Author Topic: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.  (Read 16363 times)

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Offline Bitty

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2015, 05:56:30 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc

PLAYshares (PLS) allocations: 35 % will go to BTS holders on December 8, 2014 12:00 PM (UTC).

Sparkle had a snapshot on December 14th, 2014 and will honor AGS, PTS, and BTS with 33% each.

....

My bad, I didn't know PLS wasn't doing AGS/PTS. My personal suggestion is to drop on AGS/PTS because that's still a better demographic than BTS at the moment. But I have no control over what 3rd party devs do.

Holding PTS entitled me to get my share from the VOTE/DNS merger. I was entitled to BTS from this merger on december 8, however I didn't receive them yet.
So I won't get PLS?

Yes you will, snapshots don't care whether you opened your wallet or not. Addresses are addresses. You can check the snapshot files to be sure.

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Ok thanks
But the address did not have any BTS yet at the time of the snapshot.
So it will know I was entitled to have it at that time?


Offline toast

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2015, 07:28:27 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc

PLAYshares (PLS) allocations: 35 % will go to BTS holders on December 8, 2014 12:00 PM (UTC).

Sparkle had a snapshot on December 14th, 2014 and will honor AGS, PTS, and BTS with 33% each.

....

My bad, I didn't know PLS wasn't doing AGS/PTS. My personal suggestion is to drop on AGS/PTS because that's still a better demographic than BTS at the moment. But I have no control over what 3rd party devs do.

Holding PTS entitled me to get my share from the VOTE/DNS merger. I was entitled to BTS from this merger on december 8, however I didn't receive them yet.
So I won't get PLS?

Yes you will, snapshots don't care whether you opened your wallet or not. Addresses are addresses. You can check the snapshot files to be sure.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline graffenwalder

Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2015, 07:06:17 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc

PLAYshares (PLS) allocations: 35 % will go to BTS holders on December 8, 2014 12:00 PM (UTC).

Sparkle had a snapshot on December 14th, 2014 and will honor AGS, PTS, and BTS with 33% each.

....

My bad, I didn't know PLS wasn't doing AGS/PTS. My personal suggestion is to drop on AGS/PTS because that's still a better demographic than BTS at the moment. But I have no control over what 3rd party devs do.

Holding PTS entitled me to get my share from the VOTE/DNS merger. I was entitled to BTS from this merger on december 8, however I didn't receive them yet.
So I won't get PLS?
I don't know where you guys are getting your information but PLS:
35% BTS 10% PTS 10% AGS, and the rest for crowdfunding and development etc...

Offline Bitty

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2015, 07:24:10 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc

PLAYshares (PLS) allocations: 35 % will go to BTS holders on December 8, 2014 12:00 PM (UTC).

Sparkle had a snapshot on December 14th, 2014 and will honor AGS, PTS, and BTS with 33% each.

....

My bad, I didn't know PLS wasn't doing AGS/PTS. My personal suggestion is to drop on AGS/PTS because that's still a better demographic than BTS at the moment. But I have no control over what 3rd party devs do.

Holding PTS entitled me to get my share from the VOTE/DNS merger. I was entitled to BTS from this merger on december 8, however I didn't receive them yet.
So I won't get PLS?

Offline gamey

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2015, 07:34:28 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.

FOR: diversification is never a dumb choice.

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I do not agree. I can think of many instances where the greatest expected return is from betting on one winner over spreading out your bet (or investment, if you prefer).

For instance, if you buy every ticket in a lottery - you have lost for sure (your cost exceeds your winnings). In fact, according to accountants, your greatest expected return on investment comes from buying exactly one ticket.

In a horse race, it is more lucrative to pick one winner over spreading out the bets over several horses in the same race.

Where diversification might be valuable is when you spread out your investment into different sectors, so that if one sector goes down, another sector is likely to go up. But BTS and PTS are hardly in different sectors. In fact I would say that the success of PTS is dependent on success of BTS. If DPOS fails in bitshares, it will surely fail in protoshares.

PTS haters going to be out in full force around here. PTS is as legitimate as any a lot of other coins floating around. Who knows who or what will sharedrop to it.  I see cybershares is trying to do the same thing (??) but they're just sticking in their own addresses with large balances.  PTS was mined for distribution.

As far as diversifying against BTS there is some merit, but if you want to diversify there are probably a couple better spots that have the largest chance of outrunning the pack.

I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline toast

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2015, 10:38:34 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc

PLAYshares (PLS) allocations: 35 % will go to BTS holders on December 8, 2014 12:00 PM (UTC).

Sparkle had a snapshot on December 14th, 2014 and will honor AGS, PTS, and BTS with 33% each.

....

My bad, I didn't know PLS wasn't doing AGS/PTS. My personal suggestion is to drop on AGS/PTS because that's still a better demographic than BTS at the moment. But I have no control over what 3rd party devs do.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline dritz3r

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2015, 10:26:58 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc

PLAYshares (PLS) allocations: 35 % will go to BTS holders on December 8, 2014 12:00 PM (UTC).

Sparkle had a snapshot on December 14th, 2014 and will honor AGS, PTS, and BTS with 33% each.

....

Offline dritz3r

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2015, 10:05:30 pm »
You at BitShares co. are ignorants and simply not fair. The change of plan was VERY unfair to PTS/AGS holders (post feb-28). On other side (pre feb-28)  holders received additional BTS in the "merger"which is why PTS and AGS now looks ridiculous.

Offline toast

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2015, 09:44:05 pm »
There's no "new consensus", it seems everyone is happily ignoring dan's suggestion to drop on BTS. RPC, sparkle, play, etc
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline dritz3r

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2015, 09:42:36 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

What is TBD? Haven't seen that yet…

TBD is "To Be Determined".  Things that haven't been announced or even conceived yet.

