Author Topic: Looking for well stated arguments for why the government cannot censor crypto  (Read 9435 times)

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Offline puppies

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While many of the technologies that crypto relies upon can be censored by the state.  We can design our systems to require massive expense and overreach to prevent their use.

According to  https://mises.org/library/politics-obedience-discourse-voluntary-servitude-0/0 all states rely upon the consent of the governed, and can only get away with what we let them.

Masking our traffic within a system that would be political suicide to block should give us the ability to not be censored.
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Offline Ben Mason

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In order to become truely decentralised we would need decentralised energy production/distribution and a decentralised Internet.

In the meantime, the only way to limit interference is via cost. The expense being political or financial.

Can the network grow and evolve fast and widely enough that the cost outweighs the benefit?  We are clearly  in a race to boil the proverbial frog.

Given that currently there are unlimited funds available, there is presumably no financial cost. The political costs are all based around what level of tyranny the populous are prepared to accept.


Offline Empirical1.2

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Shadow economies account for around 23%  percent of world GDP and 1.8 billion people earn their living in the black market.  (A black market or underground economy is a market in which goods or services are traded illegally. The key distinction of a black market trade is that the transaction itself is illegal.) Even in countries like the US, the size of the black market is considerable -
 
Quote
Estimates are that underground activity in the US last year totalled as much as $2 trillion...

"Businesses are not angels, and they exist to make a profit," Padilla said. "They are going to do everything they can to keep costs down.."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100668336

So while governments & law enforcement could potentially limit mainstream adoption, it is clear that they are unable to stop the supply of any products & services that are in high demand. Crypto-currencies are arguably superior than existing options for multiple use cases & are becoming more & more user friendly. So there is at the very least, little Governments as a whole can do to stop crypto-currencies capturing their rightful share of at least 23% of global GDP.

Black markets are also counter-cyclical in that they increase during recessions. Given that banks are over-leveraged and indebted governments are moving to policies such as higher taxes, capital controls, ZIRP & a war on cash, we will see more people seeking out financial alternatives like crypto-currencies regardless of the law.

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html


At the end of the day, the great Firewall of China can be applied to any country at any time. 

Gambling is illegal in China however some of the UK's largest gambling businesses do tens of billions in business there every year.

Quote
• Bet365 frequently changes its website addresses in China, thereby side-stepping attempts by local regulators to close sites down.

• The company has constructed a complex payments system that allows it to take bets placed using China’s currency, the renminbi.


http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/03/bet365-profit-china-online-gambling

If one the world's leading centralised gambling companies can bypass the great firewall of China to do tens of billions in gambling business annually, how can decentralised companies be curtailed in countries where the general public are also unlikely to allow that level of internet censorship?

« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 09:16:43 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline luckybit

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I suggest we find a balance. We need to preserve privacy not because it's "privacy vs security" but in order to protect security. People who have more privacy in their transactions are more secure from certain kinds of adversaries, this may include political but it may also include organized crime.

At the same time while I endorse the idea of making transactions private, I don't think it's realistic to believe that the people who want to abuse privacy to hide from the IRS will somehow not ever have to pay taxes because of some advanced cryptography. The IRS does not have a history of ever giving up and isn't going to run out of resources.

So we have to make a clear distinction when we discuss privacy to explain the use cases for it and that it's being promoted not to help bad actors, but to help good actors. We also have to understand that good and bad actors can be anywhere, including in the government, or in law enforcement, so we cannot side with any organization or institution or state in my opinion, but instead side with the individual civilians who are trying to keep themselves safe from abuse from the top down authority or from the bottom up mob.

I'm sorry if anyone was looking for well stated arguments for why the government can't censor crypto. The only argument I can offer is that crypto doesn't make things immune from censorship in particular but it does make it more expensive. It's the same theory behind Proof of Work, where ultimately the security is in the expense, the costs, which act as a deterrent.

Certain kinds of surveillance probably shouldn't be so cheap. If the surveillance is being abused politically, then it's too cheap.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 05:39:00 pm by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Everyone in the crypto currency space presumes that Bitcoin and other P2P protocols create a censorship resistant finanical platform.

