Author Topic: Looking for well stated arguments for why the government cannot censor crypto  (Read 9451 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit

The Internet was necessary in the context of a Cold War.


What exactly is this reference too?


We have many trillions actually. The amount of wealth we have which goes untapped is primarily due to the fact that 1) we aren't currently able to sell our unused computation resources, 2) we aren't currently able to sell our unused storage resources, 3) we aren't currently able to sell our unused bandwidth, 4) we aren't currently able to auction our attention

The interesting development is all of this is changing as we speak. A year from now we will have DACs which take full advantage of micropayments and once you bring micropayments operational, combined with the other elements I mentioned, there are easily trillions of dollars of wealth there. So I don't think there is any sort of wealth shortage, just the misdirection and centralization of that wealth, or in some cases people don't even recognize that what they have is a form of wealth. Attention is wealth, spare computing resources are wealth, knowledge is wealth, all can be turned into cryptocurrency.

This really amounts to trillions? If sold, to who exactly? In the context of my statement I suggested that trillions going towards a whole new physical infrastructure. At what point does it become worth trillions? So far we only had the biggest boy grow to $3 billion.. and where all that wealth has gone certainly doesn't appear to be of any major good.. especially if you agree with John Underwoods assessment of all Bitcoin is used for.

Computation is a commodity and is immensely valuable. Easily worth trillions when you think about the fact that all businesses and all people rely on it. HPC is immensely valuable as well.

Protein folding? Searching for aliens? Decentralized search engines? All possible.  Google's market cap alone is almost 400 billion. Yes there are trillions of dollars available in untapped resources.

The attention economy? Micropayments? That is completely untapped, it's hundreds of billions or perhaps trillions of dollars of monetization. Attention was enough to give people free TV, to power the entire advertising industry, Google and Facebook are advertising companies. Auctioning your attention gives you the money.

Honestly it's not easy to calculate exactly how much money but considering there would be billions of people involved, and considering the US economy alone is over 10 trillion, and global economy over 100 trillion? I would say trillions is reasonable.

That doesn't mean it's a guarantee. During the dot com bubble a lot of people made money and lost money, and many people avoided using the web entirely. I would say what we are talking about here is the birth of a different kind of blockchain web which can decentralize everything, computation, storage, and bandwidth.

The money earned from automation, from attention, from computation, from storage, can be used by each person to pay for bandwidth. So if you easily get say $400 a year just for your attention, that is easily enough money to pay for bandwidth for the whole year. 400 times 500 million? 20,000,000,000 a year.

1% of the world economy is around 1 trillion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_economy
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 01:31:05 am by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode


The Internet was necessary in the context of a Cold War.


What exactly is this reference too?


We have many trillions actually. The amount of wealth we have which goes untapped is primarily due to the fact that 1) we aren't currently able to sell our unused computation resources, 2) we aren't currently able to sell our unused storage resources, 3) we aren't currently able to sell our unused bandwidth, 4) we aren't currently able to auction our attention

The interesting development is all of this is changing as we speak. A year from now we will have DACs which take full advantage of micropayments and once you bring micropayments operational, combined with the other elements I mentioned, there are easily trillions of dollars of wealth there. So I don't think there is any sort of wealth shortage, just the misdirection and centralization of that wealth, or in some cases people don't even recognize that what they have is a form of wealth. Attention is wealth, spare computing resources are wealth, knowledge is wealth, all can be turned into cryptocurrency.

This really amounts to trillions? If sold, to who exactly? In the context of my statement I suggested that trillions going towards a whole new physical infrastructure. At what point does it become worth trillions? So far we only had the biggest boy grow to $3 billion.. and where all that wealth has gone certainly doesn't appear to be of any major good.. especially if you agree with John Underwoods assessment of all Bitcoin is used for.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
www.Peerplays.com | Decentralized Gaming Built with Graphene - Now with BookiePro and Sweeps!
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
It is my opinion, that any PUBLIC P2P network can easily be censored by ISPs.  If you can join the network, then you can discover the IP and PORT of every publicly accessible node and then block all packets to/from those nodes on those ports.
Furthermore, every website that hosts content (binaries, source, and seed node IPs) can be shut down in a similar manner.
Even MaidSafe and Tor are not able to prevent this kind of censorship. 

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/isps-intentionally-blocking-bitcoin/

I don't think censorship is realistic in the long term but that isn't the issue. The issue is could they censor it in a way so that only hardcore hackers can access it? Yes they can and it would be a lot like what happens in China.