Sorry Stan.  There are wery little place for AGS investors in future DACs. That was not part of the plan. BTS become main target for shares drops even now when some of us didn't received any BTS. You changed yours 'social consensus' and I can't even sell my worthless AGS. At the same time I am forced to 'enjoy' in new consensus. Thanks.

lzr1900

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2015, 03:33:32 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

What is TBD? Haven't seen that yet…

TBD is "To Be Determined".  Things that haven't been announced or even conceived yet.
hehehe..let me remind you,it is 1.12 now. 11.5 snapshot was 2 months ago!!!
What about "big thing"?What about #2 marketcap?What about Superdac?
WE CAN'T EVEN GET OUR VESTED BALANCE AFTER 2 MONTHS!????
all and all 3I said is purely imaginary,Utopia.
Look at the price,you will know how frustrated we are.

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2015, 03:07:08 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

What is TBD? Haven't seen that yet…

TBD is "To Be Determined".  Things that haven't been announced or even conceived yet.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Bitty

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2015, 03:02:22 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

Hi Stan

Did you already received the BTS you were entitled to from the merger of VOTE/DNS and PTS?

thanks

Whatever it is, it's the same rules as everyone else.  I just HODL whatever comes in.
I haven't taken the time even think about what I'm supposed to be getting or even imported a cold storage wallet to have a look.

As Kenny Rogers once sang,

You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

 :)

Yes, I will also HODL.
However I would like to have a clear overview of my portfolio and the things I am entitled to. ;-)

Offline Bitty

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2015, 03:01:13 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

What is TBD? Haven't seen that yet…

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2015, 02:16:46 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

Hi Stan

Did you already received the BTS you were entitled to from the merger of VOTE/DNS and PTS?

thanks

Whatever it is, it's the same rules as everyone else.  I just HODL whatever comes in.
I haven't taken the time even think about what I'm supposed to be getting or even imported a cold storage wallet to have a look.

As Kenny Rogers once sang,

You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

 :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Bitty

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2015, 06:50:05 am »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)

Hi Stan

Did you already received the BTS you were entitled to from the merger of VOTE/DNS and PTS?

thanks

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2015, 05:10:43 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

I am a BIG late AGS donor and so are my mother, brother, wife and son.  We got a much better scale factor than as early donors.   From that we have shares in BTS, PLAY, MUSIC, PTS, Sparkle, (VOTE, DNS) and TBD.   I feel excitement and great expectations.

:)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 06:06:12 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline dritz3r

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2015, 04:51:54 pm »
I'am AGS holder and I feel more and more stupid every day for investing in DACs (BitShares) development. I was attracted by VOTE DAC, and other future DACs. To be perfectly clear I invested after Feb 28. and I didn't get any BTS. I know I will, but then again, the same amount will be distributed to pre Feb 28 investor (again). It seems that everybody try to forget ('late') AGS donors. I feel pain in my stomach every time I read about BTS and come here for news.

Offline testz

Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2015, 11:21:55 am »
Is there anybody that can help importing the PTS wallet key into the latest OSX bitshares client?
The balance keeps on being 0.5 BTS…..

You can import whole wallet.dat as described here http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/BitShares/Howto
It's instruction for BitShares but for PTS-DPOS all stay same.

Offline Bitty

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2015, 05:20:51 am »
Is there anybody that can help importing the PTS wallet key into the latest OSX bitshares client?
The balance keeps on being 0.5 BTS…..

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2014, 11:29:54 pm »
The question of whether or not PTS is a good sharedrop target for future devs probably comes down to a question of whether or not BTS would make a better sharedrop target.

In my opinion, the answer to that question depends on whether or not upcoming DACs will view themselves as competitors to BTS or not. Especially if some upcoming DACs end up not using the BTS toolkit and something other than DPOS for security.

If they're distinct enough, like PLAY and MUSIC, to not feel threatened by the existence of BTS, then I think BTS is a better sharedrop target because it includes AGS and all the early PTS holders from before the giant sell off, not to mention all the peeps who just got in on this from the recent marketing pushes.

However, if BTS is not deemed a suitable sharedrop target, then I see some developers maybe looking to PTS for this. But that depends on the goals of the developers of PTS too.

PTS was simple before going DPOS. A proof of work coin, just like Bitcoin, it's sole purpose, it's raison d'etre was to be sharedropped upon. Fair enough.

Now PTS has DPOS, so it's ambitions depend on the what the shareholders want done with it, as well as the devs.

This means, that they might end up marketing it as a deflationary currency (no longer exclusively just a sharedrop target). They might end up adding new features in the future that obfuscates the true purpose of PTS. PTS may gain value for reasons other than sharedropping, in which case the arguments for it being a valid sharedrop target wouldn't be as strong as they previously were.

With so many people selling off, I feel like PTS has to reestablish itself as a sharedrop coin if it wants to be taken seriously as such.

Or, future developers might just say "this is too complicated, screw it." Make their own sharedrop token and distribute it months before their DAC, then let the token die after serving it's purpose. Or come up with a different, unforeseen system of distribution all together.

So the way I see it, whether PTS is used as a sharedrop target or not depends largely on how it's marketed, and how it's received by DACs in the near future. Have the Devs said anything much about their intentions for PTS?

I very much support the idea of a deflationary coin. I would buy a coin that's marketed just for that. I'm not sure if I want to buy PTS for that if it's not being marketed specifically for that feature though.

I very much support the idea of a sharedrop target. If the coin's made for that and has established a precedent. OLD PTS had that precedent, and the corresponding holders. New PTS has to come up with a way to re-ingratiate itself in people's minds as a sharedrop target.

If it were aiming for either of these benefits exclusively PTS would be a no brainer, but as things currently stand the future of PTS is really hazy. That's why the decision of how much I want to focus on buying PTS is really giving me a hard time.

Too many "what if's" where PTS is concerned, and I'm having trouble making sense of it.

Offline ekremboz1

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2014, 01:22:52 pm »
I have understood correctly you think PTS dumping coin

Offline biophil

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2014, 11:28:59 pm »
Using this logic, PTS & AGS is already 'included' in the Music DAC (at 35%),  thus sharedropping on the Music DAC would achieve the ends of getting hold of PTS holders.

