Author Topic: Angel Shares Feedback Requested  (Read 48498 times)

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Offline killsig

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I believe we have presented the best solution for everyone but the miners who now have to find more productive ways to earn a living.   

  ::)

I guess the first part of me finding a more productive way to earn a living will be dumping PTS.

Offline markzookerburg

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I have been asking about the marketing dudes, exchange and pools since forever and noone took it seriously- am glad someone finally asked this.
bytemaster- please do get your act together and get the marketing dudes on board.

Offline GentleGnome

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Wow, your vision seems to be getting clouded too much by the color green bytemaster. Honestly, I'm thinking of dumping all my PTS right now just because of this. I have a relatively small amount (> 10K) most of it was through mining and some through the exchange. Granted, it cost me hundreds thousands of dollars in mining costs, I did acquire them fairly and in the hopes that the value would go up; however, with this Angel Shares I only see PTS sinking. This move voids trust and is one purely motivated by greed. When the central figure behind something is purely motivated by greed, this tells me I should get the hell out. :)

Offline bytemaster


Currently the market is absorbing about $500K per week.

Including short-term speculation that's a quarter of what you suggested.
While I think that BTS would profit from your idea (what makes me like it, cause i'm in for the long term investment and liking your concepts), I fear it would have serious influence on the market value of pts. It may already have shown that today...


Could we spend $2 million per week.... not initially... but once we had it in the bank I would hire the best managers I could to put together teams dedicated to the following DACs:

0) BitShares
1) DomainShares
2) LuckyShares
3) VoteShares
4) Keyhotee Video / Voice / Chat
5) APShares
6) ... other DACS proposed on this forum.....
7) Mobile Clients...

You gonna hire like 100 people for each project, paying 10k/month to every one of them?
Those numbers seem ridiculous to me...

Well we can change the rate of issuance as that is just a variable.   Is there a better rate?


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Offline bytemaster

Right now we need to realize we are all in this together and rather than argue it would be good to discuss realistic options. 

We can launch something with the funds we have but pts holders will have to do all of the marketing.   

I can work on it over years and produce as much as I can, but if you all want a real marketing budget with nice videos, graphics, and a accelerated schedule then something has got to change. 

I purchased most of our pts.  If I sell to fund development it would suppress the price and we would end up with nothing having given it all away. 

I believe we have presented the best solution for everyone but the miners who now have to find more productive ways to earn a living.   

If there is a better option that can achieve what everyone wants then I will be more than happy to consider it. 




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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline seraphim

Currently the market is absorbing about $500K per week.

Including short-term speculation that's a quarter of what you suggested.
While I think that BTS would profit from your idea (what makes me like it, cause i'm in for the long term investment and liking your concepts), I fear it would have serious influence on the market value of pts. It may already have shown that today...


Could we spend $2 million per week.... not initially... but once we had it in the bank I would hire the best managers I could to put together teams dedicated to the following DACs:

0) BitShares
1) DomainShares
2) LuckyShares
3) VoteShares
4) Keyhotee Video / Voice / Chat
5) APShares
6) ... other DACS proposed on this forum.....
7) Mobile Clients...

You gonna hire like 100 people for each project, paying 10k/month to every one of them?
Those numbers seem ridiculous to me...
Meet you on STEEM

Offline coyote47

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I agree with fuzznuts. I am one of those newcomers driving up the price of PTS by purchasing them on the exchange and I feel like you are rigging the game against me. Bytemaster you may feel that logically you have found a great way to fund your company but if the price of PTS tanks will you still be right?

We are trying to give you feedback on how current and future shareholders will perceive this move but it seems like you made up your mind prior to starting this thread. Up until now I have been getting everyone I know set up to mine/buy protoshares to support your cause. I did this based on your social contract and future DAC development plans. I would never have done this if the Invictus mission statement was to "Maximize Shareholder Value". We can already by stock in thousands of companies ruled by that mantra. You guys used to offer a different solution.