The point is, no you cannot censor Bitcoin but you can make it inconvenient for people to use it uncensored. Bitcoin transactions don't have to be transmitted through the Internet but most people don't have a clue about software defined radio, don't have a clue about the other ways to use Bitcoin, and just want it on their smart phone.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit

At the end of the day, you are attempting to create decentralization on a centralized network. That is the crux of it all. The Internet is 'open' to the extend that ISPs allow it to be. Remember that it was born out of needing a military solution for communication. :) They like stuff locked down.

Politicians want centralization. The military actually doesn't want centralization. The concept of decentralized networks originate from the military particularly because they actually work.

Centralization benefits politicians, not necessarily always national security. The military specifically has an entire study of warfare based on leaderless networks. The military pioneered the study of asymmetric warfare, UAVs, all of the encryption we talk about, all comes from and was used to support military operations. So I would say the government isn't monolithic, and you have people in the government who genuinely care about winning wars more than politics, and who genuinely care more about operational security than politics, and if you can produce a technology which can help them win and improve operational security then it will be accepted.

The Internet was necessary in the context of a Cold War.


Anyhow, a few cursory mentions of mesh network have been made, something that I am very familiar with in creating solutions for harsh environments to bring Internet access there.

The US government has a technology called disruption tolerent networks, these are unique military grade mesh networks for use in emergency situations.  To this date the US government and US military are on the forefront.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking

Anonymous currency doesn't intrigue them as much because they never had a problem transferring value anonymously, but there could be situations where if a currency were truly anonymous (not the stuff we have now), then maybe it would become something militarily interesting. On the other hand I'm not sure that is a development we would want because interesting in the military context often isn't good for civilian safety.


There is some merit to it, the problem is you are essentially creating a whole new infrastructure. Anybody got a few trillion in their back pocket connect several billion people?

We have many trillions actually. The amount of wealth we have which goes untapped is primarily due to the fact that 1) we aren't currently able to sell our unused computation resources, 2) we aren't currently able to sell our unused storage resources, 3) we aren't currently able to sell our unused bandwidth, 4) we aren't currently able to auction our attention.

The interesting development is all of this is changing as we speak. A year from now we will have DACs which take full advantage of micropayments and once you bring micropayments operational, combined with the other elements I mentioned, there are easily trillions of dollars of wealth there. So I don't think there is any sort of wealth shortage, just the misdirection and centralization of that wealth, or in some cases people don't even recognize that what they have is a form of wealth. Attention is wealth, spare computing resources are wealth, knowledge is wealth, all can be turned into cryptocurrency.


It would only work with wirless connectivity of communities. ISPs own the hard lines, and those ISPs have upstreams that are owned by the handful of companies that provide the backbone to the internet.

Drones, UAVs, blimps, all can provide access to satellite Internet. DTN can also create a mesh network on the ground. It might not be as fast but it would be good enough to do stuff. You also have the wireless spectrum which isn't even being used.
If crypto suddenly is accounting for some % of GDP to a government, would it be in their best interest to censor it? Politicians are dumb, they would either ignore it, or would want to find a way to tax it and or make it grow for more tax. Why censor it?

I could be wrong, maybe someone will put in a worker proposal to spend a few trillion on building out nodes worldwide to connect everyone and have it all owned by the blockchain in the end. At that stage though.. we might need worker proposals for tanks, missiles, and drones to defend them from governments.  :-X

Here is how it seems to work, you have the political side of the government which cares a lot about societal stability. They are the side which is most concerned about Bitcoin and anything else which could be disruptive or have negative social impacts. Then you have sides of the government which cares about science, or military operations, and they are focused on their objectives which might not even be domestic.

The side of the government most concerned about social instability is obviously the FBI. The FBI is also very concerned about encryption, because their mission is to enforce laws and stop crimes. The NSA and military on the other hand could care less because it's not their mission to concern themselves with domestic politics.

In order to be successful in growing a technology you at least have to know the stakeholders, and you have to know what each has to lose or gain from your technology. The entire US government isn't a single entity, and there are different groups which gain or lose with different technologies. Encryption is very popular with certain parts of the government and then hated by other parts. Law enforcement in particular hates encryption because their mission forces them to hate it, while the NSA loves encryption when it's American citizens using it but hates it when anyone else is using it.