It would but not BTS holders.

BTS covers the full spectrum.

The problem is that nobody in their right mind would sharedrop on BTS (I know, PLAY and Sparkle just did; that's because they were founded by community members).

This is why:

I know there are a lot around here who disagree with me (Stan being one of them), but I expect that sharedropping large quantities on a functioning coin is unlikely to be effective. If I were launching a coin, I would never sharedrop on BTS because I would expect BTS holders to claim their sharedrop, sell it, and put the money back into BTS. People hold BTS (or any other coin) because they believe it's the best place for their money; why would you expect them to suddenly change their minds and keep a stake in your little upstart, especially since you're likely attempting to compete with them?

People around here like to talk about good sharedrop targets being ones with strong network effects, but a strong network effect may also be an indicator of tribalism and xenophobia (see the Nxt community for extreme examples of this), which will only lead to dumping.
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sumantso

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2014, 11:45:54 am »
Using this logic, PTS & AGS is already 'included' in the Music DAC (at 35%),  thus sharedropping on the Music DAC would achieve the ends of getting hold of PTS holders.

It would but not BTS holders.

BTS covers the full spectrum.

Offline bigt

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2014, 09:56:10 am »
BTS holders will have an interest in any DAC that is a good proposal and BTS will be a large variety of types of interest, so would seem to be the most ideal.
There is a case to be made for Sharedropping on BTS also, I just feel the case for Sharedropping on PTS is more compelling.

By dint of the inflation, PTS is already included in BTs. As such, sharedropping on BTS gets hold of everybody - BTS, PTS & AGS.

Using this logic, PTS & AGS is already 'included' in the Music DAC (at 35%),  thus sharedropping on the Music DAC would achieve the ends of getting hold of PTS holders. However this would only capture PTS holders at the time of those snapshots - PTS is designed to be liquid.


My view is that third party developers would be better served getting a snapshot of PTS holders at a future date. This would better reflect PTS holders with an active interest in third party DACs now, and would enable others interested in getting a stake in a new DAC early to do so in the cleanest manner.


In the end of the day it's a voluntary arrangement, all anyone can do is make the argument. It will be for third party developers to decide.

sumantso

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2014, 10:22:50 pm »
BTS holders will have an interest in any DAC that is a good proposal and BTS will be a large variety of types of interest, so would seem to be the most ideal.
There is a case to be made for Sharedropping on BTS also, I just feel the case for Sharedropping on PTS is more compelling.

By dint of the inflation, PTS is already included in BTs. As such, sharedropping on BTS gets hold of everybody - BTS, PTS & AGS.

Offline bigt

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2014, 08:42:11 pm »
You could buy 1% for 15.3 BTC..
I don't see 10m PTS sell orders at 150 sat or less on the exchanges. There is very little trading or volume at these prices, (which is understandable given (a) it's a bear market for all cryptocurrencies and (b) the uncertainty surrounding PTS). Based on current activity levels, a buy order of 5 BTC at 150 sat would struggle to get filled, let alone 15 BTC. Majority of PTS holders appear to be holding.


BTS holders will have an interest in any DAC that is a good proposal and BTS will be a large variety of types of interest, so would seem to be the most ideal.
There is a case to be made for Sharedropping on BTS also, I just feel the case for Sharedropping on PTS is more compelling.


PTS is a gamble and might just create whales..
Not sure how PTS is any more susceptible to whales than any other crypto-currency.


Offline bigt

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2014, 08:07:24 pm »
why do you feel that AGS holders would be less likely to have an active interest in any given new DAC than PTS holders?

I think many AGS holders will have an active interest however PTS has the advantage of being a more liquid market. PTS holders that no longer have an active interest in new DACs can easily cash out and be replaced by others with a greater interest.


I do think there is value in Sharedropping on all three groups (BTS, PTS and AGS). I just feel PTS has the most compelling case. I don't quite follow the argument that suggests PTS should be killed off.



Offline davidpbrown

Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2014, 05:47:16 pm »
  • PTS - 'Liquid' investors. By this I mean, the majority of PTS holders will have an active interest in investing in Third Party DACs, right here and now. At the time of your snapshot, a large portion of PTS will have a very active interest in your DAC.

The price of PTS right now makes me cynical about the spread of holders. You could buy 1% for 15.3 BTC.. I've not looked at the depth on the sell side, so perhaps would be more but still.

BTS holders will have an interest in any DAC that is a good proposal and BTS will be a large variety of types of interest, so would seem to be the most ideal. PTS is a gamble and might just create whales.. that can be useful too, especially if those are still core ye olde dev types.
฿://1CBxm54Ah5hiYxiUtD7JGYRXykT5Z6ZuMc

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2014, 05:37:50 pm »
I usually only check these threads to keep abreast of major Bitshares announcements however I've felt compelled to post on the recent PTS developments.


First off, I'm really happy that PTS has been upgraded to DPOS. The old wallet was a pain to use! I look forward to an OSX release of the new wallet to get my teeth into.


Secondly, I have a message for Third Party Developers:
  • Sharedropping onto PTS is the perfect launchpad for a third party DAC.
  • People like me hold PTS for the sole purpose of getting a stake in new, exciting, innovative DACs.
  • If you wish to target investors and early adopters that will champion the best new DACs, look to PTS.
  • People like me will look to invest in your DAC and stick around for the long haul
  • If your DAC has wider crypto appeal, you will see this will be reflected in the trade price of PTS around the time of your snapshot. Some see this as a negative. However it is the free market responding to the perceived utility of your DAC. The price spike and related interest will only serve to promote your offering to a wider audience.
To my mind there are 3 demographics you may wish to consider Sharedropping to:
  • BTS - holders will be primarily using the BTSX/ VOTE/ DNS offering. They may have an interest in your DAC. But for the majority this interest will be incidental to the main purpose of them holding BTS.
  • AGS - Founder investors, who again may have an interest in your DAC.
  • PTS - 'Liquid' investors. By this I mean, the majority of PTS holders will have an active interest in investing in Third Party DACs, right here and now. At the time of your snapshot, a large portion of PTS will have a very active interest in your DAC.
The beauty of PTS is that should I fall in love with your new DAC, cash out of PTS and go all-in on your new venture - I will be replaced by fresh blood looking to invest in new Third Party DACs.