I understand that if the price rises this may be in the best interests of a current shareholders but this is just wishful thinking. You don't get to have you cake and eat it too. If you need more capital sell your shares.


Offline bytemaster


Seriously, where is marketing?  Why are you still the only one posting in this very important and frankly terrifying thread.

That's what I've been asking myself for weeks now

It is clear that this is very controversial.  Brian is getting up to speed and you will see results soon


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Offline fav

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Seriously, where is marketing?  Why are you still the only one posting in this very important and frankly terrifying thread.

That's what I've been asking myself for weeks now

Offline fuzzy


It doesn't matter what you want to do, it matters what you committed to.  Deliver on your promises then try to change the deal.   If every time you get a good idea you modify the arrangement NOBODY WILL TRUST THE ARRANGEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS CHANGING.  The whole advantage of crypto is it takes out the arbitrary

sheesh, you're a brilliant guy but it seems like you're just not getting this.



Once again lighthouse...SPOT on. 

« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:49:18 pm by fuznuts »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline fuzzy

What about giving PTS 1.0 holders more of  whatever comes next? Release PTS 2.0, but honor all PTS 1.0 holders in a way every PTS 1.0 holder thinks it would be fair. Those who invested early should get "more" than everybody else who got in late(r). The earlier you get in, the more you invest in an idea. That should be honored. Investing in Apple 1980 got you more than investing in 2010. Investing in PTS november 5th 2013 should give you more than investing in 01/2014 when everybody wants to because the word spread.

Only issue with that is that people like me invested early...but then bought through exchanges over time after the cost of mining went up.  Opening up that can of worms can upset a large number of people and make newcomers feel the game is fixed and out of their favor.  Those people will not want to invest and will likely be more than willing to spread that message.
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline Lighthouse

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I support  contests or giveaways as a means of bringing people in.  As long as we are giving away some of it, we should maximize the value to the PTS holders who are debased by it.

This is exactly your problem, the original deal was you were giving away ALL OF IT and competing to get some of your own on the free market.  Now you are proposing to renegotiate the deal so everyone coming in after you has to buy it from you. 

Your actions are an attempt to avoid botnets and cloud miners but the perception to the vast majority of users is that where they had opportunity before, now they don't.     "As long as we're giving some of it away" is the wrong approach, if you wanted to have that kind of control you shouldn't have tied your reputation to a social contract on a minable equity.  That opportunity has passed now.

The only way this will be pallatable is if you ALLOCATE a fixed % to go to inclusive initiatives as discussed previously, otherwise you've built a walled garden where investors you meet at vegas can play but not the little guy.   I appreciate anyone can pay, but not everyone can pay the way you're requiring with the new system.

Perhaps I am just too rational in how I view mining (as a miner).... I stopped mining and just purchased PTS and have long recommend others do the same.  I have since identified that mining does not result in decentralization (our primary goal) and have developed some proof-of-stake ideas that would make mining unnecessary for its original purpose (security). 

So now that we got 90% of the money supply back I want to maximize its value.

To claim that I am selling it (and keeping it as a profit) is to completely pervert the concept of investing.  Miners are selling it and keeping it as a profit, I am offering to spend 100% of funds received building and deploying DACs... how many PTS miners are willing to spend 100% of the profits they received re-investing in the ecosystem?   Most take their profits and buy new computers, tablets, and other toys for themselves.   

The elephant in the room here is that in the name of the 'little guy' who may mine perhaps 1% of future coins, the 'big miners' and "bot nets" will mine the other 99% for a profit and dump it.

So I think we can agree to ALLOCATE a fixed % to go to inclusive initiatives as that will satisfy the 1% of PTS that would go to the little guy.  That contests and promotional activities are a better use for that 1% and that PTS holders and miners will have gained more as a result of these proposals than if we changed nothing.

If the only place people can acquire PTS is to pay Bitcoins to your mining fund, which then gets them a split of the PTS created proportional to their contribution that is called a group auction and yes you are selling them.  You can dress it up like mining but don't kid yourself, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a fucking duck.   

