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Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2016, 04:09:09 pm »
Quote
BTS is operating at a loss every day via workers and witness's.

This is a tiny 150K BTS per day. It will take ~30 years to deplete the reserve at this pace. Revenue will increase by huge amount when transaction rate will increase from current few hundreds per day to millions per day. And the main source of delusion is not tiny spending budget, but the release of vested balances from merger.

something reasonable n that makes sense to me.

We must be pretty careful with reserves,  support things that are easy, fast to do n that can bring liquidity n cheap if possible, long term things n big spending wont help right now..... cheap things like chronos video wont help too (with all due respect, just my opinion) just wasting reserves money n hurting the market
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2016, 04:16:43 pm »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Sell your motorcycle so that you don't die... don't sell your motorcycle to buy BTS.  We've already had at least one person who has sold his vehicle when BTS was trading at much higher levels...

that would be me.. :)..Sold my precious 15 year old toyota corolla 1 year ago when bts was more than double market cap what it is today..Public transportation especially in my country is not the most comfortably thing for me the last year..since then i also had a huge margin call in polo on my long position...

I am still patiently waiting for the summer announcement  that will take bts to the moon (although i doubt that even if that happens i will ever be able to cover my losses)  .I can only hope that the moon is reached before 2036  ::)

Having said that..if i still had my car or any money left I would again sell my car today and buy bts at these levels.


have you not learned enough ....summer announcement   :P :P


Offline Chronos

Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2016, 04:35:06 pm »
cheap things like chronos video wont help too (with all due respect, just my opinion)
Guess I need to charge more. Then it won't be a cheap thing.  :P

Offline mike623317

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2016, 02:29:52 pm »

I would not get a loan to buy BTS, but I do agree that they are s bargain at these prices. Therefore I would use as much extra cash I can put my hands on to buy some more.

That said, I would DEARLY love to see a decent wallet created. I think s decent professional looking wallet would really help. If I was a coder I would try and make one. Looking forward to my-echo coming through later in the year. If this economy crashes later this year it would be great to have it in place.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2016, 04:34:56 pm »
Hold your cash... I think we see BTS sub 7 million market cap much sooner than we see 14 million.

The trend of lower highs and lower lows will most likely continue.  Especially if the bottom falls out of bitcoin when people realize that the halving was baked into the price.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2016, 04:41:44 pm »
Hold your cash... I think we see BTS sub 7 million market cap much sooner than we see 14 million.

The trend of lower highs and lower lows will most likely continue.  Especially if the bottom falls out of bitcoin when people realize that the halving was baked into the price.

BTC can support $800 with the same level of average new demand it supported $400. So while there will likely be corrections and volatility, I don't see BTC having a problem stabilizing in the $700-800 range.

Most people realise the halving is being priced in currently and aren't expecting a dramatic increase in price at the actual halving or shortly thereafter.

There's also great tailwinds for BTC currently in the form of a much higher likelihood of Brexit, which is causing GBP and EUR to slide as well as European banking stocks. HSBC is forecasting a potential rise in Gold of up to 10% on a Brexit outcome, this bodes very well for BTC and other safe haven currencies.

(Where I do see upcoming short potential is in ETH. Since being added to Bitfinex or for some other reason, it seems to be a lot more correlated to BTC however when the increased volumes and current tailwinds die down I think it will struggle to maintain that inflated price with it's much higher level of inflation.)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 04:45:01 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline okidoki

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2016, 04:44:42 pm »
Hold your cash... I think we see BTS sub 7 million market cap much sooner than we see 14 million.

The trend of lower highs and lower lows will most likely continue.  Especially if the bottom falls out of bitcoin when people realize that the halving was baked into the price.

If I see such optimism I tend to think that we are at rock bottom ;)

I think the announcement from Dan marked the absolute lowest point... although I think Bitshares doesn't need him anymore it has all the important features... and wait if another exchange runs away with the money of their users... being the marketcap of bitcoin a 100 billion...

Offline okidoki

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2016, 04:54:58 pm »
The time to buy BTS will be when the holders finally realize that all they are doing is paying for the UIA issuers security and transfers via dilution.

BTS is operating at a loss every day via workers and witness's.  Think of it as any other business, would you buy into a business that generates negative profits and hardly any revenue?  There are lots of valuable companies out there that have negative profits, but large revenues... Amazon, Tesla, and Netflix come to mind.  At some point in the future, they plan to turn that big revenue into profits which is why they have a high valuation.  BTS has no revenue much less an idea on how to generate profits.

I've harped that fee's will need to be raised in order to generate the revenues and profits.  If the focus is switched to providing forex traders with a stable platform with ample liquidity, they will be more than willing to pay fee's.  The fee's could be percentage based or flat.  But trying to get this community to pivot or agree on a direction is like turning around the Titanic.