This is just my perspective and an insight into why I feel PTS is a tremendous and unique proposition in the Bitshares landscape. I hope it not only sticks around but grows stronger.

welcome out of lurker status and thanks for your perspective.

why do you feel that AGS holders would be less likely to have an active interest in any given new DAC than PTS holders?

Offline bigt

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2014, 11:02:05 am »
I usually only check these threads to keep abreast of major Bitshares announcements however I've felt compelled to post on the recent PTS developments.


First off, I'm really happy that PTS has been upgraded to DPOS. The old wallet was a pain to use! I look forward to an OSX release of the new wallet to get my teeth into.


Secondly, I have a message for Third Party Developers:
  • Sharedropping onto PTS is the perfect launchpad for a third party DAC.
  • People like me hold PTS for the sole purpose of getting a stake in new, exciting, innovative DACs.
  • If you wish to target investors and early adopters that will champion the best new DACs, look to PTS.
  • People like me will look to invest in your DAC and stick around for the long haul
  • If your DAC has wider crypto appeal, you will see this will be reflected in the trade price of PTS around the time of your snapshot. Some see this as a negative. However it is the free market responding to the perceived utility of your DAC. The price spike and related interest will only serve to promote your offering to a wider audience.
To my mind there are 3 demographics you may wish to consider Sharedropping to:
  • BTS - holders will be primarily using the BTSX/ VOTE/ DNS offering. They may have an interest in your DAC. But for the majority this interest will be incidental to the main purpose of them holding BTS.
  • AGS - Founder investors, who again may have an interest in your DAC.
  • PTS - 'Liquid' investors. By this I mean, the majority of PTS holders will have an active interest in investing in Third Party DACs, right here and now. At the time of your snapshot, a large portion of PTS will have a very active interest in your DAC.
The beauty of PTS is that should I fall in love with your new DAC, cash out of PTS and go all-in on your new venture - I will be replaced by fresh blood looking to invest in new Third Party DACs.


This is just my perspective and an insight into why I feel PTS is a tremendous and unique proposition in the Bitshares landscape. I hope it not only sticks around but grows stronger.

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2014, 03:59:16 am »
If the developers plan to keep it deflationary forever, I think I'm going to buy a little because of that property.


As to whether it should be a sharedrop target or not, I don't think it should be. But we'll see what the social consensus turns out to be.

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2014, 03:54:57 am »
alphaBar is saying there was no change. Stan is saying they expected it to die but it pulled a jesus with a third party dev.

So most people think the social consensus should stay with the new PTS dac?

Personally, I think I would like to simplify it, use the toolkit, sharedrop on BTS. get everybody behind the same currency.

But if people think its good to roll with the new DAC in place of the old, I'll start buying some more PTS.

I'm saying (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12664.msg167111#msg167111) that we need to stop thinking about dictating what consensus we are going to bless and start working as stakeholders to be a preferred target of a share drop.  The chain that gets picked most by developers becomes the de facto consensus.  There is no one else who can declare what it is by fiat.

Ask yourself what it takes to be the most preferred sharedrop target and start inventing ways to incentivize developers to court you.

It's not so much worrying about what consensus we are going to bless than how I'm going to allocate the money I have available to invest. What the social consensus is or isn't seems pertinent to that decision to me.

Nothing wrong with a little price speculation, right?

I could drop the subject if you would like me to though.

No, you are asking exactly the right questions. 

If you want to be dropped on, you need to invest in a chain that represents a demographic that is able to attract developer drops.
So chains that make the best case for attracting developers will also attract investors like you.

But the day of just decreeing that a chain should be chosen is now gone.  Its gotten competitive.  We need to rise to the challenge.

That means AGSers and PTSers need to come out of the woodwork and make their case for why they should continue to be considered - or be forgotten.

And that means BTSers need to make their case too.

I'm a member of all three demographics. 
I've listed elsewhere why I think all three have a good case. 
But what I think no longer matters.
What matters is what other developers find attractive.
Be attractive.
 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 04:01:00 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2014, 03:33:00 am »
alphaBar is saying there was no change. Stan is saying they expected it to die but it pulled a jesus with a third party dev.

So most people think the social consensus should stay with the new PTS dac?

Personally, I think I would like to simplify it, use the toolkit, sharedrop on BTS. get everybody behind the same currency.

But if people think its good to roll with the new DAC in place of the old, I'll start buying some more PTS.

I'm saying (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12664.msg167111#msg167111) that we need to stop thinking about dictating what consensus we are going to bless and start working as stakeholders to be a preferred target of a share drop.  The chain that gets picked most by developers becomes the de facto consensus.  There is no one else who can declare what it is by fiat.

Ask yourself what it takes to be the most preferred sharedrop target and start inventing ways to incentivize developers to court you.

It's not so much worrying about what consensus we are going to bless than how I'm going to allocate the money I have available to invest. What the social consensus is or isn't seems pertinent to that decision to me.

Nothing wrong with a little price speculation, right?

I could drop the subject if you would like me to though.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 03:35:32 am by merockstar »

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2014, 02:55:43 am »
alphaBar is saying there was no change. Stan is saying they expected it to die but it pulled a jesus with a third party dev.

So most people think the social consensus should stay with the new PTS dac?

Personally, I think I would like to simplify it, use the toolkit, sharedrop on BTS. get everybody behind the same currency.

But if people think its good to roll with the new DAC in place of the old, I'll start buying some more PTS.

I'm saying (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12664.msg167111#msg167111) that we need to stop thinking about dictating what consensus we are going to bless and start working as stakeholders to be a preferred target of a share drop.  The chain that gets picked most by developers becomes the de facto consensus.  There is no one else who can declare what it is by fiat.

