Author Topic: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0  (Read 1857 times)

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Offline fav

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Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« on: July 08, 2015, 09:22:20 am »
Bitcoin under attack with a growing 50k 60k open Transactions in the mempool (https://tradeblock.com/blockchain)



how does BitShares prevent an attack like this?

* BitShares 2.0 will be able to handle at least 1k TPS at the beginning (according to cryptonomex' last statement)
* BitShares have minimum TX fees



Now the real question regarding smartcoins

how do we prevent this for say BitUSD - where the delegates/pool pay tx fees, IIRC?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:34:08 am by fav »
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Offline testz

Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2015, 09:25:43 am »
Bitcoin under attack with a growing 50k open Transactions in the mempool

Real time monitor: https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

Offline fav

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2015, 09:27:57 am »
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2015, 09:40:56 am »
Now the real question regarding smartcoins

how do we prevent this for say BitUSD - where the delegates/pool pay tx fees, IIRC?
This is a good questions and I am still waiting for a public documentation about "How fees for bitassets are payed".

Can you point me to a mumble recording in which BM addressed that?
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Offline fav

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2015, 09:43:45 am »
Now the real question regarding smartcoins

how do we prevent this for say BitUSD - where the delegates/pool pay tx fees, IIRC?
This is a good questions and I am still waiting for a public documentation about "How fees for bitassets are payed".

Can you point me to a mumble recording in which BM addressed that?

sorry, don't remember exactly. let's wait for BM :)

maybe something like

BitUSD TX
BTS Fees > pool/delegates < BitUSD fees < sender
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Offline monsterer

Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 09:44:52 am »
Right now, it's possible to DDOS the network in exactly the same way as bitcoin is suffering.

All you need do is create an MPA with very low value, get it voted in (admittedly, the hard part), then create millions of transactions for it - the fee is paid only in MPA units, so it will be a very low cost attack.
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Offline Erlich Bachman

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 09:59:22 am »
Right now, it's possible to DDOS the network in exactly the same way as bitcoin is suffering.

All you need do is create an MPA with very low value, get it voted in (admittedly, the hard part), then create millions of transactions for it - the fee is paid only in MPA units, so it will be a very low cost attack.

all transactions need to have a minimum significant value otherwise we are spam toast.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 12:00:15 pm by Erlich Bachman »
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Offline arhag

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 10:41:25 am »
Right now, it's possible to DDOS the network in exactly the same way as bitcoin is suffering.

All you need do is create an MPA with very low value, get it voted in (admittedly, the hard part), then create millions of transactions for it - the fee is paid only in MPA units, so it will be a very low cost attack.

Umm, I don't think so. In 0.x I believe you need to pay 2 times the BTS fee converted into the MPA units using the median price feed (although this MPA fee goes into the yield pool rather than to the delegates). In 2.0 the solution is more elegant. The minimum fee paid needs to be whatever the required network BTS fee is for the transaction and it goes into the reserve pool, but you can pay the fee using the MPA by using the MPA's fee pool. The issuer maintains a fee pool filled with BTS and publishes the core_exchange_rate (the price at which they are willing to exchange the MPA for the BTS in the fee pool for the purpose of paying transaction fees) and the blockchain takes care of conversion and fee payment automatically.

Offline monsterer

Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 10:48:14 am »
Right now, it's possible to DDOS the network in exactly the same way as bitcoin is suffering.

All you need do is create an MPA with very low value, get it voted in (admittedly, the hard part), then create millions of transactions for it - the fee is paid only in MPA units, so it will be a very low cost attack.

Umm, I don't think so. In 0.x I believe you need to pay 2 times the BTS fee converted into the MPA units using the median price feed (although this MPA fee goes into the yield pool rather than to the delegates).

I stand corrected! Presumably there is some logic to protect against a price feed of 0?
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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 10:53:00 am »
Presumably there is some logic to protect against a price feed of 0?
At least my feed script does not publish a price of "0" ..
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Offline arhag

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 10:53:40 am »
Right now, it's possible to DDOS the network in exactly the same way as bitcoin is suffering.