I think you are struggling too much... I think you should dump everything and take a look at government bonds which pay a cupon yearly... Or some banking stock which are depressed lately as well.... Why stay with Bitshares if you can switch it to something that makes money... Even Dogecoin has a better tech and seems not to loose money... 33 million market cap... More than triple than bitshares...  :P

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2016, 05:07:45 pm »
It can go lower?
Its hard to say, if bitcoin explode so I can agree that we can get some obscene bargain but I already saw a lot of bad projects that at this point bounced n never looked back, so its hard to predict. I will be waiting for 450 toto try  double what I have. Im pretty much confortable right now 8)
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2016, 05:52:50 pm »
I love posting to BTS bulls... They defend their investment like it's their only child.

People have been screaming "rock bottom" since 30 million market cap.

and OkiDoki,  I've already divested a significant amount of BTS into other projects.  And you are probably right about bank stocks being a better investment now than BTS.  Government bonds would be better too since you won't be down 20-50% in a month (unless the world blows up of course).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 05:54:42 pm by lil_jay890 »

Offline okidoki

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2016, 06:06:39 pm »
I love posting to BTS bulls... They defend their investment like it's their only child.

People have been screaming "rock bottom" since 30 million market cap.

and OkiDoki,  I've already divested a significant amount of BTS into other projects.  And you are probably right about bank stocks being a better investment now than BTS.  Government bonds would be better too since you won't be down 20-50% in a month (unless the world blows up of course).

Dump it all and get it over with...  :)

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2016, 08:24:09 pm »
I love posting to BTS bulls... They defend their investment like it's their only child.

People have been screaming "rock bottom" since 30 million market cap.

and OkiDoki,  I've already divested a significant amount of BTS into other projects.  And you are probably right about bank stocks being a better investment now than BTS.  Government bonds would be better too since you won't be down 20-50% in a month (unless the world blows up of course).

Jay, to be down 20-50% thats crypto bussiness....you will not shot perfectly.....2014 I was down 90%  :o fucking scary
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2016, 08:45:25 pm »
I love posting to BTS bulls... They defend their investment like it's their only child.

People have been screaming "rock bottom" since 30 million market cap.

and OkiDoki,  I've already divested a significant amount of BTS into other projects.  And you are probably right about bank stocks being a better investment now than BTS.  Government bonds would be better too since you won't be down 20-50% in a month (unless the world blows up of course).

Jay, to be down 20-50% thats crypto bussiness....you will not shot perfectly.....2014 I was down 90%  :o fucking scary

Many people here are down 90%... Many have gone bust because of getting margin called (either by poloniex or bugs that were in the DEX).

Point I'm trying to make is that bitshares is in a huge downtrend that has gone lower and will probably keep going lower than anyone thinks.  It's consistently the one of the worst performing currencies during rallies.  Lower highs lower lows.  Even Dan Larimer says there is no reason that the bitshares token should have a high market cap even IF the network gets big... I don't get why people continue to try to fight this trend and pick a bottom.  BTS has crushed so many people who have tried to do that.

This could all change if people started thinking about how to make bts a profitable company... because right now its a charity.  Maybe it starts performing better after the merger ends, but other than that I don't see any reason for the BTS token to have substantial value. 

Can someone please explain to me why it should have a high market cap (we can already see increased network usage != higher market cap)? 

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2016, 09:10:54 pm »
This could all change if people started thinking about how to make bts a profitable company... because right now its a charity.  Maybe it starts performing better after the merger ends, but other than that I don't see any reason for the BTS token to have substantial value. 

Can someone please explain to me why it should have a high market cap (we can already see increased network usage != higher market cap)?

You don't have to be profitable, you just have to attract more demand for the BTS token that you are spending. This can be achieved multiple ways...

- Attracting users the market believes you can credibly monetize in future thereby raising your valuation.
- SmartCoin adoption causing more BTS demand than is spent on liquidity and possibly a yield promotion.
- (If there's no more mergers or supply changes) BTS could be adopted as a limited money similar to gold or Bitcoin.
- Popular third party products & services we don't earn fees from but use BTS as the underlying currency thereby creating BTS demand.

Ethereum, Bitcoin, Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, Weibo etc. are all worth billions but are not profitable yet.
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Offline yvv

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2016, 09:23:34 pm »
The only way to make bitshares profitable is to attract more users to DEX. Few hundreds of payments and trades per day is a shame. To be profitable, bitshares needs a transaction volume similar to that of bitcoin, i.e. hundreds thousands per day.

And yes, increased network usage != higher BTS market cap. Appreciation of BTS is good for holders, but not necessarily good for DEX.