Ask yourself what it takes to be the most preferred sharedrop target and start inventing ways to incentivize developers to court you.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 02:59:33 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2014, 02:46:09 am »
alphaBar is saying there was no change. Stan is saying they expected it to die but it pulled a jesus with a third party dev.

So most people think the social consensus should stay with the new PTS dac?

Personally, I think I would like to simplify it, use the toolkit, sharedrop on BTS. get everybody behind the same currency.

But if people think its good to roll with the new DAC in place of the old, I'll start buying some more PTS.

Offline jwiz168

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2014, 05:44:46 pm »
As I have stated , its well and good that still PTS does its role in the development of future DACs. But this is up to the third party's decision to honor.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2014, 04:48:01 pm »
To summarize: there was no change to the social consensus and there was no "buyout" of PTS (confirmed, yet again, in today's Mumble session). PTS and the social consensus live on.

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2014, 03:19:06 pm »
Now that the gray area regarding what the social consensus has become, and how PTS relates to that has been clarified I would like to point this thread back to the original topic again.

Do you guys think future developers are likely to honor PTS? Why or why not?

If future developers wish to tap into investors, whose primary interest is investing in new and innovative Bitshares DACs, then they should honour PTS.

To my mind, there is a clear demarcation between BTS (the Invictus 'SuperDAC') and PTS (a mechanism by which people can invest in future 'third party' Bitshares DACs).

My investment in BTS is proportionate to my belief in the success of the BTS DAC.

My investment in PTS is proportionate to my belief that (a) there are/ will be developers out there creating future Bitshares DACs and (b) these developers will target PTS holders with a sharedrop in accordance with the social consensus. They will also target this demographic in the knowledge that PTS holders have a track record of evaluating the value propositions of a variety of Bitshares DACs (e.g. BTS, Music, Play, Sparkle etc.) and taking informed decisions on whether to invest further in their enterprise.

Obviously, developers are (and always have been) free to Sharedrop as they wish. However from what I've read and understood from the posts over the last few months, there is nothing to suggest a change the social consensus. From what I can tell, PTS is not only alive and well but has been upgraded, with most (including the exchanges) accepting the upgrade to DPOS-PTS.

 +5%  My thoughts exactly.

Again, BTS did not buy out PTS; it simply honored its share of the consensus.
BTS username/address:   kingslanding9999

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2014, 02:49:13 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Upon further reflection, without I3 there is no social consensus anymore, is there? The support of the community while the social consensus existed basically meant backing from I3, but without I3 support the community will naturally support whatever DACs they feel aren't screwing them, I am understanding this correctly, Stan? I read both the newsletter but didn't see the idea of social consensus directly addressed.

I3 took the initiative to help the community evolve its social consensus during the early phases but ultimately it is the community's job to maintain or evolve the consensus over time.  I3 alumni will still be here as free lance contributors, and we will have gradually diverging opinions, but the consensus will be whatever the community can cause developers to perceive is in their best interest to honor.

We have proposed no changes to that consensus and have continued to honor it.  From before the very first Feb 28th snapshot we have supported the concept of honoring the PTS/AGS proto-DAC grandparents through honoring a parent that had honored those grandparents.  So a new developer would be on solid footing doing it either way -- unless the community makes it clear that their consensus has somehow changed.

Meanwhile, we have tried to encourage developers to honor proto-DACs simply because it is in their own self interest. 

Let me ephasize that.
The consensus will be strongest if developers honor it in their own self-interest.

That's what BitShares Sharedrop Theory is all about.  By recognizing that all the coins of the world represent unique demographics they can choose to precision-target their free samples to groups other than the technically gifted.   You can target Mars colonists and permaculture enthusiasts and dog lovers and entire populations of small arctic nations.

But, if you are a smart developer, you will target people who understand and appreciate your coin and are likely to hold them rather than dump them.  Traditional miners are a notoriously bad demographic precisely because they are in business primarily to mine and dump.

BitShares Sharedrop Theory thus revolutionized the whole concept of how to get a safe and fair distribution while eliminating the last remaining (specious) argument for why you still needed mining.

So, regardless of what we many individually prefer, PTS, AGS, and BTS represent fantastic sharedrop targets each for their own demographic reasons.  AGS are proven donors.  BTS are active users.  PTS are HODL die-hards.

It is up to each developer to put together the coalition of demographics they think will make their product succeed.

Stan,
The only problem with PTS is it should be dead! We paid millions to PTS holders to buy them out and now you and others are saying that they are still eligible for sharedrops.

An example of the broken morality of this:
Coca Cola buys out my stock and buys out the company fron me. Now I have received the payment and I no longer control the company as it has been merged into Coca Cola. Now if I came out and started my stock ticker back up and started selling shares it would be considered securities fraud and a breach of contract with Coca Cola.

I find the PTS situation a very unethical turn of events.

You keep saying that.  I understand the source of your opinion.   Its a perfectly good opinion.  But please don't map it onto me as some sort of morality play.  I have consistently stated my equally valid opinion.  Read all of my posts.  They say the same thing.  I'm most concerned with developing a consistent theory of share drops that can be used to analyze the validity of future sharedrops.  I am also concerned with protecting our rights to float strawman concepts for discussion without them becoming promises.  That is what has happened here.

The newsletter is clear.  PTS was not deemed dead by us.  (It may be deduced from our tone we didn't really expect it to live.) Somebody brought PTS back to life independent of us. We didn't object.  The reborn PTS is a completely different demographic representing people who still support that model.  People who don't  support it dumped it. Its been through a huge demographic sifter.   It is just as much a demographic to consider as doge or marscoin - except it represents people who appreciate DACs and want there to be more of them.  Bingo.   

Sharedrop theory and the social consensus have always been that as long as PTS/AGS (or BTS as a PTS/AGS honoring heir) get their 10% the remaining 80% can be used in an unlimited number of ways to achieve the developer's business objectives.

So if the new BTS consensus is that new DACs should honor BTS with 10 or 20%, that's fine.  It appears that there is solid momentum for that.  But that still leaves at least 80% to be deployed for other strategic purposes.

