A marketing idea? Whitepaper? Strategy? request? Either way I think its is gold.

[fav]

let's see some facts:

https://faucet.bitshares.org/refscoreboard

Referrers in total around 1500. in total. all our combined and track-able marketing/advertising efforts up to this point. Let's say 25% were real users. how many of those 25% stayed? let's assume 5% (probably a lot less)

Total users: ~20

No matter how great this product is, it won't grow without help. Apart from new active/inactive users, marketer will bring entrepreneurs and merchants with them. 

[bobmaloney]

2. We get called scammers and MLM'ers all the time now by some retarded bitcoiners.  Bitcoiners get called drug dealers by some retarded people all the time too. You can't base your life and your business on what dumb people call you.  We already get called names.  True with a 1 tier referral system we will get more of it.  From a multi-tier system we will get even more of it again.  We all had the intelligence and the integrity to repell accusations of being drug dealers because we were involved in crypto. Hopefully we have the intelligence and integrity to repell these accusations too.

This is borderline Straw Man.

If anyone here believes that the negative MLM perceptions will stop at bitcointalk - they have spent far too much time on discussion forums.

Negative attitudes and perceptions of MLM span our entire society and I would guess that this holds for the large majority of the population (especially the demographic that I would consider more likely to be early adopters of any crypto-related financial properties)

3. For those that have the Pavlovian response to MLM, I say get educated first.  A pyramid/ponzi has 2 defining characteristics.  1. There is no product and 2. It is impossible to earn more than your referrer.  We obviously have a great product, but thee is an easy way to put this fear to bed.  Simply have more non-income earning customers than income earning customers.  You achieve that by making the business opportunity less attractive. eg: Payout a smaller percentage of fees as rewards and/or increase the upgrade fee.  And by structuring the tiers so that the first tier gets a much higher percentage than the other tiers you easily guarantee that producers get paid the most and free loaders get paid the least.  ie: people can out earn their referer.

That Pavlovian response is usually quite logical.

I have listed to a couple people pitch their MLM wares, but I have simply had no want or need to belong to a product fiefdom.

Is that what we want with Bitshares? 

Because this MLM proposal is worrying me that we are laying the foundation for our potential endgame in a niche product closed ecosystem.

***I agree that you have a good point with (2.), but once Bitshares becomes MLM, when/where are you going to get the opportunity to explain that difference.

I know that I no longer give MLM pitchmen my attention and most people I know are the same.

How do we get around/over that wall once it is in place?

4. Now that you know what an MLM is and is not, know that some of the largest companies in the world are MLM and billions of dollars are generated from MLM each year. It is just a marketing structure. That is all. One that lends itself perfectly to blockchain technology I would think.

Does this impress anyone?
http://www.networkmarketingcentral.com/2013/02/19/top-50-mlm-companies-global-revenue/

We are expecting a world/cultural changing product and tool with Bitshares, this approach does not seem to align. I am trying, but I just can't imagine a scenario where the benefits outweigh the potential risks.

5. Because we need to have an upgrade fee to be an earner (point 1) we will never be a nice neat and clean referrel program like Paypal was. Even a single tier program will get called a scam.... a lot.

The big difference is that Paypal has laid the groundwork and precedent - We can more easily define Bitshares referral program as such and we can always refer back to it.

I think most would prefer to have more similarity with Paypal than Amway.

7. Quote from world famous marketer Jay Abraham.  "If your marketing doesn't make you uncomfortable you are doing it wrong"

"It is not necessary to do extraordinary things to get extraordinary results." - Warren Buffett

Maybe a PayPal-like simplicity will be the best approach?

