Power of the community: Price recovery action 1

[betax]

I believe this is rather sad.

1. We have many delegates that we don't have a clear idea of what are they doing.
2. We have many delegates that started something and currently not doing anything.
3. We have people that do much work and not get 100% (ie xeroc who helps everyone on the forum, no day off).
4. We have delegates that are getting paid by other means and do not need to be financed by the delegate model.

I like the concept mentioned of 100% contract duration. Ie not a lifetime delegate for a 1 month contribution.
If your contribution is not going to be open sourced (MIT) and you are starting a business, I don't understand why it should be financed by the delegate model.
It will be beneficial to know what each delegate is doing, track progress, and major shareholders (ie I3) will vote them out.

And finally mumbles are great BUT it will be fantastic to have a progress / direction sticky page, maybe outcome from the mumble chats, maybe before hand. I find it hard to have to listen to the mumble to get an idea of what is going on, I work during those hours so i cannot collaborate. I guess members who cannot speak English might find it impossible.

[btswildpig]

elmato   He is part of the Argentina-marketing.matt608 team. Another Marketing team.


Nope , elmato is the developer of a cellphone app version of wallet , who happens to be one of the people helping out the marketing in Argentina .

[btswildpig]

www.bts-hk (www.bts.hk) is built and funded by a college student since one year ago .

It pays hundreds of dollars every month in the last year for writers , to produce articles that is related to BitShares : Extensive Tutorials , News , promotion articles ....

I haven't seen one single member from this community who wasn't surprised by their effort and wished there was something similar in the western side .

Everything that's published on www.bts.hk will be published by btc38 exchange on their news page too .

Yep , I know the almighty Newmine may not understand why a website is that important . But I know for a fact that if this site is closed , many Chinese people including me will left BitShares for good .

Also FYI , www.bts-hk only got voted in after several months . So before you bragging theories about how two groups holding minebitshares back by anti POW sentiment , know the reality : The wallet is so buggy , voter with substantial amounts are not willing to open their wallet frequently .

It's sad that you can't read Chinese . In the Chinese side , people are talking about how the dev team has the single biggest voting power to get delegates in .

And the market responsible of the majority of the volume has only 4 full paid delegate  position now . Greedy for them .
I have the same reservation about the way of dilution to pay workers . But as long as this mechanism exist , I doubt anyone with their right mind couldn't see the importance of supporting these 4 full paid delegates .

Let me boil it down for you in case you're lack of information .
The contribution of these full paid delegates is the major reason why many people still has hope .
If any single one of them left the system , the sentiment alone could destroy the remaining confidence the market has .

In fact , if you want the price of BitShares drops further , all you have to do is to hack www.bts.hk and put "We decide to close this site" , then this news alone would be used by the dumpers and one day later you would be looking at 30-40% drop .

Their contributions are there , whether you like to award them with delegate pay or not  . I also know that they've been doing these contributions for a long time without delegate pay in the first place , and they'll keep doing that even without delegate pay . That being said , if you want to single them out as one of those people "sucking blood from the system",

Newmine , you would be out of your damn mind .

[Ander]

What this thread looks like to me::


Price goes down.  Community reaction:  "Aaaaaah, panic!  Change things randomly with no plan".


Market reaction:  "They look like they have no plan and no idea what they are doing.  Also things keep changing so I have no idea whats going to happen next.  I'll avoid this".
Therefore price goes down.    Community reaction:  "Aaaaaa, panic!  Change things yet again with no plan".


Etc.



Selling from paid delegates is at most a few percent of the sell pressure which is causing the price to drop.  And yet the response is that some people want to fire every single delegate, that is, just kill off every single project that anyone in the bitshares community is working on.  What do you expect would happen THEN, if you killed off all the promising projects?  How will anything then come out in the future and help the price?


Its a great idea to evaluate delegates and see if they are still working on something valuable, and remove delegates that are not.  That's necessary!      But its silly to suggest that every single paid delegate in existence right now is worthless. 

I would love to see some other people run through every delegate and give opinions on their worthiness.  Maybe there are some that should be voted out.  This is a process that should always be taking place!
But throwing out everything isnt going to do anything positive at this point.