So, the DevShares sharedrop meets every version of social consensus that has ever existed.

There can be disagreements on what is the best strategy, but please, no heavy rhetorical morality play here.


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline islandking

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2014, 02:05:45 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Upon further reflection, without I3 there is no social consensus anymore, is there? The support of the community while the social consensus existed basically meant backing from I3, but without I3 support the community will naturally support whatever DACs they feel aren't screwing them, I am understanding this correctly, Stan? I read both the newsletter but didn't see the idea of social consensus directly addressed.

I3 took the initiative to help the community evolve its social consensus during the early phases but ultimately it is the community's job to maintain or evolve the consensus over time.  I3 alumni will still be here as free lance contributors, and we will have gradually diverging opinions, but the consensus will be whatever the community can cause developers to perceive is in their best interest to honor.

We have proposed no changes to that consensus and have continued to honor it.  From before the very first Feb 28th snapshot we have supported the concept of honoring the PTS/AGS proto-DAC grandparents through honoring a parent that had honored those grandparents.  So a new developer would be on solid footing doing it either way -- unless the community makes it clear that their consensus has somehow changed.

Meanwhile, we have tried to encourage developers to honor proto-DACs simply because it is in their own self interest. 

Let me ephasize that.
The consensus will be strongest if developers honor it in their own self-interest.

That's what BitShares Sharedrop Theory is all about.  By recognizing that all the coins of the world represent unique demographics they can choose to precision-target their free samples to groups other than the technically gifted.   You can target Mars colonists and permaculture enthusiasts and dog lovers and entire populations of small arctic nations.

But, if you are a smart developer, you will target people who understand and appreciate your coin and are likely to hold them rather than dump them.  Traditional miners are a notoriously bad demographic precisely because they are in business primarily to mine and dump.

BitShares Sharedrop Theory thus revolutionized the whole concept of how to get a safe and fair distribution while eliminating the last remaining (specious) argument for why you still needed mining.

So, regardless of what we many individually prefer, PTS, AGS, and BTS represent fantastic sharedrop targets each for their own demographic reasons.  AGS are proven donors.  BTS are active users.  PTS are HODL die-hards.

It is up to each developer to put together the coalition of demographics they think will make their product succeed.

Stan,
The only problem with PTS is it should be dead! We paid millions to PTS holders to buy them out and now you and others are saying that they are still eligible for sharedrops.

An example of the broken morality of this:
Coca Cola buys out my stock and buys out the company fron me. Now I have received the payment and I no longer control the company as it has been merged into Coca Cola. Now if I came out and started my stock ticker back up and started selling shares it would be considered securities fraud and a breach of contract with Coca Cola.

I find the PTS situation a very unethical turn of events.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 02:26:07 pm by islandking »
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Offline bigt

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2014, 11:46:35 am »
Now that the gray area regarding what the social consensus has become, and how PTS relates to that has been clarified I would like to point this thread back to the original topic again.

Do you guys think future developers are likely to honor PTS? Why or why not?

If future developers wish to tap into investors, whose primary interest is investing in new and innovative Bitshares DACs, then they should honour PTS.

To my mind, there is a clear demarcation between BTS (the Invictus 'SuperDAC') and PTS (a mechanism by which people can invest in future 'third party' Bitshares DACs).

My investment in BTS is proportionate to my belief in the success of the BTS DAC.

My investment in PTS is proportionate to my belief that (a) there are/ will be developers out there creating future Bitshares DACs and (b) these developers will target PTS holders with a sharedrop in accordance with the social consensus. They will also target this demographic in the knowledge that PTS holders have a track record of evaluating the value propositions of a variety of Bitshares DACs (e.g. BTS, Music, Play, Sparkle etc.) and taking informed decisions on whether to invest further in their enterprise.

Obviously, developers are (and always have been) free to Sharedrop as they wish. However from what I've read and understood from the posts over the last few months, there is nothing to suggest a change the social consensus. From what I can tell, PTS is not only alive and well but has been upgraded, with most (including the exchanges) accepting the upgrade to DPOS-PTS.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 01:19:04 pm by bigt »

Offline jwiz168

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2014, 01:01:01 am »
Being  a DPOS, pts becomes a DAC IMHO. Any developer may use it as asset for their project or it continues to be an altcoin in an exchange. The fact is it had built the framework for currency and DAC model. To me, I would hold my PTS but NEVER reinvest simply because I think I have enough. There are still numerous DACs will exist. Now my focus is on BTS because this is the current direction for further development of advanced DAC.

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2014, 12:26:58 am »
Now that the gray area regarding what the social consensus has become, and how PTS relates to that has been clarified I would like to point this thread back to the original topic again.

Do you guys think future developers are likely to honor PTS? Why or why not?

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2014, 11:18:12 pm »
I never saw the BTS snapshot as AGS/PTS being bought out.  AGS/PTS holders were given BTS because of the social contract for DNS and VOTE.  BTS is a dac, just like MUSIC and PLAY, although a big one.  So it should be perfectly fine & "fair" for future dacs to still honor the 10% to AGS/PTS holders.  As Stan said, it's up to the new dacs to decide on how to best distribute.  If people think only BTS holders should be honored, then I argue MUSIC and PLAY holders would have to be considered as well.  They are all dacs.
BTS username/address:   kingslanding9999

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2014, 10:12:17 pm »
This is messed up and sad. I bought PTS way early when it was still called protoshares. I ended up making a very good profit in terms of Bitshare, but then didn't sell. Before that music DAC snapshot happened, I sold all my Bitshare into PTS. Then I held PTS for a while and it completely tanked to unimaginable lows. A fraction of a cent. 500 dollars became 120 dollars became 30 dollars became 50 cents.

This is completely irresponsible. I feel I've been kept completely out of the loop. The cryptocurrency world is completely fucking disgusting. This shit will never take off without any government backing it to hold someone accountable for fraud such as this. Good luck.

