Author Topic: Upgrading bitcoin  (Read 13124 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Still got the same problem. Miners don't even mine non-standard transaction scripts, so they certainly aren't going to mine some amount of arbitrary non transaction data baked into a transaction.
since when do miners 'care' about the block they mine?
you can have a standard transaction that shows participation .. take the btc address 1BTSsssssssssssasfaas  as an example .. that one has to be the only tx in the block to participate ..

Offline monsterer

and all they have to do to get these vested coins are to mine blocks with a simple message that supports the upgrade.

Still got the same problem. Miners don't even mine non-standard transaction scripts, so they certainly aren't going to mine some amount of arbitrary non transaction data baked into a transaction.
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Offline Rune

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I support the community consensus of making rune do what we want him to do.

Make him conform to us against his will.

Dan invented a nuclear coin and rune is terifying.

Again, I'm not doing this as a member of the bitshares community, and the fact that there is clearly lots of resistance against it from the bitshares community means that bitcoiners will know this isn't "bitshares' fault". Of course if the sharedrop of upgradecoins to BTS holders gives the wrong impression, then that can be removed. But I don't think that will cause an issue because people will understand it is being done in accordance to the social contract of using the BTS toolkit.

Offline Rune

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It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further.

You can't pay them without 51% of them simultaneously agreeing to accept the payment. That is the key failure mode of this idea.

You simply allow them to continue their normal mining operations, but reward them with vested coins in the new system that mature if they perform the upgrade and halt transactions on the bitcoin network, and all they have to do to get these vested coins are to mine blocks with a simple message that supports the upgrade. At some point 51% of mining power will consider it more profitable to redeem them rather than continue mining normally. At this point the attack will happen spontaneously.

Initially miners will probably be motivated by different incentives, instead of mining the ERB's for the vested coins, they will do it because every ERB will cause the price of the "upgradecoin" to spike since the probability of them becoming worth 1 bitcoin increases. So there will be huge opportunities for "insider trading" by miners who mine ERBs. Of course once they've mined one or more ERB's the vested coins they now own gives them an incentive to actively support the upgrade, so every ERB that is mined permanently increases the probability of the upgrade going through, ensuring that in the long run it will reach critical mass.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 01:34:03 pm by Rune »

Offline bitsnowden

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You might be able to swing it as a environmental crusade.

Rune must not be allowed to save the environment.

We must stop him

Make him conform to us against his will.

Maybe torture him:

youtube.com/watch?v=UAwEi0pW0bc

OMG RUNE cometh!!!!!  RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 12:23:18 pm by bitsnowden »

Offline vegolino

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What is motivation behind this? Greed? Fame?
I like one of bytemaster rules "Don't initiate use of force" and this looks to me like it. I like you Rune, but you are heading in a wrong direction with this plan.

Offline monsterer

It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further.

You can't pay them without 51% of them simultaneously agreeing to accept the payment. That is the key failure mode of this idea.
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Offline Rune

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I'm not having any illusions that this won't cause a torrent of controversy. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The prospect of an "attack" is what will make bitcoiners wake up to the fact that if they want to keep satoshis blockchain and currency alive, it MUST be upgraded. We simply cannot allow it to die. I think the people who are in this for the ideals rather than the profits will eventually come to understand why it is important.

Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

It's about upgrading bitcoin and ensuring its long term survival. Coins will be sharedropped on BTS owners to fulfill the social contract, but it's not being done for our sake specifically, it's for the sake of the entire blockchain industry.

First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.

It sounds crazy, but it will work. Worst case scenario bitcoin sees massive volatility and the miner bribes have to be increased. Whatever the price, it will still be worth it in the long run if the result sees bitcoin being put on a sustainable long term trajectory.

This idea is madness. How much money do you think the bitcoin miners have invested in their warehouses of liquid-cooled, custom built racks of ASIC mining equipment, which are specifically designed to solve SHA256 hashes?

You seriously expect 51% of the mining power, with all that investment to all simultaneously agree to throw their existing tried and tested business model, equipment and infrastructure away on the promise of some untried, untested idea?

It's as simple as paying 51% of them more than their current expected return. Using incentive structures that abuse the tragedy of the commons inherent in POW mining can reduce the price even further. Since the incentives are vested and conditional on the upgrade taking effect, they can be freely increased to whatever level is required to convince miners to support it. In the end, whatever the price ends up becoming, it will be worth it because the alternative is bitcoin simply dying a slow death. Also in the long run it will prevent another 7 million BTC created out of wasteful inflation, so there's a lot to pay with.

I prefer a stealth attack where BitBTC poses as friend, starts getting used interchangeably with Bitcoin, and slowly captures part of the marketcap (channeling it into BTS).

I don't think this strategy will work, because bitcoin true believers are good at identifying things that will result in the longterm irrelevance of bitcoin. They consider the bitcoin blockchain and the bitcoin moniker culturally significant, and anything working to undermine that is rejected for reasons that have nothing to do with economics. Upgrading bitcoin will ensure that these important symbols are preserved when the inevitable migration to next generation blockchain technology happens, and will overall make the transition significantly faster.

Offline monsterer

This idea is madness. How much money do you think the bitcoin miners have invested in their warehouses of liquid-cooled, custom built racks of ASIC mining equipment, which are specifically designed to solve SHA256 hashes?

You seriously expect 51% of the mining power, with all that investment to all simultaneously agree to throw their existing tried and tested business model, equipment and infrastructure away on the promise of some untried, untested idea?
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sumantso

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I'd prefer the strategy to let me figure it out themselves without aggressively attacking the chain .. though theoretical discussions are a +5%!!!

In the meantime we can get them to start using BitBTC and try to get a piece of the pie.

Offline xeroc

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First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.
As much as I like @Rune's proposal for it's forward thinking, I tend to agree with luckybit here.
Although most people in r/bitcoin are greedy and blindly following the bitcoin tech, we must make sure to honor satoshi's invention instead of attacking it. None of this would have been possible blabla .. bla ..

I'd prefer the strategy to let me figure it out themselves without aggressively attacking the chain .. though theoretical discussions are a +5%!!!

zerosum

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Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

Rune is Satoshi.... he wants his baby on DPOS  :)

Offline arhag

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Rune, why are you trying to do this? How would this possibly benefit the BTS community in any way?

Offline hpenvy

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First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.

We're having a great discussion about working with Bitcoin with a combined web wallet 'Bitcoin wallet that earns interest'.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11397.0

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Offline luckybit

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First of all it wont work. Second of all it will put Bitshares on the permanent blacklist by Bitcoin power brokers.

It's not worth it. It's better to work with rather than against Bitcoin at this time. They have the market cap and like it or not the entire industry rides on the success of Bitcoin. They might not have the greatest technology but they will be the first crypto everyone hears about rather than the last.
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