Main reasons for the price decline imo:
1) PTS/etc vesting shares dilution.  This is a MUCH bigger dilution than the paid delegates.  Its a way bigger factor.  Also, its not supporting projects to further the development of Bitshares.  It was merely a bonehead move where Bytemaster proclaimed: "I will murder BTSX, my own creation, using Vote, muahahahah!  Unless we decide to issue 500M more shares instead".  And then we issued 500M shares.

2) Chinese whales and others being pissed off about the dilution, because they wanted a deflationary coin, and thus selling.  Eliminating paid delegates doesnt change this, because the merger shares were the worst of it.

3) General crypto bear market continued.  This wouldve dragged us down some anyway, but without the above issues we would probably have maintained ground in terms of number of satoshi per BTS, and we wouldnt be bitching, we would just be waiting for the whole sector to turn around.


I don't think there is any easy solution to the price decline problem other than:

A) Wait and save some money/BTC/altcoins until BTS gets super cheap, and then the few remaining believers buy out all the bears for cheap.  Once all the shares are into strong hands the downtrend stops.
and
B) Execute well on all Bitshares projects, such as getting out a stable client, improving trading interface, getting moonstone wallet, etc.  (As opposed to us being promised "1.0 by Christmas!  Fiat gateways!  Marketing!" and then fail on every promise).

[testz]

@NewMine: I understand that it's not so interesting for you to look closely to every delegate, but please fix in your records:

valzav.payroll.testz   not sure what he does since PTS is gone bye bye. ??

to:
valzav.payroll.testz   Core Dev actively working, also paid by I3 in large sums of BTS.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12625

[fuzzy]

In addition to the *manual* vote out mechanism, why not introduce an *automatic* expiration period to each 100% delegates?

Like a company offering contract (with a duration) to each employee, I don't see why we cannot introduce a similar contract period to each 100% delegate.  After the contract, if the 100% delegate is under-performed, he/she will be simply downgraded to low-pay delegate. Near the end of each contract period, shareholders can decide whether the 100% delegate deserves a contract extension or not. This should be more effective than *manual* vote out. Different 100% delegate can have different contract period depend on their task nature.

Well, just my little suggestion.

I like the idea. 

[ffwong]

In addition to the *manual* vote out mechanism, why not introduce an *automatic* expiration period to each 100% delegates?

Like a company offering contract (with a duration) to each employee, I don't see why we cannot introduce a similar contract period to each 100% delegate.  After the contract, if the 100% delegate is under-performed, he/she will be simply downgraded to low-pay delegate. Near the end of each contract period, shareholders can decide whether the 100% delegate deserves a contract extension or not. This should be more effective than *manual* vote out. Different 100% delegate can have different contract period depend on their task nature.

Well, just my little suggestion.

[NewMine]

Thank you Newmine for speaking-up on this topic. We should seriously as a community look at his list and pick out a couple each week to focus our efforts on evaluating and removing if necessary. At the same time we should be actively discussing who we should be voting to get in.  It is telling that something like this https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=14887.0 run by a guy who has a proven track record cannot get voted in within a reasonable time frame and yet we likely have a few freeloaders who enjoy the lack of outspokenness about their efforts, results and transparency.

There have been three exposed 100% delegate frauds so far. 2 from Yunbi and 1 from blackwavelabs. It would seem that the Eastern side of the world has the most voting power as they easily voted them in and out. Unfortunately the voting power is controlled by two groups, the Dev group and the Chinese group, and if you are not "in" with either of them, you're out of the loop, groups and system as minebitshares appears to be. Perhaps the anti POW sentiment held by those groups is what's holing him down.
Although, if minebitshares is profiting from mining fees in any way I would be against them having a 100% delegate. Maybe a 10% or less would be okay for his funneling of people to the sites.

The scarcity of reddit (and hackernews) forum comments  these days is quite noticable. Nul- street would have been on top of that in the past.

We've had some success of getting to r/bitcoin and HN in the past and it had zero effect on adoption or price.

Our marketing efforts are simply ineffective and we have no word of mouth effect. Public only listens to people they trust and admire and from the bitcoiner's point of view we're no different from a random alter-coin pushers and there's no incentive to get interested and research Bitshares.