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2016, 09:30:58 pm »
I love posting to BTS bulls... They defend their investment like it's their only child.

People have been screaming "rock bottom" since 30 million market cap.

and OkiDoki,  I've already divested a significant amount of BTS into other projects.  And you are probably right about bank stocks being a better investment now than BTS.  Government bonds would be better too since you won't be down 20-50% in a month (unless the world blows up of course).

Jay, to be down 20-50% thats crypto bussiness....you will not shot perfectly.....2014 I was down 90%  :o fucking scary

Many people here are down 90%... Many have gone bust because of getting margin called (either by poloniex or bugs that were in the DEX).

Point I'm trying to make is that bitshares is in a huge downtrend that has gone lower and will probably keep going lower than anyone thinks.  It's consistently the one of the worst performing currencies during rallies.  Lower highs lower lows.  Even Dan Larimer says there is no reason that the bitshares token should have a high market cap even IF the network gets big... I don't get why people continue to try to fight this trend and pick a bottom.  BTS has crushed so many people who have tried to do that.

This could all change if people started thinking about how to make bts a profitable company... because right now its a charity.  Maybe it starts performing better after the merger ends, but other than that I don't see any reason for the BTS token to have substantial value. 

Can someone please explain to me why it should have a high market cap (we can already see increased network usage != higher market cap)?
Man, I fully disagree with you. When bts touch 400 last time everybody saw the power of the beast
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Offline jsidhu

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2016, 10:42:25 pm »
ill buy in again at 100 sats
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Offline nmywn

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2016, 11:01:54 pm »
With BTS you can short dollar and it's very tempting right now. But to make short you need someone who want buy. If OPENPOS is not just bullshit and they deliver soon we have some chance. Colateral takes bts out of the market and most people shorting because they are gamblers.

All we need is huge market. Openledger doing great job working to make it happen (real work, we can see effects).

Do you even read bitco.in forum? New bitcoin forum with old gang crew. They want fork and they will, because they can and are fascinated  by this idea. And they have a lot of BTC.

 They need market, we need market - what's wrong with you, guys?

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2016, 11:40:35 pm »
ill buy in again at 100 sats
if bts touch sub 300 I sell my motorcycle without a tought
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2016, 11:53:58 pm »
ill buy in again at 100 sats
if bts touch sub 300 I sell my motorcycle without a tought

You really are an eternal optimist around here, aren't you? But you seriously may want to step back and evaluate your level of emotional investment in BitShares. I know firsthand how it feels to be "certain" a coin will rise in the future and to be excited by "fire sale" prices. And it's bitten me in the ass every time. BTS can most certainly go down from here, and it is entirely possible something awesome does come along and propels it higher. But you really just don't know. It's a gamble.

Offline yvv

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2016, 12:22:13 am »
I will not sell my motorcycle for BTS never. Riding motorcycle is so much more fun than gambling with freaking crypto token...

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2016, 01:04:19 am »
ill buy in again at 100 sats
if bts touch sub 300 I sell my motorcycle without a tought

You really are an eternal optimist around here, aren't you? But you seriously may want to step back and evaluate your level of emotional investment in BitShares. I know firsthand how it feels to be "certain" a coin will rise in the future and to be excited by "fire sale" prices. And it's bitten me in the ass every time. BTS can most certainly go down from here, and it is entirely possible something awesome does come along and propels it higher. But you really just don't know. It's a gamble.

Man if you are not optimist right now, when you will ever be?  8)

Seriously, bts is at a bargain right now...... be afraid now is not an option...... go big or go home, just my opinion when most experienced communities members are cautious, when I read too much bad things that is the time I like to get onboard :o
Im trying to do what I can to make bitshares happen, when It rocket 30x I will sell 50%, if dex get big I will keep another 50% like Im doing with drk (Im already 3x+ in my drk initial investment) for the long term because I see our tech is brand new n will take some years for somenthing so revolutionary n really needed like bts can born again, you dont see a project like bts born every year in crypto space.
I dont gamble, Im pretty much unlucky :D
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Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2016, 01:11:18 am »
I will not sell my motorcycle for BTS never. Riding motorcycle is so much more fun than gambling with freaking crypto token...
I believe bts can bring me more satisfaction  :D at least I hope...but no gamble
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Offline yvv

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2016, 01:27:30 am »
I will not sell my motorcycle for BTS never. Riding motorcycle is so much more fun than gambling with freaking crypto token...
I believe bts can bring me more satisfaction  :D at least I hope...but no gamble

Dude, keep your motorcycle to yourself, and find a girl with big tits to ride together. This will bring you a lot of more satisfaction than BTS.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 02:54:46 am by yvv »

Offline okidoki

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2016, 02:34:00 am »
Seems like people like loooooow tech... like Feathercoin is about to rise above BitShares... went up from 3.9 million to 9 million in 2 days...