The NSA by their mission is not supposed to spy on American citizens. Most of the time they don't, and they follow their mission.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 10:26:55 pm by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline brainbug

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
Isn't this exactly what Monero is trying to do: become invisible if needed. They have (or work on) I2P, etc... technology. I'm not an expert here, just reading the web.

38PTSWarrior

  • Guest
Cameras in the hands of almost every little bro is not an illusion of the power individuals have to spy on The Man.

what you can do with Peertracks: (we r on the same team)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_wMTrVfv8c#t=40s
Plus a trillion

Offline kenCode

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
    • View Profile
    • Agorise
It is my opinion, that any PUBLIC P2P network can easily be censored by ISPs.  If you can join the network, then you can discover the IP and PORT of every publicly accessible node and then block all packets to/from those nodes on those ports.
Furthermore, every website that hosts content (binaries, source, and seed node IPs) can be shut down in a similar manner.
Even MaidSafe and Tor are not able to prevent this kind of censorship. 

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/isps-intentionally-blocking-bitcoin/
kenCode - Decentraliser @ Agorise
Matrix/Keybase/Hive/Commun/Github: @Agorise
www.PalmPay.chat

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

I suggest we find a balance. We need to preserve privacy not because it's "privacy vs security" but in order to protect security. People who have more privacy in their transactions are more secure from certain kinds of adversaries, this may include political but it may also include organized crime.

At the same time while I endorse the idea of making transactions private, I don't think it's realistic to believe that the people who want to abuse privacy to hide from the IRS will somehow not ever have to pay taxes because of some advanced cryptography. The IRS does not have a history of ever giving up and isn't going to run out of resources.

So we have to make a clear distinction when we discuss privacy to explain the use cases for it and that it's being promoted not to help bad actors, but to help good actors. We also have to understand that good and bad actors can be anywhere, including in the government, or in law enforcement, so we cannot side with any organization or institution or state in my opinion, but instead side with the individual civilians who are trying to keep themselves safe from abuse from the top down authority or from the bottom up mob.

I'm sorry if anyone was looking for well stated arguments for why the government can't censor crypto. The only argument I can offer is that crypto doesn't make things immune from censorship in particular but it does make it more expensive. It's the same theory behind Proof of Work, where ultimately the security is in the expense, the costs, which act as a deterrent.

Certain kinds of surveillance probably shouldn't be so cheap. If the surveillance is being abused politically, then it's too cheap.

There has been a lot said and I am just quoting @luckybit because he appeared to fire most cylinders on all the issues surrounding.

At the end of the day, you are attempting to create decentralization on a centralized network. That is the crux of it all. The Internet is 'open' to the extend that ISPs allow it to be. Remember that it was born out of needing a military solution for communication. :) They like stuff locked down.

Anyhow, a few cursory mentions of mesh network have been made, something that I am very familiar with in creating solutions for harsh environments to bring Internet access there. There is some merit to it, the problem is you are essentially creating a whole new infrastructure. Anybody got a few trillion in their back pocket connect several billion people?

It would only work with wirless connectivity of communities. ISPs own the hard lines, and those ISPs have upstreams that are owned by the handful of companies that provide the backbone to the internet.

So short of creating a whole other internet (if we do.. PLEASE make it with a better protocol than IP), I guess to answer the OPs question is to respond with the question of why it would be good for governments to censor crypto?

If crypto suddenly is accounting for some % of GDP to a government, would it be in their best interest to censor it? Politicians are dumb, they would either ignore it, or would want to find a way to tax it and or make it grow for more tax. Why censor it?

I could be wrong, maybe someone will put in a worker proposal to spend a few trillion on building out nodes worldwide to connect everyone and have it all owned by the blockchain in the end. At that stage though.. we might need worker proposals for tanks, missiles, and drones to defend them from governments.  :-X
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
www.Peerplays.com | Decentralized Gaming Built with Graphene - Now with BookiePro and Sweeps!
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Offline bitmeat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1116
    • View Profile
I would like to see Mesh Networks begin to proliferate as a solution to ISP censorship. Here's a cool article about how FireChat was used during the protests in Hong Kong.

http://berkeleytechreview.com/firechat-and-activism/

^^^ This. I just updated the firmware in my router to DD-WRT which has features with mesh networks specifically in mind. WE NEED TO DECENTRALIZE CONTROL OF THE INTERNET YESTERDAY!