Most idealists are naive. Bitcoin and any protocol running on civilian hardware can be interfered with by cyber operations. It's more that at this time the Bitcoin protocol and it's users do not represent a threat which requires that certain capabilities be used.

I don't think Tor, Linux, or any software is "censorship resistant" because based on my knowledge of security I don't think any hardware or software can be fully trusted. I do think that it's more expensive, more difficult, and probably effective against certain specific governments but not against the technologically sophisticated governments capable of advanced persistent attacks.
It is my opinion, that any PUBLIC P2P network can easily be censored by ISPs.  If you can join the network, then you can discover the IP and PORT of every publicly accessible node and then block all packets to/from those nodes on those ports.
This isn't the case. ISPs don't have the ability to detect the traffic if it's masked. I would say most people don't know how to mask their traffic though, and currently Bitcoin isn't anywhere near anonymous or masked. The idea that Bitcoin or any of these coins are anonymous is giving people a false sense of security in my opinion.

That isn't to say that you couldn't upgrade it or use it in a way so that it is anonymous but it takes a level of expertise that most people don't have which means relatively few people would be capable of doing it, and the government could simply monitor the few people they know who would be capable or the people who they believe have the desire to do so, which would probably include people searching for anonymous currencies on Google.

Browsers can be tagged so when people use their browser their surfing habits are known. So unless a person really knows what they are doing they wont even be able to download these sorts of apps without the government and law enforcement knowing they went to the site and this is assuming there aren't any bugs or zero day exploits like the recent one which effects 99% of Android users or the one which effects all versions of Windows.

Furthermore, every website that hosts content (binaries, source, and seed node IPs) can be shut down in a similar manner.
Worse than that, they can be honeypot traps set up by the government to sneak a bug into the binaries. Silk Road was shut down but it was reborn and most likely that was an example of a honeypot. Any website and a lot of altcoins claiming to offer methods which could easily help people commit crimes, at least one or some of them could be a virus. Malware hidden inside the binaries would probably be something a government would do, or the hidden rootkit.

If governments wanted to attack the industry they would simply put the rootkits in the binaries. Since most people install binaries and don't compile source code it would mean most people are vulnerable. Even the most paranoid individuals who want to compile their own code could fall for the backdoor which could be hidden in popular Linux compilers.

Even MaidSafe and Tor are not able to prevent this kind of censorship. 
They aren't and I told the Maidsafe team that there will be some difficulties but at this point in time they are confident they'll be able to overcome it. But in general I would say while Maidsafe is much more secure than Dropbox, it's not something I would bet my life on or commit crimes with.
Now clearly, it would be difficult to engage in this kind of censorship on a global scale.   The end result would be for people to move to VPN systems, which would in turn come under attack because they are "publicly known".   
VPNs are actually one of the most secure ways for a person to defend themselves and some VPNs accept Bitcoin. I would say go the VPN route as a counter-measure against ISP surveillance but that doesn't stop people from tracking your IP address around the web with or without VPN, or from tracking your GPU.

At the end of the day, the great Firewall of China can be applied to any country at any time. 
True but the only thing we can do is make it more expensive to apply it. If it costs a lot it means less countries can do it. So I suppose the idea of making it expensive so that only perhaps the rich nations can do it, because the alternative would be worse.
If that were to happen then consensus would have to move to dark networks, on an invite-only basis and the utility of crypto-currencies in general would be dramatically undercut. 

In other words, crypto-currencies currently depend upon free speech. 

They don't depend on it but they assume it. I would say crypto-currencies is better than the world without it though because the pros outweigh the cons, but I don't think that crypto-currencies are anonymous. This is why I'm focused more on promoting adoption than anonymity because you attract different people when you promote anonymity than when you promote mainstream adoption.

I think anonymity is a lot harder, but I do think we need some of it because privacy is necessary. It might not be impossible to track people, it might require the NSA and military capabilities, but that is in my opinion probably necessary or you could have political abuses which outweigh whatever benefit that law enforcement claims you gain from being able to see every transaction all the time.

If a person is a terrorist suspect then there are intelligence agencies with authority to use the equipment and resources necessary to track them. So for example that teenager who tried to help ISIS get into using Bitcoin? That kid was likely under surveillance but that is a different thing from putting every transaction in the public for everyone to see. If it's only to stop terrorism then it has to be expensive to see it.