Volume more or less the same like BitShares... but it seems like at Feathercoin there are not so many eager sellers...

Or people are switching from BitShares to Feathercoin???

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2016, 07:46:51 pm »
ok,

now we can start talking about this....

I have some btc to buy a little more..... but if bitshares starts to go obscene beyond down from what I expect  Im going to sell my motorcycle whitout a thought.  8)

Quoted for historical purposes   8)
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Offline nmywn

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2016, 10:51:48 pm »
I will not sell my motorcycle for BTS never. Riding motorcycle is so much more fun than gambling with freaking awesome crypto token...

I made little correction in your sentence. I hope you don't mind...

Offline bitAndy

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2016, 09:25:05 pm »
Just to make everyone feel better about there own losses here, I took out a £2200 loan when the price was 1p per share, now it's about quarter of that and I've never sold. That's not including the probably other £2000+ I had invested myself before that. This was when I was just getting into crypto - originally I was diversified in other crypto's and then went all in on bitshares. I'm not that well off either, this was while working a part time job. Safe to say I regret it haha.

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2016, 10:24:58 pm »
Just to make everyone feel better about there own losses here, I took out a £2200 loan when the price was 1p per share, now it's about quarter of that and I've never sold. That's not including the probably other £2000+ I had invested myself before that. This was when I was just getting into crypto - originally I was diversified in other crypto's and then went all in on bitshares. I'm not that well off either, this was while working a part time job. Safe to say I regret it haha.

Man I really feel your pain, but if I can make you feel better  n have a good perspective for the future lets unfold what can happen.....

Bitshares is a top assets which is a bargain right now, no other asset has better cost for what it offers.....n this means MUCH

if starts a bull run from here, it will be epic n huge
ok it maybe go a little bit down, its possible, but will people give away their bts for a price of a shit asset? I hardly doubt! Try to play at bottom you you loose when you see it 8x from one day to another.....so you will wait for it go down again n it starts to make higher lows n you never catch it again......it will be fast n strong..........so start to worry abou few satohis that you buy for more or less does not make any sense for the long run........

when it grows like a monster try not tu dump all your bts...or dump like 50%, n try to support bts growth n development because you made some money so give some in exchange n try to make a virtuous cycle........

if bts starts his bull run right now it will be epic...if bts starts his bull run when bitcoin become frenetic something more than epic will happen.....

so please stay strong support bts, try not to dump all your coins now neither when it grows like a monster....be wise...make it happen for bitshares because certainly bitshares will make it happen for all ecosystem its up to holders, traders partners n investor, developers all of you  :D

sorry fi it appers too passionate  :-X
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Offline bitAndy

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Re: Is now the best time to buy BTS? Would you take out a loan to do it?
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2016, 10:42:15 pm »
Just to make everyone feel better about there own losses here, I took out a £2200 loan when the price was 1p per share, now it's about quarter of that and I've never sold. That's not including the probably other £2000+ I had invested myself before that. This was when I was just getting into crypto - originally I was diversified in other crypto's and then went all in on bitshares. I'm not that well off either, this was while working a part time job. Safe to say I regret it haha.

Man I really feel your pain, but if I can make you feel better  n have a good perspective for the future lets unfold what can happen.....

Bitshares is a top assets which is a bargain right now, no other asset has better cost for what it offers.....n this means MUCH

if starts a bull run from here, it will be epic n huge
ok it maybe go a little bit down, its possible, but will people give away their bts for a price of a shit asset? I hardly doubt! Try to play at bottom you you loose when you see it 8x from one day to another.....so you will wait for it go down again n it starts to make higher lows n you never catch it again......it will be fast n strong..........so start to worry abou few satohis that you buy for more or less does not make any sense for the long run........

when it grows like a monster try not tu dump all your bts...or dump like 50%, n try to support bts growth n development because you made some money so give some in exchange n try to make a virtuous cycle........

if bts starts his bull run right now it will be epic...if bts starts his bull run when bitcoin become frenetic something more than epic will happen.....

so please stay strong support bts, try not to dump all your coins now neither when it grows like a monster....be wise...make it happen for bitshares because certainly bitshares will make it happen for all ecosystem its up to holders, traders partners n investor, developers all of you  :D

sorry fi it appers too passionate  :-X

Yeah I want to believe we're near to our bottom. I knew when I started investing that I was in it for the long haul. I'd never sell at these prices. We're so early into the life of crypto in general that all it takes is one black swan incident like the hyperinflation of a fiat currency for bitcoin to skyrocket again, raising all other cryptos. We just need to keep bitshares moving along and in the crypto consciousness until that time.