[Globally Distributed]

One point to consider is that MLM also allows for single tier marketing and a % of transaction fees goes to the referrer.  Because transaction fees also produce a payout to the referrer, a bitshares marketer has incentive to attract all types of users, including merchants and consumers.  And because MLM is enabled, the salesperson is also incentivized to be a recruiter for other BTS salespeople.  With a dual MLM and Single Tier Referral Program based on transaction fees, we would attract an army of educators, recruiters and salespeople.  The $20 fee for becoming an MLMer (let's call them Blockchain Marketers) is an added bonus to the network, and the quality marketing for merchants and consumers happens more because of the added recruiting element of MLM.

The key is understanding that transaction fees can be the payout. It helps both the Single Tier and MLM (Blockchain Marketer) models.  And on top of that, it is very analogous to mining, although, immensely more useful.

[Ander]

by the way

best discussion in a while

Indeed, best discussion about how to murder Bitshares since that time when Bytemaster came up with a way to murder Bitshares using Vote, and then decided to issue 500M additional BTS to people who would dump them on the market in order to "save" it. 

[Shentist]

by the way

best discussion in a while

[davidpbrown]

..
1. A fee to upgrade to earner status is important because it stops people signing up under themselves and abusing the system.  It is a must.
..

How it is possible to abuse the system, if the rewards follow directly and only from the transaction fees of those you introduce, surely those signing up themselves would see no reward? If there were bonuses against numbers of accounts, obviously that would not work. All rewards should follow from the real value added.

[Shentist]

A round up of ideas so far.

1. A fee to upgrade to earner status is important because it stops people signing up under themselves and abusing the system.  It is a must.

i am thinking how long would i need to get 20 bitUSD back only with fees? i suspect ages and so i need to convince people to get the account "upgrated" to marketing accounts to get my money back. This would be the reason, why we would called scammers. Or do i miss some point of view?

i think we need something like this, because who the "fuck" will do the work? At the moment maybe 10 people and that's it. This will not lead to anything.

could we do it different? We are a blockchain our product is code, so could we set it up different then other MLMs?

- we are interested to get "active" users and not just zombies!

so lets say, you can "upgrade" your account to a marketing account for 20 bitUSD

- for upgrating you get 2 rights

1. you will get paid x bitUSD for every marketing account you aquired (we can discuss 1 Tier or multitier)
2. we will elect x(2-3) delegates who will pay the income to the affiliates for every active normal account for x (3) month

all "aquired" accounts will get paid the same amount. So the earned incomed will be pooled and shared to all marketers.
in the beginning the delegate payment is not much worth, but if the value increases the payments from the delegates will increase

with the proposed system from max i have the feeling people will forth anyone they meet into an upgrated account, so we need something to prevent this. Like a button on the wallet. "You are upgrating your wallet into a marketing wallet. This is not needed and is totally free to use"

[starspirit]

While I applaud the creativity and enthusiasm, I highly doubt the OP scheme will encourage real users to BitShares. It seems to me the only way somebody with an income earner status can earn enough fees for this to be worthwhile is by promoting the scheme to others who are willing to also pay the fee for the income earner status (and so on). Any discussion or use they have of the BitShares system beyond that is purely perfunctory. In fact, apart from recording the referral links, this scheme could exist entirely independent of the BitShares ecosystem. So there's nothing to stop anybody replicating this outside, but I don't believe BitShares should facilitate it. Marketing is not just a game of numbers- not all users are created equal.

I think its to be encouraged to look for novel ways of generating interest in BitShares. But if its truly of value to Bitshares, nobody should be forced to pay a fee to create and be recognised for this value. Referrers should get paid from revenue sources already within the system. And that may first require more innovation on the business model itself.

[Ben Mason]

A round up of ideas so far.

1. A fee to upgrade to earner status is important because it stops people signing up under themselves and abusing the system.  It is a must.

2. We get called scammers and MLM'ers all the time now by some retarded bitcoiners.  Bitcoiners get called drug dealers by some retarded people all the time too. You can't base your life and your business on what dumb people call you.  We already get called names.  True with a 1 tier referral system we will get more of it.  From a multi-tier system we will get even more of it again.  We all had the intelligence and the integrity to repell accusations of being drug dealers because we were involved in crypto. Hopefully we have the intelligence and integrity to repell these accusations too.

