Author Topic: Will bitassets in 2.0 Still Earn Interest?  (Read 12668 times)

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Offline cylonmaker2053

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Don't give up on yield. I believe its possible in 2.0 (with some adjustment) to have at-call interest bearing deposits, that you can draw on at any time - it just requires to operate a different way to 1.0. Having said that, with external USD interest rates so low, there would be little scope for interest on bitUSD right at this point in the cycle.

at-call and short maturity interest bearing instruments should be absolutely possible in 2.0, just a matter of drumming up the demand for both sides of the trade. interest rates may be low in the non-crypto economy, but i imagine our assets will require a hefty risk premium to justify holding them over traditional assets. if i had to make a guess, it'd be that the real rate (net of cost of buying bitUSD) will be somewhere around the current yield on bitUSD.

Offline starspirit

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Don't give up on yield. I believe its possible in 2.0 (with some adjustment) to have at-call interest bearing deposits, that you can draw on at any time - it just requires to operate a different way to 1.0. Having said that, with external USD interest rates so low, there would be little scope for interest on bitUSD right at this point in the cycle.

Offline devlux

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I thought the privatized bitassets market would leave it to the market to determine if there would be a yield or not? Perhaps I got something mixed up while the whole conversation was going on.

Terminology problem on my end.  User Issued Asset vs Market Pegged Asset.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

I thought the privatized bitassets market would leave it to the market to determine if there would be a yield or not? Perhaps I got something mixed up while the whole conversation was going on.
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Offline devlux

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-snip-

You are certainly right about "change scares people" and also the reduced incentive to accept and hold bitAssets. But I think we are still early enough in the process to change some mechanics and get things right. I rather have some changes now than later; or even worse a competing chain with a superior system.

Now I'm not generally opposed to the yield system, but I don't get what you are trying to say with the whole supply and demand thing. Yes, there is a higher incentive to short bitUSD but ONLY above the feed as you can get forced to settle at the price feed. So there will probably be a short wall just above the feed but if there isn't enough demand the shorts don't get filled and no bitUSD are created.

Or did I completely misunderstand that and your concerns are regarding BTS and not bitAsset supply/demand?

No sounds like I misunderstood the mechanism.

Quote
...if there isn't enough demand the shorts don't get filled and no bitUSD are created.
Sounds like a strong counterpoint.  I'll rethink my base assumptions and comeback to piss and moan about something else later.
BTS flooding the market at the current rates of production still seems like a major problem to me though.

Offline Frodo

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-snip-

You are certainly right about "change scares people" and also the reduced incentive to accept and hold bitAssets. But I think we are still early enough in the process to change some mechanics and get things right. I rather have some changes now than later; or even worse a competing chain with a superior system.

Now I'm not generally opposed to the yield system, but I don't get what you are trying to say with the whole supply and demand thing. Yes, there is a higher incentive to short bitUSD but ONLY above the feed as you can get forced to settle at the price feed. So there will probably be a short wall just above the feed but if there isn't enough demand the shorts don't get filled and no bitUSD are created.

Or did I completely misunderstand that and your concerns are regarding BTS and not bitAsset supply/demand?

Offline devlux

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You see this is something that bothers me.

Sure if you want to separate out the yield from the instrument fine it's your prerogative.  I don't get a say here, but I'm going to say my peace on the matter.

Simply put this is NOT how it was done before and it's going to kill the market at a fundamental level.

Any new campfire will take some time to smolder, then kindle before fully igniting.
bitUSD was smoldering a long time, there were real technical problems with the built in exchange mechanism that were preventing it from kindling properly. But now it's kindled, we're suddenly talking about pissing on the fire so we can put it out and move camp.

I think that the campfire should be the goal here, not the campsite.  If we extinguish what is there now, we will not be able to restart it.  Put another way.  If we piss on the fire we do have, the wood will be wet and much harder to start burning again.

I'm in a position where I've spent months building a business around the entire bitUSD model.  Now that model changes.  I'm not happy about it and I don't see an upside for anyone here.  I can't bolt and even if I could, the market pegging mechanism used here is fundamentally more important than the yield. 

I've done the math, it's very hard for bitUSD to fail as long as people continue using it. 
BTS has issues because they're printing WAY too much of it, but bitUSD is what I'm building my business around.

If they are going to do something to change the economy, adding a way to shrink the currency supply of BTS might be the best thing.  Instead it looks like they're coming at the problem sideways by deconstructing the thing that drives adoption (market pegged assets), and killing off the incentive hold them.  The incentive now slips to the supply side while killing the demand side.

Let's put fires and everything else aside for a minute and look at this from an economics 101 perspective.

An economy is nothing more than a system of value transfers.  In the real world US Dollars are brought into and out of circulation by the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury dept who's job is to prevent deflation while keeping inflation in check and yet still leaving the economy enough breathing room that the USA is currently the worlds most powerful economic engine.