Let's face it: we have a terrible distribution. The whole currency/company has been sold to a bunch of random nobodies like you and me with no reputation and no friends in the industry. Makes me appreciate the genius of Bitcoin's production model: if you wanted to get involved, it's future distribution was more or less a blank slate. With Bitshares anyone serious who wants to get involved will be disproportionately enriching a bunch of unknowns who own it.

What is needed are thought leaders and VCs with their contacts, reputation and clout. People who will integrate BitUSD into their verticals. People who will talk about Bitshares on conferences and in the media. People who can make things happen.

But VCs don't buy shares at market price. In fact it would be simply impossible to buy a substantial position from the market. VCs need to be offered something extra to get involved.

What Bitshares needs to survive and thrive is another funding round. It needs to be negotiated in secret and sadly, it has to screw over the existing shareholders (in the short run).

You're probably right about the funding round except that if the existing shareholders are screwed over, that would be the end of everything as the project would get forked or die. The only way to survive a funding is to give someone the keys to AK's BTS windfall that is slowly vesting. The 28 million shares or whatever is still vesting would be a nice incentive for someone in the class of an Overstock or NewEgg or bigger company to incorporate bitUSD payments into their online services.

[fuzzy]

Thank you Newmine for speaking-up on this topic. We should seriously as a community look at his list and pick out a couple each week to focus our efforts on evaluating and removing if necessary. At the same time we should be actively discussing who we should be voting to get in.  It is telling that something like this https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=14887.0 run by a guy who has a proven track record cannot get voted in within a reasonable time frame and yet we likely have a few freeloaders who enjoy the lack of outspokenness about their efforts, results and transparency.

Wow...looks like I missed one for hangouts.  Or rather I was too late.  I reached out to him just this week :/

And for the record I have nothing against Newmine bringing things up, it is the way he brings it up. 

@Newmine: it is not just the server bro.  It is doing it every week.  Week in and week out, lining people up, organizing them behind the scenes, having a social media presence and trying to connect the bitshares community with new actors who want to bring value so they can more accurately assess if the services will accept bitAssets.
It is also about hiring someone from the community who does server upkeep and helps with new initiatives we are trying out.  And the people who edit the content.  This takes time. 

[mint chocolate chip]

Thank you Newmine for speaking-up on this topic. We should seriously as a community look at his list and pick out a couple each week to focus our efforts on evaluating and removing if necessary. At the same time we should be actively discussing who we should be voting to get in.  It is telling that something like this https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=14887.0 run by a guy who has a proven track record cannot get voted in within a reasonable time frame and yet we likely have a few freeloaders who enjoy the lack of outspokenness about their efforts, results and transparency.

[fuzzy]

Epic.

[Tuck Fheman]

[Stan]

What we need is more good advisors whispering edifying thoughts in our ears.

Little is known of Gríma Wormtongue before he became counselor of Théoden in Edoras. His childhood is a mystery. What is known is that Gríma, son of Gálmód, and a native of Rohan, joined the service of Saruman in secret and worked as a spy to weaken Théoden and his kingdom, using his voice to keep the spell intact while Saruman is inside the King.

Gríma, called (the) Wormtongue, is a fictional character in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. He appears in the second and third volumes of the work, The Two Towers and The Return of the King, and his role is expanded upon in Unfinished Tales. He is introduced in The Two Towers as the chief advisor to King Théoden of Rohan and henchman of Saruman. Gríma serves as an archetypal sycophant, flatterer, liar, and manipulator.

[bytemaster]

Right now Fuzzy is bringing people together, organizing weekly mumbles, and helping spread information to our community.   I highly value his contributions because his mumble sessions are how many people meet up. 

I think all of this focus on the "price" is a sign that people have lost their way, the price will not start growing until we stop watching it.   Who wants to buy into a community that is in panic about the price when we are all here to do so much more.   

It is about our mission and common interests.   Is there anything else out there that can compete with DPOS and BitAssets?

Assume BTS was worth nothing, this community is still very valuable.

[NewMine]

A lot of these delegates have collected upwards of half a million BTS to this point. Is that enough for what they have done? A lot have had other forms of payment for their contributions whether it was from I3 themselves or are now able to make side profits off the projects the were working on.