3. For those that have the Pavlovian response to MLM, I say get educated first.  A pyramid/ponzi has 2 defining characteristics.  1. There is no product and 2. It is impossible to earn more than your referrer.  We obviously have a great product, but thee is an easy way to put this fear to bed.  Simply have more non-income earning customers than income earning customers.  You achieve that by making the business opportunity less attractive. eg: Payout a smaller percentage of fees as rewards and/or increase the upgrade fee.  And by structuring the tiers so that the first tier gets a much higher percentage than the other tiers you easily guarantee that producers get paid the most and free loaders get paid the least.  ie: people can out earn their referer.

4. Now that you know what an MLM is and is not, know that some of the largest companies in the world are MLM and billions of dollars are generated from MLM each year. It is just a marketing structure. That is all. One that lends itself perfectly to blockchain technology I would think.

5. Because we need to have an upgrade fee to be an earner (point 1) we will never be a nice neat and clean referrel program like Paypal was. Even a single tier program will get called a scam.... a lot.

6. This is not an act of desperation in anyway.  One way or another bitshares will have a multi billion dollar market cap because the product is that good. It can change lives for better and by a lot.   The question is... What is the most effective way to get the word out.

7. Quote from world famous marketer Jay Abraham.  "If your marketing doesn't make you uncomfortable you are doing it wrong"

Bitmarket, i don't dispute any of what you are saying.  However, every now and then an idea crops up within the BitShares community that has the potential to fracture it, this is another of those ideas.  All the ideas had integrity.  We should wait to see what comes of the most recent efforts to build and network.  Perception is very important at this stage, more important than aggressive marketing.  The BitShares ecosystem is not the same as those other companies that have successfully deployed an MLM strategy.

[Shentist]

question should be

- do we need "professionels" to promote BTS or bitAssets, then MLM would be better

- do we just need " unprofessional" help we need just a referral programm!

what about we elect 1-2 delegates and they are "sworn" contributer to new accounts, who got created by referrals. we could agree that we pay out every week and will divide all got payments to all contributer in this week. It would be a start. At the moment all people are waiting for this "great" update of bytemaster about his referral idea. This was/is the reason why some people started to put referral links out. Now we need just a way to pay them back.

[bitmarket]

A round up of ideas so far.

1. A fee to upgrade to earner status is important because it stops people signing up under themselves and abusing the system.  It is a must.

2. We get called scammers and MLM'ers all the time now by some retarded bitcoiners.  Bitcoiners get called drug dealers by some retarded people all the time too. You can't base your life and your business on what dumb people call you.  We already get called names.  True with a 1 tier referral system we will get more of it.  From a multi-tier system we will get even more of it again.  We all had the intelligence and the integrity to repell accusations of being drug dealers because we were involved in crypto. Hopefully we have the intelligence and integrity to repell these accusations too.

3. For those that have the Pavlovian response to MLM, I say get educated first.  A pyramid/ponzi has 2 defining characteristics.  1. There is no product and 2. It is impossible to earn more than your referrer.  We obviously have a great product, but thee is an easy way to put this fear to bed.  Simply have more non-income earning customers than income earning customers.  You achieve that by making the business opportunity less attractive. eg: Payout a smaller percentage of fees as rewards and/or increase the upgrade fee.  And by structuring the tiers so that the first tier gets a much higher percentage than the other tiers you easily guarantee that producers get paid the most and free loaders get paid the least.  ie: people can out earn their referer.

4. Now that you know what an MLM is and is not, know that some of the largest companies in the world are MLM and billions of dollars are generated from MLM each year. It is just a marketing structure. That is all. One that lends itself perfectly to blockchain technology I would think.

5. Because we need to have an upgrade fee to be an earner (point 1) we will never be a nice neat and clean referrel program like Paypal was. Even a single tier program will get called a scam.... a lot.