Every decision that these 2 entities make have repercussions that filter out globally because the US Dollar is the worlds choice for both value transfer and wealth storage.  The climb of the dollar against other currencies makes products Made in America more expensive in other countries, which causes a trade deficit.  It also makes foreign made products cheaper. 

US Dollars flow out of the economy and only return when the countries who are trying to keep their currency low (in order to support their export driven economy), give those dollars back to the US by purchasing T-Bills.  This is why China is the biggest holder of US "Debt".  But the interest on that debt doesn't match real inflation. 
It is effectively the same thing as negative interest rates.
The Chinese government is paying for part of your Chinese made products.

The US Dollar does not have a built in yield mechanism.  No currency does.  Yet it does have a shrinking mechanism.
The yield on TBills are tied to decision based on fundamental market forces and this yield is a money sink that sucks the US Dollar out of international circulation and filters it back into the economy via government run projects and services.

This means that the only thing the dollar really has going for it, is that it is a currency that everyone accepts in exchange for goods and services.  There is an effective yield, because the dollar generally rises against other currencies as long as the US economy is the major economic engine of the world. (Also a negative effective yield when their economy takes a dump)

bitUSD is a derivative.  It is a derivative of BTS that pegs a certain number of BTS against the US Dollar.  If BTS rises or falls against the US Dollar then the quantity of BTS that a single bitUSD represents also rises or falls.

This is genius.  Except it misses something.  BTS and bitUSD are effectively illiquid.  I cannot get into and out of bitUSD without paying some kind of fee.  That fee can range from as low a 1% to as high as 10%.  But when I want to buy bitUSD or spend bitUSD then there are fees that must be paid.  This is a complete disincentive to, acquisition, holding and of course acceptance.

The act of creating bitUSD has previously required a yield.  Why?  Because bitUSD is effectively illiquid or at least semi-illiquid.

Paying a interest was a disincentive to creating the derivative. 
It kept the supply low while demand was relatively fixed. 
This means bitUSD is an effective mop for excess BTS liquidity.

Now there is no more disincentive to creation.  In fact, quite the opposite there is now an incentive to creation. 
If there is no interest paid, why not just convert every BTS in circulation directly to bitUSD and derive all assets from that?

The reason is that it would kill demand.  Yet this is what will happen.  If people no longer have to pay interest to create it they will create more.  If they have an incentive to create it (by getting paid interest), they will make as much as they possibly can.  This will push supplies skyward faster than demand could reasonably be expected to increase.

Furthermore if there is no interest paid to holders, they have a disincentive to accept bitUSD.

You guys are counting on people deciding to park their funds in a bond market in leui of receiving a yield payment. 
That won't work.  People aren't savvy enough to even understand what that means.  What they will do is see that they can acquire 1 bitUSD for 1.10 USD and say to themselves, "Time to break out the Visa Card" when it comes down to figuring out how to pay for their purchases.

If you guys had done this from the beginning it wouldn't be so bad. 

But it wasn't done that way, and now there are plans to make a fundamental change to the social contract. 
Change is scary, even if it's as you believe "for the better good", it's going to scare the hell out of people and they will avoid getting into an uncertain position.  This will further reduce demand.

It might not kill it, but it's going to cripple it.

Please for the love of God.  Turn off the BTS spigot or at least turn it way, way down. 

What is killing the BTS currency is supply and demand.  There is almost no demand as it is, the fundamental demand drivers that do exist are getting changed and demand will suffer if for no other reason than "change is scary". 

Yet supplies continue to increase.

Go buy an economics 101 textbook, open the page to supply and demand fundamentals and look at what happens when this occurs. Then decide if you really want to kill demand while continuing to increase supply.

Or someone please feel free to tear this posting apart and show me every place I'm wrong.  This is not meant to start a flamewar or be a troll.  You look at my posting history, I am doing what I can to increase bitUSD utility and acceptance, but it's a hard as hell sell already.  Make my job easier, prove me wrong, please.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 07:05:07 pm by devlux »

Offline cylonmaker2053

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Kills off half the value proposition for me. 
The yield is the thing guys.  I want my money to grow, not sit there depreciating or barely treading water.

I shouldn't have to babysit a bond market and hit sell if the borrower defaults or whatever and hope I caught it in enough time to extract my value back.

My god someone has to create it and as far as I knew the yield thing was the reason we allowed them to.  How does the coming change fix any of the problems?  I'm sorry maybe I'm stupid, but I really just don't get it.

If I want a random dollar pegged crypto I can get tetherUSD or one of the other feed coins.

The dollar peg is nice don't get me wrong, but until bitUSD acceptance is ubiquitous I'll need a reason to hold it and a superior interest rate IS that reason.  Or at least it WAS the reason.

I'm doing what I can to increase acceptance, by integrating it into the new ATMs.  But that will take time to grow.  Also there are fees for changing into and out of fiat, without a yield it makes almost no sense to even acquire it since the yield is the thing people use to offset the cost of acquisition and also the reason for mopping up the liquidity by holding.

Can someone tell me where I'm wrong here?  Alternatively is there a crypto that functions like bitUSD used to?  I have some cash I'd like to just park and watch grow again.

