Author Topic: Curiosumé + Bitshares = Intrinsic Coin  (Read 4324 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
Thanks for the great comments - I didn't even know you had been discussing earlier.  The best thing to do is keep this really really simple and try not to get biased by what we have been told is or is not money, or value, or productivity, engineers, federal reserve, debt, gold, derivatives, etc,- these are distractions.  We are trained to be confused so that we can't see the vulnerability of the system we are trying to replace.  Don't try to power-think, you need to trust the calculus. 

First - an "asset" is a very important term that should not be tossed around like some sort of emotion.  An asset must be described in terms of a quantity and a quality [Asset = F(Q,q)].  So, to say that "water" is and asset, is to be confused. Is it 3 oz of water or 300 acre ft of water (Quantity)?  Is it drinking water or is it process water to keep solar panels cool (Quality)? "quality does NOT mean best to worst, greater or lesser, winner or loser, etc - this is the "competition" virus that causes us to hate, fear, and fight each other. Quality is entirely dependent on the productivity of the water - drinking water does not compete with process water.  Therefore an Asset, by definition is intrinsic. 

Second, long before colleges and universities - all hugely centralized institutions -  and engineer was someone who makes useful things for other people - the engineer increased the productivity of a person by inventing say, wheel, wedge, and pulley.  That is what I mean by Engineer.  Again, this is intrinsic by definition.  "Ingenesist" is derived from the latin term for engineer.

Here's a mind bender "Money MUST represent productivity otherwise nobody would work (do productive stuff) in exchange for it" - dwell on that for a moment. To test this idea, every time you hear the word "money" replace that with the word "productivity" if it still makes sense, believe what you hear. If it does not, you are being lied to. 

Value = productivity = data; dv/dt = rate of change of productivity with respect to time = information, d^2v/dt = knowledge, d^3v/dt = innovation, d^4v/dt = wisdom.  These are the derivatives of productivity.  A derivative is something whose value is derived from something else.

Next; we are trained to believe that productivity is the manufacture of tangible goods like cars, coal, and ipods.  However, "motherhood" is not counted in the GDP yet is responsible for every taxpayer on earth.  Benevolence, empathy, creativity, leadership, nurturing, etc., are all forms of productivity for which there is no accounting system.  These are called Intangibles on a balance sheet.  They don't weant you to know this because this is the source of all value.

Curiosumé is that accounting system. 
 
It takes a little bit of untraining before we can move forward.

I would love to see an explanation of your theory based on the motivations of individuals.

Quote
Methodological individualism is the requirement that causal accounts of social phenomena explain how they result from the motivations and actions of individual agents, at least in principle.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodological_individualism)

It is not that I disagree with you anywhere it is just that I haven't seen any explanation that makes me see how individuals are incentivised to act diverently from today's money types.

In the  money theory post I listed in my post above I tried to describe today's credit money system in that way (at least parts of it):
Quote
I go to some institution (bank) which  issues money that is used widely and the reason the institution (a bank) issues money and gives it to me based on the mutual agreement that I will pay it back is that I have convinced the bank that my future productivity will allow me to pay back the loan that I was just granted.

The individuals / entities that again are made up of individuals are: Me (borrowing money from the bank backed by my productivity), the bank granting me that loan.
The motivations are: Me needing liquidty / money. The bank making a profit from lending at high interests rates and borrwoing at lower interest rates. 
My argument was this: For a credit money system (like I guess you are proposing) you need a way to make all credits "the same" / fungible. Similar argument (monsterer): "we need a way to measure the quality of the work" .
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:39:48 am by delulo »

Offline monsterer

I like the idea of money being equal to work done * quality, but how on earth do you verify quality?
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
Hey all ... newbie here.

We need help on some ideas that we are working on at The Ingenesist Project.  I've been on the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout for the last several months learning about this community.  I believe that here is great potential here.  Is this the right place to ask for interaction with this members of this group?  Let me know and hopefully we can start a thread.  Thank you very much.
I posted these two topics on Curiosume:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18212.0.html

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18214.0.html

Offline ingenesist

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
The value of a lazy day lying around is commonly referred to as "recreation".  I.e., to re-create oneself and is contingent on having been really productive for a long duration and need to recharge. As such, one's net productivity is ultimately greater over time.  Someone who sits around all day every day for years on end is not necessarily recreating and the value of the lounging is severely diminished in terms of their productivity.  Most people get tired of lounging around and need to go off and build something. See, it's really intuitive!!! 