We live in a world where despite the government's best efforts illegal music, movies, and other content manages to survive.   What does this tell us?   How can centralized services provide us magnet links to torrents with public IPs and those hosts are not shut down?

Illegal content, illegal activities, is a different concern from terrorism and national security. When lives are at stake then it isn't politically controversial to use everything we have to protect life. "Crime" in the vague open ended flexible since of the word could mean anything they say it means, and law enforcers enforce the law, which can be interpreted in different ways at different times. Considering the United States has way too many prisoners I don't have as much sympathy for the "crime" argument as I do for the terrorism argument.

For crime, if the crime involves a threat to people's lives then I would say it rises in importance to be worth spending the necessary resources to de-anonymize whomever is behind it. Also if it's a huge scam with billions of dollars stolen then also I would say you might be able to make a case to spend many millions to recover billions. On the other hand it doesn't make much economic sense to arrest file sharers, drug users, or people who do victimless crimes to make ends meet.

That is where the political controversy is. It's in whether or not law enforcement needs the power to have all transactions under surveillance all the time to enforce all types of laws instead of just a very narrow set of laws.
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Offline mike623317

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"We live in a world where despite the government's best efforts illegal music, movies, and other content manages to survive."... But we constantly hear this drum beat that we need to sensor the Internet. If it's not terrorism, it's patent infringement etc.

I see the Internet becoming less free. That said, why allow crypto? I think the cost savings to banking are huge. In a world of far too much debt, these cost savings may be too good to ignore. It also gives govt control if cash goes away and digital currencies proceed.

I think the biggest issue is govt is banks want absolutely control over a currency. I'm not sure how we can have a free Internet for some and not others.

My 2 cents


Offline mint chocolate chip

Toast is just following the money.   When his paycheck ran out, he went to work for music, and then went to google.   It is better for him to earn $$$ and invest than to work for BTS.

I thought he burned the google bridge by choosing to work for BTS.

Nope, he is currently working at google.

Really?  :o  Since when?
Someone mentioned it in a random comment here about a month ago, he is also working for MAKER

Offline cube

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Toast is just following the money.   When his paycheck ran out, he went to work for music, and then went to google.   It is better for him to earn $$$ and invest than to work for BTS.

I thought he burned the google bridge by choosing to work for BTS.

Nope, he is currently working at google.

Really?  :o  Since when?
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Offline Ander

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Toast is just following the money.   When his paycheck ran out, he went to work for music, and then went to google.   It is better for him to earn $$$ and invest than to work for BTS.

I thought he burned the google bridge by choosing to work for BTS.

Nope, he is currently working at google.
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Offline NewMine

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Toast is just following the money.   When his paycheck ran out, he went to work for music, and then went to google.   It is better for him to earn $$$ and invest than to work for BTS.

I thought he burned the google bridge by choosing to work for BTS.

Offline NewMine

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If blockchains could operate on something like a mesh network , it has a chance of being completely distributed.

I have stated here and over on BTT over the past years that bitcoin and the likes are not decentralized as they are beholden to the laws of the land. Either through control of the ISP's or downright outlawing exchange and possession. 

Offline Thom

Doh! I knew I should have posted those questions separately!
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Offline bytemaster

Toast is just following the money.   When his paycheck ran out, he went to work for music, and then went to google.   It is better for him to earn $$$ and invest than to work for BTS.   
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Offline Thom

I would like to see Mesh Networks begin to proliferate as a solution to ISP censorship. Here's a cool article about how FireChat was used during the protests in Hong Kong.

http://berkeleytechreview.com/firechat-and-activism/

^^^ This. I just updated the firmware in my router to DD-WRT which has features with mesh networks specifically in mind. WE NEED TO DECENTRALIZE CONTROL OF THE INTERNET YESTERDAY!

BM, your question prompts me to ask, given how well I KNOW you understand the issue of censorship through DNS / ICANN, why you decided to shift focus away from this, away from your team's efforts to decentralize DNS, an effort I saw as a foundational aspect of the early BitShares vision - how did it loose importance in your eyes relative to other competing efforts like VOTE, just to name one? What this a significant factor in toast deciding to move on?
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