Have a nice day.

The unique characteristics of PTS you refer to have been well-understood and appreciated by this community for a long time.  Check out this article from last February - before the very first PTS snapshot.


Every aspect of every issue has been discussed here and analyzed in hundreds of posts and blog articles and interviews and mumble meetings since the beginning.

How exactly were you kept out of the loop?
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline jwiz168

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2014, 10:09:38 pm »
Since developers have option of what to use for sharedropping, well and good . AGS and PTS have retained its purpose and the new player BTS is the most innovative of the 3 ( and probably the most consensus) , investors are presented with unique way of diversification. It's a win-win situation eventhough some of early concepts of AGS/PTS 10% DAC's share distributions have been diluted in favor of BTS. Now my understanding is clear as to what Bitshares has to offer in the future, might as well plan for the best. The 2014 is year of Bitshares, because it has helped me set a goal of achieving financial freedom in such a short time and I am very much confident with it and hope one day Bitshares may evolve into a thing that we cannot leave home without it as they say.

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2014, 09:46:01 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Upon further reflection, without I3 there is no social consensus anymore, is there? The support of the community while the social consensus existed basically meant backing from I3, but without I3 support the community will naturally support whatever DACs they feel aren't screwing them, I am understanding this correctly, Stan? I read both the newsletter but didn't see the idea of social consensus directly addressed.

I3 took the initiative to help the community evolve its social consensus during the early phases but ultimately it is the community's job to maintain or evolve the consensus over time.  I3 alumni will still be here as free lance contributors, and we will have gradually diverging opinions, but the consensus will be whatever the community can cause developers to perceive is in their best interest to honor.

We have proposed no changes to that consensus and have continued to honor it.  From before the very first Feb 28th snapshot we have supported the concept of honoring the PTS/AGS proto-DAC grandparents through honoring a parent that had honored those grandparents.  So a new developer would be on solid footing doing it either way -- unless the community makes it clear that their consensus has somehow changed.

Meanwhile, we have tried to encourage developers to honor proto-DACs simply because it is in their own self interest. 

Let me ephasize that.
The consensus will be strongest if developers honor it in their own self-interest.

That's what BitShares Sharedrop Theory is all about.  By recognizing that all the coins of the world represent unique demographics they can choose to precision-target their free samples to groups other than the technically gifted.   You can target Mars colonists and permaculture enthusiasts and dog lovers and entire populations of small arctic nations.

But, if you are a smart developer, you will target people who understand and appreciate your coin and are likely to hold them rather than dump them.  Traditional miners are a notoriously bad demographic precisely because they are in business primarily to mine and dump.

BitShares Sharedrop Theory thus revolutionized the whole concept of how to get a safe and fair distribution while eliminating the last remaining (specious) argument for why you still needed mining.

So, regardless of what we many individually prefer, PTS, AGS, and BTS represent fantastic sharedrop targets each for their own demographic reasons.  AGS are proven donors.  BTS are active users.  PTS are HODL die-hards.

It is up to each developer to put together the coalition of demographics they think will make their product succeed.




« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 09:55:07 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline zavtra

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2014, 09:37:36 pm »
This is messed up and sad. I bought PTS way early when it was still called protoshares. I ended up making a very good profit in terms of Bitshare, but then didn't sell. Before that music DAC snapshot happened, I sold all my Bitshare into PTS. Then I held PTS for a while and it completely tanked to unimaginable lows. A fraction of a cent. 500 dollars became 120 dollars became 30 dollars became 50 cents.

This is completely irresponsible. I feel I've been kept completely out of the loop. The cryptocurrency world is completely fucking disgusting. This shit will never take off without any government backing it to hold someone accountable for fraud such as this. Good luck.

Have a nice day.

sumantso

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 09:34:36 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Upon further reflection, without I3 there is no social consensus anymore, is there? The support of the community while the social consensus existed basically meant backing from I3, but without I3 support the community will naturally support whatever DACs they feel aren't screwing them, I am understanding this correctly, Stan? I read both the newsletter but didn't see the idea of social consensus directly addressed.

Riverhead's analysis https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11980.msg160532#msg160532

Quote
So, not that my opinion means a whole lot (I also have zero legal training), it seems clear that, based on the below software license for the Bitshares Toolkit and the above Social Contract of Invictus:

 1) The Social Consensus Software License clearly states that anyone using the Invictus blockchain must give 10% PTS/AGS.  So for the social contract if the Bitshares blockchain is also considered the Invictus blockchain (Aug 2013 was before DPoS was a twinkle in Dan's eye) then PTS either allocates AGS 10% or is in violation of the social contract.

2) According to the Software License in the current Bitshares github repository PTS can use the toolkit legally (whatever that means in this context) without any requirement to give anyone anything.

This creates a bit of a paradox. If the Social Consensus Software License died with Invictus than PTS doesn't need to honor it. However, if it is the case that PTS doesn't need to honor it because it died with Invictus than PTS has no reason for being because the social consensus is dead. Or at least it would have no teeth.

So, um, ya. Given all that I feel since PTS is using the blockchain and wants future DACs to honor to Social Contract (i.e. taking the position it lives beyond Invictus' timely demise) than PTS needs to give AGS 10% of permanent allocation or be in violation of the Social Contract but not the software license.

Further more the Social Contract lives on, at least in spirit, as exampled by PLAY, MUSIC, and BTS.

https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares/blob/master/LICENSE.md

IMO, whatever form of social consensus could've survived was killed by alphabar PTS.

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2014, 07:46:55 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Upon further reflection, without I3 there is no social consensus anymore, is there? The support of the community while the social consensus existed basically meant backing from I3, but without I3 support the community will naturally support whatever DACs they feel aren't screwing them, I am understanding this correctly, Stan? I read both the newsletter but didn't see the idea of social consensus directly addressed.

Offline onceuponatime

Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2014, 01:50:52 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.

FOR: diversification is never a dumb choice.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

I do not agree. I can think of many instances where the greatest expected return is from betting on one winner over spreading out your bet (or investment, if you prefer).

