Author Topic: Reducing Bitshares Supply : A different approach  (Read 11272 times)

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Offline Akado

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unless it was built by funding from a worker proposal :)

Yep, already mentioned on my first post in this thread. That would be ~5M BTS at current prices they would be asking for. It's up to the community to decide if that's worth it. Long term, assuming it works out, yeah, it's worth it. Guess long term supporters would vote this in, but short term ones wouldn't (or maybe they wouldnt even care)
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Offline fuzzy

If this thread is meant to be a sales pitch directed to BTS holders to raise 75 BTC, something very important is missing.
So far I've learned that your are very passionate about what your doing and I've been told about the technical details of your concept.

But as a potential investor I still don't know what I will get in return for funding your project.
Burning 50% of your fees is good for BTS as a whole but what is the deal for the investor?

That's the problem. If we only have fee burning, the ones who didn't help will also benefit. That's why I suggest paying back to whoever gave donations. Till they have their money back they receive a higher percentage of the profits because of the risk they took. Once they are paid back, this percentage lowers and freebie can get themselves more profit or burn more bitshares or whatever they want to do. People who donated can still continue to get some part of the profits but obviously a lower amount now since they got their money back. So:

People donate 75BTC
x% of profits are to pay back.
y% will be burn
z% will be kept by freebies as profit
with x>y>z

After people get their 75BTC back:
x% are paid as dividends
y% will be burn
z% will be kept by freebies as profit

with y >= x and y>=z. Z and X are to be discussed between investors and Freebieservers, however keep in mind any income from the referral system is already included in these profits Freebie pretend to share with the community so they won't be able to take full advantage of that.
In my opinion, after the 75BTC are paid back, as long as profits burnt are >=50% or higher, everyone from the community will be pleased. Does this seem a big amount? I dont think so since I strongly believe it will take quite a while for the 75BTC to be paid back. That leaves the other 50% to be shared between freebies and investors. This is just a suggestion though. I also understand freebies will take the same amount of time to be paid decently as the BTS community will take to have a higher percentage of profits being burnt so that will probably leave investors with the smaller piece of the pie. However, I dont think that would be ungrateful because not only would this bring in volume to BitShares but it would burn more fees and attrack more people. Everyone wins.

unless it was built by funding from a worker proposal :)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 06:22:37 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline Akado

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If this thread is meant to be a sales pitch directed to BTS holders to raise 75 BTC, something very important is missing.
So far I've learned that your are very passionate about what your doing and I've been told about the technical details of your concept.

But as a potential investor I still don't know what I will get in return for funding your project.
Burning 50% of your fees is good for BTS as a whole but what is the deal for the investor?

That's the problem. If we only have fee burning, the ones who didn't help will also benefit. That's why I suggest paying back to whoever gave donations. Till they have their money back they receive a higher percentage of the profits because of the risk they took. Once they are paid back, this percentage lowers and freebie can get themselves more profit or burn more bitshares or whatever they want to do. People who donated can still continue to get some part of the profits but obviously a lower amount now since they got their money back. So:

People donate 75BTC
x% of profits are to pay back.
y% will be burn
z% will be kept by freebies as profit
with x>y>z

After people get their 75BTC back:
x% are paid as dividends
y% will be burn
z% will be kept by freebies as profit

with y >= x and y>=z. Z and X are to be discussed between investors and Freebieservers, however keep in mind any income from the referral system is already included in these profits Freebie pretend to share with the community so they won't be able to take full advantage of that.
In my opinion, after the 75BTC are paid back, as long as profits burnt are >=50% or higher, everyone from the community will be pleased. Does this seem a big amount? I dont think so since I strongly believe it will take quite a while for the 75BTC to be paid back. That leaves the other 50% to be shared between freebies and investors. This is just a suggestion though. I also understand freebies will take the same amount of time to be paid decently as the BTS community will take to have a higher percentage of profits being burnt so that will probably leave investors with the smaller piece of the pie. However, I dont think that would be ungrateful because not only would this bring in volume to BitShares but it would burn more fees and attrack more people. Everyone wins.
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jakub

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If this thread is meant to be a sales pitch directed to BTS holders to raise 75 BTC, something very important is missing.
So far I've learned that your are very passionate about what your doing and I've been told about the technical details of your concept.

But as a potential investor I still don't know what I will get in return for funding your project.
Burning 50% of your fees is good for BTS as a whole but what is the deal for the investor?

Offline MJK

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I like the idea very much but would like to read your full proposal please.
I think i would support this, but defer until i read more.

Offline Xypher

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Hi, I'm the CTO of Freebie, LLC and one of the development team members.

I normally stay away from this stuff... the spotlight is not where I like to be, my spelling and grammar is horrid and I don't take criticism well.

So now that we have gotten the obvious facts about me out of the way, let me say that I did not write the post above.  This project is not my idea, but it does have my backing.

About two years ago now I founded Freebie as a humble game server company, a friend and I gave it an honest shot with our paychecks and it fizzled out and failed... one day I was browsing hacking forums and I met this guy who was offering 'unlimited servers' for a partnership... this was a guy in India who had connections to some influential server companies (aws, ibm) and got me grants to run my company with literally no investment, just a promise of partnership...