BM, your question prompts me to ask, given how well I KNOW you understand the issue of censorship through DNS / ICANN, why you decided to shift focus away from this, away from your team's efforts to decentralize DNS, an effort I saw as a foundational aspect of the early BitShares vision - how did it loose importance in your eyes relative to other competing efforts like VOTE, just to name one? What this a significant factor in toast deciding to move on?

http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/07/FCC-Blocks-Open-Source

Funny, DD-WRT and such will be impossible going forward.

Offline Thom


Certain kinds of surveillance probably shouldn't be so cheap. If the surveillance is being abused politically, then it's too cheap.

cheap surveillance allows little bro to spy on big bro. when surveillance was expensive this was not possible before. i welcome a world where everyone can see what everyone else is doing. control is derived from scarcity of something u want and only i have
Cheap surveillance allows the illusion that the little bro is able to spy on the big bro. Big bro will always out spend, out man, out innovate the little bro before little bro ever smells what's going on. Your statement suggests that you don't respect or care for privacy and look forward to a world where complete transparency rules all.

With that said....
Can I have the passwords to everyone of your personal email addresses?  I promise I won't use it, I'll only browse. If you welcome transparency and got nothing to hide, I don't see what your hold up would be. Someone's gotta be the first. Why not ye who encourages this brave new world? I intend to search you personal correspondences, any financial statements that are sent, see all the email lists you belong to, who sends you messages on FB etc. etc. etc.
+5% for the last paragraph, but your not accurate about the illusion. I'll agree that little bro's spying capabilities are much more limited than big bro's, but think of all the cops caught in the act of abusing their authority. That's brought about by cheap, ubiquitous cell phone tech. Cameras in the hands of almost every little bro is not an illusion of the power individuals have to spy on The Man.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline monsterer

Is there nothing in between? Paypal is legal and hasn't replaced fiat even though it could have (technically)

The reason I think it'll go either way is that you cannot really regulate crypto, all attempts to do so will be like trying to stop peer to peer file sharing services. Given this fact, if it becomes big enough to pose a real tax 'problem' to governments, they will outlaw it.

There is no other version of true digital cash in existance, paypal is just convenient banking, you never truly own the money, only an IOU. That is what is truly unique about crypto and why it is superior to all existing attempts at digital money.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12922
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
I've always maintained that it will go one of two ways:

1) cryptocurrencies are outlawed by all governments
2) cryptocurrencies completely replace fiat
Is there nothing in between? Paypal is legal and hasn't replaced fiat even though it could have (technically)

Offline monsterer

I've always maintained that it will go one of two ways:

1) cryptocurrencies are outlawed by all governments
2) cryptocurrencies completely replace fiat
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline NewMine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
    • View Profile

Certain kinds of surveillance probably shouldn't be so cheap. If the surveillance is being abused politically, then it's too cheap.

cheap surveillance allows little bro to spy on big bro. when surveillance was expensive this was not possible before. i welcome a world where everyone can see what everyone else is doing. control is derived from scarcity of something u want and only i have
Cheap surveillance allows the illusion that the little bro is able to spy on the big bro. Big bro will always out spend, out man, out innovate the little bro before little bro ever smells what's going on. Your statement suggests that you don't respect or care for privacy and look forward to a world where complete transparency rules all.

With that said....
Can I have the passwords to everyone of your personal email addresses?  I promise I won't use it, I'll only browse. If you welcome transparency and got nothing to hide, I don't see what your hold up would be. Someone's gotta be the first. Why not ye who encourages this brave new world? I intend to search you personal correspondences, any financial statements that are sent, see all the email lists you belong to, who sends you messages on FB etc. etc. etc.

Offline Empirical1.2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
    • View Profile
As always, the government cannot overpower people who want to be sovereign because those people are too large in number and they are so few.  The blockchain simply leverages the power of it to empower us, like with all technology, to the ends toward which they are applied. 

Governments, therefore cannot censor this movement...we have to willingly do so.

Did you see Colin Powell's former chief of staff recently said that U.S. Policy is controlled by 400 people who have a combined net worth of trillions.

At least you guys try to hide it  :) In England the current prime-minister (president), Finance Minister and the Mayor of London we're all members of the impossibly exclusive  Bullingdon Club at Oxford University. Nathan Rothschild for example was also a recent member. One of their initiation rituals is burning a £50 note in front of a beggar.

The club was recently dramatised in the 2014 film The Riot Club https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwv6h-LhTw



« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 02:40:08 am by Empirical1.2 »
If you want to take the island burn the boats