Offline ingenesist

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Sorry for the symbols: actually "=" is really meant to signify  "proportional to".... and there are a bunch of pesky greek letters to deal with too, but those are formalities.    This is, however, the same calculus that drives wall street banks. The same calculus used by insurance companies,  the same calculus that explains planetary motion, the same calculus that predicts the diffusion of medicine across cell walls. It is extremely intuitive too - how does a person ride a bicycle or a baseball player know where the ball is going to land or how does Fuzzy do what he does?  you guessed it, it's all the same Calculus.   I just described something called the WIKiD tools algorithm - you'll see that this too is very intuitive once we un-train from what we've been told to believe.  Thank you for your patience. 

Bitshares is a big, fast, durable public ledger upon which the Curiosumé accounting system may be integrated.  Fuzzy mentions BidPool.  Bidpool is an innovation that we are testing which could decentralize all procurement of things into adjudicated smart contracts where the adjudicators are also decentralized.  We call this the "Value Game" and indeed, game mechanics will be important - not like Uno, more like WoW.  It can all be induced with the idea of a crypto-coin which possesses intrinsic value.


Offline puppies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: puppies
First of all welcome to the forum.  A couple of quick questions.

Quote
Value = productivity = data; dv/dt = rate of change of productivity with respect to time = information, d^2v/dt = knowledge, d^3v/dt = innovation, d^4v/dt = wisdom.
This has me pretty lost.  I am always wary when there are that many equal signs.  Obviously value != to wisdom, although perhaps you could say one is a subset of the other.  Overall I just have no idea what you mean.

How would you explain the value of a lazy day lounging around? 
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline fuzzy

Thanks for the great comments - I didn't even know you had been discussing earlier.  The best thing to do is keep this really really simple and try not to get biased by what we have been told is or is not money, or value, or productivity, engineers, federal reserve, debt, gold, derivatives, etc,- these are distractions.  We are trained to be confused so that we can't see the vulnerability of the system we are trying to replace.  Don't try to power-think, you need to trust the calculus. 

First - an "asset" is a very important term that should not be tossed around like some sort of emotion.  An asset must be described in terms of a quantity and a quality [Asset = F(Q,q)].  So, to say that "water" is and asset, is to be confused. Is it 3 oz of water or 300 acre ft of water (Quantity)?  Is it drinking water or is it process water to keep solar panels cool (Quality)? "quality does NOT mean best to worst, greater or lesser, winner or loser, etc - this is the "competition" virus that causes us to hate, fear, and fight each other. Quality is entirely dependent on the productivity of the water - drinking water does not compete with process water.  Therefore an Asset, by definition is intrinsic. 

Second, long before colleges and universities - all hugely centralized institutions -  and engineer was someone who makes useful things for other people - the engineer increased the productivity of a person by inventing say, wheel, wedge, and pulley.  That is what I mean by Engineer.  Again, this is intrinsic by definition.  "Ingenesist" is derived from the latin term for engineer.

Here's a mind bender "Money MUST represent productivity otherwise nobody would work (do productive stuff) in exchange for it" - dwell on that for a moment. To test this idea, every time you hear the word "money" replace that with the word "productivity" if it still makes sense, believe what you hear. If it does not, you are being lied to. 

Value = productivity = data; dv/dt = rate of change of productivity with respect to time = information, d^2v/dt = knowledge, d^3v/dt = innovation, d^4v/dt = wisdom.  These are the derivatives of productivity.  A derivative is something whose value is derived from something else.

Next; we are trained to believe that productivity is the manufacture of tangible goods like cars, coal, and ipods.  However, "motherhood" is not counted in the GDP yet is responsible for every taxpayer on earth.  Benevolence, empathy, creativity, leadership, nurturing, etc., are all forms of productivity for which there is no accounting system.  These are called Intangibles on a balance sheet.  They don't weant you to know this because this is the source of all value.

Curiosumé is that accounting system. 
 
It takes a little bit of untraining before we can move forward.
+5%

Hey all ... newbie here.

We need help on some ideas that we are working on at The Ingenesist Project.  I've been on the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout for the last several months learning about this community.  I believe that here is great potential here.  Is this the right place to ask for interaction with this members of this group?  Let me know and hopefully we can start a thread.  Thank you very much.
+5%

We are aware of who you are and of your project. You're in the right place.

How can a symbiotic relationship between Curiosume and Bitshares be formed?

One is something called "BidPool"...which is like a decentralized Angie's List for Engineers of all shapes and sizes.  Naturally, though, BitShares could use it as a means of getting worker-proposals fulfilled. 