6. This is not an act of desperation in anyway.  One way or another bitshares will have a multi billion dollar market cap because the product is that good. It can change lives for better and by a lot.   The question is... What is the most effective way to get the word out.

7. Quote from world famous marketer Jay Abraham.  "If your marketing doesn't make you uncomfortable you are doing it wrong"

[thisisausername]

Look do we believe in BitShares or not?  Do we have patience or not?  Please can we allow some organic growth to arrive from all the hard work that is going on.......

Indeed.  What we need is organic growth of actual users, trading bitassets on the decentralized exchange.
And not a pyramid scheme of MLM marketers trying to convince people to spend $20 to sign up, so that they can get a cut of it.


1 level referral plan sounds great to me, with no large signup fee, simply giving a referral bonus of some portion of fees generated (from actual trading use of bitshares!) by the referrer.  Go beyond that and we look like a bunch of people who are really desperate to make a buck off people in whatever way we can.

[Xeldal]

There are some benefits that come with the multi-tiered approach.  When my potential income is augmented by the production of those I introduce, there is a natural incentive for me to then support those that I introduce(that also elect to upgrade).

erm.. I wonder you are missing the obvious.. your potential income is augmented - by the rise in real value of BitShares.

Im talking about the difference between a single level affiliate program and a multi level affiliate program, they would each have their own effect on the price, they might have the same effect or no effect, IDK ....  not sure what your point is.     

[gamey]

Egad Brain!

Those are all good points, but the A-word and the P-word will be applied to us by the trolls no matter what we do now.

Let's not let them set the agenda. 

What words ?  removing Anonymity and Privacy?  Or using Affiliate and Pyramid?

[Ben Mason]

As long as we stay away from MLM "downlines" and just do one-off rewards, ref= links and qr codes, that should be sufficient.

I agree with this.  Referral systems and giving a reward for getting a referral (a percentage of fees of your referee, and maybe a bonus), is great.  We have all read the story of how Paypal went into massive growth with its referral program.

Making it multi-level and rewarding for referrals of your referrals screams 'scam' and 'stay away' to EVERYONE. 

Please do not all hastily rush to turn Bitshares into an MLM scheme, lose the following of most of our remaining die hards, and cause yet another 75% price drop.  Just because some initial posts on the forum go "yay, this is great!   Bitshares will go up and I will make money!".  We made this mistake already in november, and it lost us most of the support of the chinese community.

You really need to realize that if Bitshares goes MLM, there are going to be 1 million people screaming in every thread in bitcointalk that it is a scam, and every single person is going to see the MLM scheme, and pattern match it to other scams, and think "yep, Bitshares is now confirmed to be a scam".

In fact, I am surprised that NewMine and DecentralizedEconomics havent ALREADY made posts saying this, even though it is just people talking about it.


Please consider just doing a referral plan and rewarding people for referring their plans, and not going full pyramid scheme and turning Bitshares from a wonderful idea into the spawn of evil.

this 

Look do we believe in BitShares or not?  Do we have patience or not?  Please can we allow some organic growth to arrive from all the hard work that is going on.......

But the point is that "all the hard work that is going on" is being done by very few people, and they are not being adequately compensated. Yet those doing nothing, or only trading and trying to profit while others do the work, or even doing nothing but COMPLAINING - they all expect to reap the rewards of those actually working to create and grow the system.

Max's idea, all though it needs careful consideration and refining, will benefit all those who actually do the work of introducing and explaining BitShares to the public. It is not easy money or a rip off. And the expected benefits to those jumping on the opportunity, digging in, and doing the marketing will be like the expected benefits to any early investor in a startup.

Those doing all the hard work are not being adequately compensated.....yet.  I hope and believe they will be, as I believe anyone who has become a part of BitShares will be. The most valuable thing that BitShares has earned to date is trust.  Although the marketing plan is very clever and might even work, I just feel that in our rush towards the finish line, we should not put that trust at risk.