You realists all have the same problem, you only care about reality when you make your judgements.   YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE FROM DAY ONE THEY CAN MINE IT WITH THEIR COMPUTERS.  Just because you were wrong about that, and it's not true doesn't make it OK for you to change the rules mid-stream and say "Oh well they would have only gotten one percent so we'll devote one percent and keep the other 99kPTS profit per week for things we think deserve funding.

The offer was "Mine with us!" and now it's "Pay us to mine for you!" which is VERY DIFFERENT because one is as a peer and the other is with you as master, suddenly recieving revenue that was not yours to claim.

It doesn't matter what you want to do, it matters what you committed to.  Deliver on your promises then try to change the deal.   If every time you get a good idea you modify the arrangement NOBODY WILL TRUST THE ARRANGEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS CHANGING.  The whole advantage of crypto is it takes out the arbitrary

sheesh, you're a brilliant guy but it seems like you're just not getting this.

Seriously, where is marketing?  Why are you still the only one posting in this very important and frankly terrifying thread.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:35:53 pm by Lighthouse »
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline Gekko

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What about giving PTS 1.0 holders more of  whatever comes next? Release PTS 2.0, but honor all PTS 1.0 holders in a way every PTS 1.0 holder thinks it would be fair. Those who invested early should get "more" than everybody else who got in late(r). The earlier you get in, the more you invest in an idea. That should be honored. Investing in Apple 1980 got you more than investing in 2010. Investing in PTS november 5th 2013 should give you more than investing in 01/2014 when everybody wants to because the word spread.

Offline phoenix

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Pts has helped in all of the viral growth.  It taught us a lot about pow and invictus did manage to raise some money via pts. 

If we sold our pts at these low prices to fund development we would end up owning nothing and burn our wad.   We would also crash the price.

We want to increase pts value to maximize the gains pts provides without crashing the price.  Reallocating waisted resources seemed to be the best way to accomplish both goals.

It is very sad that burning wealth is seen as beneficial because of class envy and a desire to prevent anyone but amazon, power companies, and botnet operators from gaining.   

The movement against centralized powers needs all of the funding it can get and our whole community is shooting itself in the foot by burning our capital in non productive activity. 

We would use the funds in a transparent manner.  Not to pad our personal bank accounts. 




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Why do I not hear about the leveraging of a resource invictus has literally infinite FREE supply of?  Founder ID's (or perhaps newly minted alternative ID's that carry with them a sense of prestige) for getting the talent you need? 

If I am a student or professional with great talent who is just starting out...it would be a smart play to increase the value of my future work if I have a provable and prestigious contact ID through Invictus that PROVES I was instrumental in their success.  We sometimes need to stop thinking about the "Money" and remember that the value of "money" is a simple psychological perception. 

I have spoken with others (who I trust) and they tell me it is not possible, even if the blockchain code is forked, but I want to float it to the community just in case they were incorrect.

The problem with this is that the founder IDs are all in the Keyhotee Genesis Block. After the Genesis Block is launched, there are no more founder IDs available
Protoshares: Pg5EhSZEXHFjdFUzpxJbm91UtA54iUuDvt
Bitmessage: BM-NBrGi2V3BZ8REnJM7FPxUjjkQp7V5D28

Offline bytemaster

I have talented developers ready to sign on and give us 80 hours per week... but they need basic living expenses ($3K per month or so) in addition to other motivating factors to leave jobs paying $75K to $150K per year complete with scholarships toward masters degrees.     A Keyhotee ID will not put food on the table.  With the funds received we could sell the PTS and pay for one developer.   

I looked into honoring Keyhotee IDs with shares and concluded that it would undermine the basic premise of Keyhotee IDs that they have no value except to be used by the user.  If I give them transferable or redeemable value then people will mine out bogus Keyhotee IDs making it hard for new users to mine their ID. 

Bottom line is that even the best talent must be compensated for the risks they take and as a holder of PTS I want as much talent behind it as possible.

Keep in mind, Keyhotee needs to fund its own development and Keyhotee IDs are not enough to do that. 
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.