All you need do is create an MPA with very low value, get it voted in (admittedly, the hard part), then create millions of transactions for it - the fee is paid only in MPA units, so it will be a very low cost attack.

Umm, I don't think so. In 0.x I believe you need to pay 2 times the BTS fee converted into the MPA units using the median price feed (although this MPA fee goes into the yield pool rather than to the delegates).

I stand corrected! Presumably there is some logic to protect against a price feed of 0?

Hmm, don't know. But even if so I doubt there would be any logic against a really small number close to zero. The risk of that should be low because that would require the majority of the delegates to want to intentionally spam the network (and we've got bigger problems if they want to do that). Besides you can just vote them out if they do such a foolish thing.

Anyway, it doesn't matter with 2.0 because the fee pool method is superior. An issuer would be crazy to set a core_exchange_rate well below market rate because they would then essentially be throwing their money away and eventually run out.

Offline monsterer

Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 11:02:43 am »
Anyway, it doesn't matter with 2.0 because the fee pool method is superior. An issuer would be crazy to set a core_exchange_rate well below market rate because they would then essentially be throwing their money away and eventually run out.

The design specifics of privatised bitassets in 2.0 elude me.

I'm presuming you're saying that because 2.0 requires an issuer to back his MPA with some kind of collateral, or other insurance? ...Because if there is no cost to issuing an MPA, what's to stop an attacker just creating a bunch of them with the transaction fee set to some insignificant value, and just DDOS the network?
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Offline arhag

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Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 11:14:41 am »
I'm presuming you're saying that because 2.0 requires an issuer to back his MPA with some kind of collateral, or other insurance? ...Because if there is no cost to issuing an MPA, what's to stop an attacker just creating a bunch of them with the transaction fee set to some insignificant value, and just DDOS the network?

Let's say you want to submit a transaction that needs to pay a transaction fee of 30 BTS (according to the current fee schedule). This might be a transaction that transfers a UIA from your account to another account. Also, pretend your account does not have any BTS at all. If the UIA issuer has some BTS in the fee pool (at least 30 BTS necessary in this case), then it is possible for you to submit this transaction even without any BTS to pay the fee if you are willing to accept the issuer's exchange rate.

Let's pretend the market price of the UIA is 15 BTS/UIA. The issuer may have set a core_exchange_rate of 10 BTS/UIA instead to play it safe (account for market liquidity, volatility, management expenses, profit, etc.). So you need to pay a fee of at least 3 UIA for that transaction otherwise you will not be able to get enough BTS (specifically 30 BTS) from the UIA's fee pool to pay the transaction fee. So let's say you submit the transaction that withdraws 103 UIA, sends 100 UIA to the recipient, and pays 3 UIA as a fee which is converted via the fee pool into 30 BTS (20% of which goes to the reserve pool and the remaining 80% goes to your registrar/referrer). What happens with the conversion is that the 3 UIA is deposited into the issuer's account and 30 BTS is withdrawn from the fee pool.

Now the issuer can go into the market and exchange the 3 UIA for BTS. The market price is 15 BTS/UIA, but because of liquidity let's pretend the issuer only gets 36 BTS. The issuer can then put 30 BTS back into the fee pool to top it off and take the remaining 6 BTS as profit.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:23:22 am by arhag »

Offline monsterer

Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2015, 12:27:36 pm »
I appreciate the reply arhag, but I have to say I'm having trouble extracting the point you are trying to make from it. It sounds like you are describing normal business operations of a UIA. I was asking about network attack by issuing an MIA...?
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Offline svk

Re: Bitcoin under attack meanwhile at BitShares 2.0
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 04:39:51 pm »
I appreciate the reply arhag, but I have to say I'm having trouble extracting the point you are trying to make from it. It sounds like you are describing normal business operations of a UIA. I was asking about network attack by issuing an MIA...?
Issuing of assets only applies to user issued assets though, MIAs are brought into existance through shorting (or borrowing rather in 2.0)
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