There is much more to it though.  BidPool is just one application to what Curiosome creates.  I am not the expert though so I'm glad Dan stopped by to talk about his project.   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 06:02:43 am by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline ingenesist

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Thanks for the great comments - I didn't even know you had been discussing earlier.  The best thing to do is keep this really really simple and try not to get biased by what we have been told is or is not money, or value, or productivity, engineers, federal reserve, debt, gold, derivatives, etc,- these are distractions.  We are trained to be confused so that we can't see the vulnerability of the system we are trying to replace.  Don't try to power-think, you need to trust the calculus. 

First - an "asset" is a very important term that should not be tossed around like some sort of emotion.  An asset must be described in terms of a quantity and a quality [Asset = F(Q,q)].  So, to say that "water" is and asset, is to be confused. Is it 3 oz of water or 300 acre ft of water (Quantity)?  Is it drinking water or is it process water to keep solar panels cool (Quality)? "quality does NOT mean best to worst, greater or lesser, winner or loser, etc - this is the "competition" virus that causes us to hate, fear, and fight each other. Quality is entirely dependent on the productivity of the water - drinking water does not compete with process water.  Therefore an Asset, by definition is intrinsic. 

Second, long before colleges and universities - all hugely centralized institutions -  and engineer was someone who makes useful things for other people - the engineer increased the productivity of a person by inventing say, wheel, wedge, and pulley.  That is what I mean by Engineer.  Again, this is intrinsic by definition.  "Ingenesist" is derived from the latin term for engineer.

Here's a mind bender "Money MUST represent productivity otherwise nobody would work (do productive stuff) in exchange for it" - dwell on that for a moment. To test this idea, every time you hear the word "money" replace that with the word "productivity" if it still makes sense, believe what you hear. If it does not, you are being lied to. 

Value = productivity = data; dv/dt = rate of change of productivity with respect to time = information, d^2v/dt = knowledge, d^3v/dt = innovation, d^4v/dt = wisdom.  These are the derivatives of productivity.  A derivative is something whose value is derived from something else.

Next; we are trained to believe that productivity is the manufacture of tangible goods like cars, coal, and ipods.  However, "motherhood" is not counted in the GDP yet is responsible for every taxpayer on earth.  Benevolence, empathy, creativity, leadership, nurturing, etc., are all forms of productivity for which there is no accounting system.  These are called Intangibles on a balance sheet.  They don't weant you to know this because this is the source of all value.

Curiosumé is that accounting system. 
 
It takes a little bit of untraining before we can move forward. 

Offline Troglodactyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
    • View Profile
Hey all ... newbie here.

We need help on some ideas that we are working on at The Ingenesist Project.  I've been on the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout for the last several months learning about this community.  I believe that here is great potential here.  Is this the right place to ask for interaction with this members of this group?  Let me know and hopefully we can start a thread.  Thank you very much.

Welcome!

I'll just come right out and say Curiosume puzzles me.  Cross-posting from here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18214.msg232723.html#msg232723

Quote
All money is backed by the productivity of those who choose to use it; that's just how network effect works.  The more people there are who consider the currency valuable and who are willing and able to provide a variety of goods and services in exchange for it, the greater the utility of that currency.

I could be misunderstanding, but my initial impression was that Curiosume is an attempt to create a currency based on these principles without recognizing that this is already a big part of how every other currency works.

Just being honest here with no intention of being mean-spirited or overly critical.  I really don't understand how Curiosume is different from any other currency except that it's catering to engineers first as high value members of the global economy.  Hopefully you can tell me what I'm missing.

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
Hey all ... newbie here.

We need help on some ideas that we are working on at The Ingenesist Project.  I've been on the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout for the last several months learning about this community.  I believe that here is great potential here.  Is this the right place to ask for interaction with this members of this group?  Let me know and hopefully we can start a thread.  Thank you very much.
+5%

We are aware of who you are and of your project. You're in the right place.

How can a symbiotic relationship between Curiosume and Bitshares be formed?
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline emailtooaj

First I'd like to say thank you for being part of the Beyond Bitcoin hangouts and YES, absolutely this is the best place to communicate with this awesome community.  So please feel free to ask any questions you may have.  You'll get plenty of responses! 
Sound Editor of Beyondbitcoin Hangouts. Listen to latest here - https://beyondbitcoin.org support the Hangouts! BTS Tri-Fold Brochure https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15169.0.html
Tip BROWNIE.PTS to EMAILTOOAJ

Offline ingenesist

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Hey all ... newbie here.

We need help on some ideas that we are working on at The Ingenesist Project.  I've been on the Beyond Bitcoin Hangout for the last several months learning about this community.  I believe that here is great potential here.  Is this the right place to ask for interaction with this members of this group?  Let me know and hopefully we can start a thread.  Thank you very much.