Here are the 100's and what it seems they are doing or have done:


market.cn.group101   Chinese marketing group. What effect have they had?

www.bts-hk   Another Chinese marketing team?

dev0.nikolai   As far as I can tell, he no longer is a Dev with BTS but with PLAY/NOTE

dev.bitsharesblocks   Created BitsharesBlocks.com Does this warrant a delegate pay forever? Half a million BTS fair enough for that contribution?

bm.payroll.riverhead Lead core Dev. Paid large sums of BTS by I3's AGS funds.

tradebts.gulu    Earns money through exchange fees.

marketing.methodx   Marketing group. MethodX gave up the reigns to others and they are putting out a newsletter.

elmato   He is part of the Argentina-marketing.matt608 team. Another Marketing team.

del0.cass   he made the logo and other graphics stuff. Again, is half a million enough pay for that contribution?

argentina-marketing.matt608    Marketing delegate who has left and supposedly handed the reigns over to a different group that include elmato, another 100% delegate.

jcalfee1-developer-team.helper.liondani   developer of online wallet paid by I3. No longer full-time Dev.?

developer.vikram   Core Dev actively working, also paid by I3 in large sums of BTS.

delegate-dev1.btsnow       A Dev group paid by I3 who also is making money off exchange fees from blocktrade.us

delegate-dev2.btsnow           Redundant delegate

media.bitscape   Earning money from Cryptofresh store. They also have another delegate. Really?

dev-metaexchange.monsterer   Earning money from exchange fees.......

delegate.rgcrypto   Another marketing delegate. Seems to be a lot of talk and no results. Although not as much since his weekly updates ceased and his referrals dried up after the initial delegate push.

valzav.payroll.testz   not sure what he does since PTS is gone bye bye. ??

stan.delegate.xeldal   Stan is a mouthpiece who already has a retirement income and a huge stash of BTS from AGS paid by I3.

delegate-dev4.btsnow        Redundant delegate

delegate-dev3.btsnow           Wow, another redundant delegate.

fuzzy.beyondbitcoin   Mumble chats moderator. Is it worth a 100% delegate, as much pay as a Dev?

dev-trial.misc.nikolai   This one is funny and I think is an inside joke with Toast. The guy this was intended for is gone, the fees paid off and was supposed be taken offline. But here it is still there banking money.

dev.nathanhourt.com    Lightweight Dev paid by I3

dev0.theoretical   Another Dev paid by I3 but with a sad story of being duped into going "all in".

dev.sidhujag   Another Dev paid by I3 for shopping cart plugin support

dacx.baozou   Crowd funded and VC funded, why do they need a delegate. (One of the elusive Chinese whales perhaps?)

dev-pc.bitcube         Puts in a few hours per month on bugs

provisional.bitscape   Redundant delegate

Lol...newmine. you spend so little time behind the scenes. You think content just comes to us begging to connect with the community? Do you think the mumble server is free? Do you know of a free alternative that provides encrypted comms, a press pass and recording equipment for all and doesn't rely on a third party and thus the jurisdiction out of which that third party operates?  Do you know how hard and time consuming is to edit material?  Do you know how hard it is to monetize our content since we are almost exclusively forced to focus on bitshares?
Do you think another ecosystem wouldn't pay us handsomely to leave bitshares and do what we do for them instead?  Do you think I haven't been approached and asked as much by people representing parties that would like to steal value from bitshares?

Oh and for the record, if people want me to stop doing this it would be the EASY path for me (though I would hate to hurt those who work for us at already low pay compared to what thy get for their skills on the open market..

But then again I'm certain the entire team would be far wealthier in terms of $s if we didn't provide this service and instead worked extra jobs in the corrupt fiat world and relegated the rest of our time to come on here and constantly complain.

Of course I'm not the only delegate on this list so please feel free to speak up if you have been called out by the all knowing newmine.

You speak and show how little you know of what is really going on behind the scenes. You think that what is in the surface is all there is.  You are so wrong.

Oh, spare me the self congratulatory, altruistic bull shit Fuzzy. I can  only imagine the number of opportunities raining down upon you in the wake of your under demanded, over valued circle jerk of all the like minded ostriches on the forum. If you have a better gig, take it. Money talks as clearly defined by your defensive response of your necessary 100% pay delegate.

Yes I know you pay for a server.  I am simply asking if your server and time is worth what others are receiving for their contributions?