Thanks!

hey @devlux, i was going through the same pained thought process this past week, which is why i posted the thread for clarification. i was putting together plans for a USD<-->bitUSD local gateway business with the basic value proposition offered to bitUSD buyers being the way above market interest yield simply by holding the asset. learning that in 2.0 bitUSD wouldn't earn an organic yield freaked me out and almost made me scrap the plan, which i was prepping to take to a legal group to make sure there weren't any issues prior to capitalizing it.

anyway, after this back and forth in the forum i realized my panic was for naught and i'm still a big fan of bitUSD. all 2.0 is doing is segmenting the currency market from the yield market, so there's the additional step of buying bitUSD and then parking the funds in the bond market. what i think people like us who are planning businesses around the asset need to do is make sure we're focusing all our efforts on creating a viable bond market! my plan is to support 30-day, 90-day, and 1-year bond offerings, likely in that order.

there are no guarantees that 2.0 will successfully pull this off; in fact, i think there's a lot of risk and we're almost starting from scratch with its launch. all of the prior market dynamics that build around bitUSD and bitCNY will be moot with the new markets...kind of disappointing to some extent, but also exciting in another bc i think this new implementation will be a cleaner experience. we'll see!

the economics of 2.0 will be much different IMO. short sellers will now be paid a premium instead of bitUSD buyers bc they will be selling the shorted instruments above par and can always redeem them at par (sell high, buy low). bitUSD buyers are paying the upfront premium to get the crypto assets and then they can roll them into a bond with their desired duration. who knows what the actual market rates will be, but right now we're seeing about 5.5% yield on bitUSD, so if there's a 3% premium to buying bitUSD to begin with, then the adjusted bond market yields should accommodate by moving slightly upward from where they are now, ceteris parabis. we'll see.

there's still hope for our business models, just an new layer of risk we'll have to wait out before reacting appropriately on our ends. another thing that concerns me is the migration to 2.0 and how the devs will roll over open positions. what will happen to people who hold bitUSD right now that pay a yield? will that position just roll over into an equiv bond market position? and what is equivalent? an infinite horizon bond would match maturity, or will the devs change the contract terms and roll it into a fixed duration bond, say a 30-day instrument? again, we'll see...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 05:08:27 pm by cylonmaker2053 »

Offline Pheonike


The swap could be the default for any account holding BitUSD. The daily interest rate paid could be a fraction of the 30-day average of the traders actively participating in the swap market.

Offline topcandle


Could set up a swap market like bitfinex that loans to traders and and settles interest payments daily.

I like this idea.  What do we need to make it happen?

Yeah I said bond market because that is what we have been using.  It's actually a swap market rather than a bond market you are thinking of.  It should function like bitfinex, but bytemaster hasn't made this evidently clear.  Unless someone else could confiem
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Offline devlux

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Could set up a swap market like bitfinex that loans to traders and and settles interest payments daily.

I like this idea.  What do we need to make it happen?

Offline Pheonike


Could set up a swap market like bitfinex that loans to traders and and settles interest payments daily.

Offline devlux

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Shortly after posting my question, I found this...
https://bitshares.org/technology/price-stable-cryptocurrencies/

Is it current?

Yes siree,
Does it disrupt your business model significantly?  I suppose when released, you can use an exchange usd like ccdek, or even create your own bitasset.  There will probably be a common one that everyone gravitates to.  Yeah so no more interest until a bond market is created.

Kills off half the value proposition for me. 
The yield is the thing guys.  I want my money to grow, not sit there depreciating or barely treading water.

I shouldn't have to babysit a bond market and hit sell if the borrower defaults or whatever and hope I caught it in enough time to extract my value back.

My god someone has to create it and as far as I knew the yield thing was the reason we allowed them to.  How does the coming change fix any of the problems?  I'm sorry maybe I'm stupid, but I really just don't get it.

If I want a random dollar pegged crypto I can get tetherUSD or one of the other feed coins.

The dollar peg is nice don't get me wrong, but until bitUSD acceptance is ubiquitous I'll need a reason to hold it and a superior interest rate IS that reason.  Or at least it WAS the reason.

I'm doing what I can to increase acceptance, by integrating it into the new ATMs.  But that will take time to grow.  Also there are fees for changing into and out of fiat, without a yield it makes almost no sense to even acquire it since the yield is the thing people use to offset the cost of acquisition and also the reason for mopping up the liquidity by holding.

Can someone tell me where I'm wrong here?  Alternatively is there a crypto that functions like bitUSD used to?  I have some cash I'd like to just park and watch grow again.

Thanks!

Offline topcandle

Shortly after posting my question, I found this...
https://bitshares.org/technology/price-stable-cryptocurrencies/

Is it current?

Yes siree,
Does it disrupt your business model significantly?  I suppose when released, you can use an exchange usd like ccdek, or even create your own bitasset.  There will probably be a common one that everyone gravitates to.  Yeah so no more interest until a bond market is created.
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Offline devlux

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