For instance, if you buy every ticket in a lottery - you have lost for sure (your cost exceeds your winnings). In fact, according to accountants, your greatest expected return on investment comes from buying exactly one ticket.

In a horse race, it is more lucrative to pick one winner over spreading out the bets over several horses in the same race.

Where diversification might be valuable is when you spread out your investment into different sectors, so that if one sector goes down, another sector is likely to go up. But BTS and PTS are hardly in different sectors. In fact I would say that the success of PTS is dependent on success of BTS. If DPOS fails in bitshares, it will surely fail in protoshares.

Your definition of the word "expected" must be different than mine.

In any case, your examples (horseracing and lotteries) are zero-sum games with a house edge. Real economic settings like cryptocurrencies are generally not zero-sum games.

If PTS gains some traction as a sharedrop target (big if, I'm well aware) it will have very low short-term price correlation to BTS due to the snapshot price swing cycle.

It's probably true that long-term correlation between PTS and BTS will be high, but that's not really what interests me about PTS.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


DEFINITION of 'Expected Value'

Anticipated value for a given investment. In statistics and probability analysis, expected value is calculated by multiplying each of the possible outcomes by the likelihood that each outcome will occur, and summing all of those values. By calculating expected values, investors can choose the scenario that is most likely to give them their desired outcome.

INVESTOPEDIA EXPLAINS 'Expected Value'

Scenario analysis is one technique for calculating the expected value of an investment opportunity. It uses estimated probabilities with multivariate models, to examine possible outcomes for a proposed investment. Scenario analysis also helps investors determine whether they are taking on an appropriate level of risk, given the likely outcome of the investment.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/expected-value.asp

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2014, 01:25:39 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Previously it did.

Then there was a merger where PTS and AGS got "bought out" by BTS, and the devs killed I3 and switched to being delegates for compensation.

And now I have no idea if there's even a social consensus anymore because it all happened so fast during a busy time for me.

Read the December (out today) and Halloween newsletters for all the details.

ty stan. i will get right on that.

Offline Stan

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2014, 01:16:44 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Previously it did.

Then there was a merger where PTS and AGS got "bought out" by BTS, and the devs killed I3 and switched to being delegates for compensation.

And now I have no idea if there's even a social consensus anymore because it all happened so fast during a busy time for me.

Read the December (out today) and Halloween newsletters for all the details.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

merockstar

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 01:10:20 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Previously it did.

Then there was a merger where PTS and AGS got "bought out" by BTS, and the devs killed I3 and switched to being delegates for compensation.

And now I have no idea if there's even a social consensus anymore because it all happened so fast during a busy time for me.

Offline jwiz168

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 12:57:40 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.


Isn't it that social contract of I3 states that for every DAC being developed using DPOS has at least 10%AGS and 10%PTS? Please correct me if I am not inform with BTS being included.

Offline biophil

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 12:47:00 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.

FOR: diversification is never a dumb choice.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

I do not agree. I can think of many instances where the greatest expected return is from betting on one winner over spreading out your bet (or investment, if you prefer).

For instance, if you buy every ticket in a lottery - you have lost for sure (your cost exceeds your winnings). In fact, according to accountants, your greatest expected return on investment comes from buying exactly one ticket.

In a horse race, it is more lucrative to pick one winner over spreading out the bets over several horses in the same race.

Where diversification might be valuable is when you spread out your investment into different sectors, so that if one sector goes down, another sector is likely to go up. But BTS and PTS are hardly in different sectors. In fact I would say that the success of PTS is dependent on success of BTS. If DPOS fails in bitshares, it will surely fail in protoshares.

Your definition of the word "expected" must be different than mine.

In any case, your examples (horseracing and lotteries) are zero-sum games with a house edge. Real economic settings like cryptocurrencies are generally not zero-sum games.

If PTS gains some traction as a sharedrop target (big if, I'm well aware) it will have very low short-term price correlation to BTS due to the snapshot price swing cycle.

It's probably true that long-term correlation between PTS and BTS will be high, but that's not really what interests me about PTS.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Support our research efforts to improve BitAsset price-pegging! Vote for worker 1.14.204 "201907-uccs-research-project."

Offline onceuponatime

Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 12:32:38 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.

FOR: diversification is never a dumb choice.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

I do not agree. I can think of many instances where the greatest expected return is from betting on one winner over spreading out your bet (or investment, if you prefer).

For instance, if you buy every ticket in a lottery - you have lost for sure (your cost exceeds your winnings). In fact, according to accountants, your greatest expected return on investment comes from buying exactly one ticket.

In a horse race, it is more lucrative to pick one winner over spreading out the bets over several horses in the same race.

Where diversification might be valuable is when you spread out your investment into different sectors, so that if one sector goes down, another sector is likely to go up. But BTS and PTS are hardly in different sectors. In fact I would say that the success of PTS is dependent on success of BTS. If DPOS fails in bitshares, it will surely fail in protoshares.

Offline biophil

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 12:08:29 am »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.

FOR: diversification is never a dumb choice.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Support our research efforts to improve BitAsset price-pegging! Vote for worker 1.14.204 "201907-uccs-research-project."

Offline biophil

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Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2014, 12:07:16 am »
I have most of my bids around 100 satoshi. At that price it's hard to argue against picking some up. If some interesting coin ever announces a sharedrop, the price could easily pump 2-3x from there.

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Offline onceuponatime

Re: To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 11:57:29 pm »
AGAINST:

Any funds that you use to buy PTS can then NOT be used to buy BTS.

merockstar

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To buy or not to buy PTS, that is the question.
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 11:49:05 pm »
Sold all my PTS in November.

See the price is pretty cheap right now.

Can't decide if I should jump back in.

I feel like the odds are lower of third parties sharedropping at such a low market cap, especially after the merger, without PTS being an "officially" supported product anymore.

On the other hand, it's deflationary, and it uses DPOS, so it might end up breathing life back into itself.

What are your favorite arguments for or against buying back in?