Time goes on, and the grants ware off, no one gets free stuff forever right? so were stuck with a problem...
how do we fund and monetize a platform at the same time?
so this guy I met, there's something particularly special about him, I found... Among his many eccentricity's (and really hot blooded attitude) I found he has a passion... His passion was this crypto currency that I knew existed and understood some of the implications there of, but what i found truly magical was the way he saw this stuff,

He instantly recognized it for what it was, not just money, but a solution to many world problems, a fix for the corruption and greed that has ruined his own country, and many others.
You know, I'm not exactly a humble person, I like to think i know it all, but every day i look into this persons mind and I find new concepts and new ideas for changing the world that i never thought was possible...and you know a funny thing is that the vast majority of them are based around helping people (for a profit) and changing technology for the better.

so why am i telling you all this? isn't this a post about an exchange? who the heck is this kuro guy?
well you see the person who I've spent this time discussing goes under the guise of something I created,
every day he wears the name freebie servers (sometimes not for the better)

What I see too often, in this, and many other crypto currency communities is that the people with money are less interested in helping people and changing technology than they are
in making solid returns - I don't blame anyone for this, no one, in the end, is a true altruist. but that being said even those who don't bother a claim on such nonsense tend to stick with ideas that are 'sexy' and to me, this means repeating the same content over and over again in the name of healthy competition...

Too often do we see people with great marking skills get thrown tons of money and burn it away on nothing, while people with true game changing technology and skills get left in the dust.

In the end this has been going on for the better part of 4 years in crypto currencies and only now is technology like bitshares starting to emerge and discuss things like 'decentralized exchanges' as a possibility, and when it does come up in discussion, the natural reaction and backlash of most people is that its either impossible or too big of a task to undertake.

Freebie is a team of people dedicated to profit, change, mass adoption and cutting edge technology... each of us has our own story for how crypto has reached across the borders of this planet
and changed our lives... I don't know what you, reader, have for an economic situation, but I am not from a well off family, I grew up in Detroit, I work very hard for every satoshi I earn.

THAT is what sets us apart... we aren't casually into crypto, we don't do this in between our real lives, this is literally our lives - it reaches out across borders and allows us all to live a life of true freedom.

Freebie IS Crypto, Freebie IS the concept of Bitshares made reality.

Too much? too tacky? sorry, this is literally my first post in all of crypto... I told you I don't like the spotlight, but sometimes you guys frustrate me so much just watching it all play out, and watching this game of politics get played while nothing actually happens...

I hope that my ranting and our technical breakdown is enough for you to understand where we are coming from, and I will go silent once again to let freebie respond to your questions about the data.

Hope my words reached at least some people, thanks for your time.

-Kuro

Am usually the talkative one, but this guy has me silenced today.

Offline monsterer

For the majority of alts, they’ll all end up all using the same driver (the same as the bitcoin driver) since their RPC api is identical. There are however a few currencies that require individual connection classes (i.e. NXT, BTS, ETH to name a few).

All in all, this doesn’t take long, it just requires a bit of research on the alts you intend on setting up and their apis. The tedious task is setting up the daemons for each coin, but we’re going to not focus on the time that takes because we’re focused on the coding aspect of it.

You're talking about creating another metaexchange. Instead of trying to fund the creation of a competitor, why not work with us?

Shoot me a pm.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
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Offline kuro112

Hi, I'm the CTO of Freebie, LLC and one of the development team members.

I normally stay away from this stuff... the spotlight is not where I like to be, my spelling and grammar is horrid and I don't take criticism well.

So now that we have gotten the obvious facts about me out of the way, let me say that I did not write the post above.  This project is not my idea, but it does have my backing.

About two years ago now I founded Freebie as a humble game server company, a friend and I gave it an honest shot with our paychecks and it fizzled out and failed... one day I was browsing hacking forums and I met this guy who was offering 'unlimited servers' for a partnership... this was a guy in India who had connections to some influential server companies (aws, ibm) and got me grants to run my company with literally no investment, just a promise of partnership...

Time goes on, and the grants ware off, no one gets free stuff forever right? so were stuck with a problem...
how do we fund and monetize a platform at the same time?
so this guy I met, there's something particularly special about him, I found... Among his many eccentricity's (and really hot blooded attitude) I found he has a passion... His passion was this crypto currency that I knew existed and understood some of the implications there of, but what i found truly magical was the way he saw this stuff,

He instantly recognized it for what it was, not just money, but a solution to many world problems, a fix for the corruption and greed that has ruined his own country, and many others.
You know, I'm not exactly a humble person, I like to think i know it all, but every day i look into this persons mind and I find new concepts and new ideas for changing the world that i never thought was possible...and you know a funny thing is that the vast majority of them are based around helping people (for a profit) and changing technology for the better.

so why am i telling you all this? isn't this a post about an exchange? who the heck is this kuro guy?
well you see the person who I've spent this time discussing goes under the guise of something I created,
every day he wears the name freebie servers (sometimes not for the better)

What I see too often, in this, and many other crypto currency communities is that the people with money are less interested in helping people and changing technology than they are
in making solid returns - I don't blame anyone for this, no one, in the end, is a true altruist. but that being said even those who don't bother a claim on such nonsense tend to stick with ideas that are 'sexy' and to me, this means repeating the same content over and over again in the name of healthy competition...

Too often do we see people with great marking skills get thrown tons of money and burn it away on nothing, while people with true game changing technology and skills get left in the dust.

In the end this has been going on for the better part of 4 years in crypto currencies and only now is technology like bitshares starting to emerge and discuss things like 'decentralized exchanges' as a possibility, and when it does come up in discussion, the natural reaction and backlash of most people is that its either impossible or too big of a task to undertake.

Freebie is a team of people dedicated to profit, change, mass adoption and cutting edge technology... each of us has our own story for how crypto has reached across the borders of this planet
and changed our lives... I don't know what you, reader, have for an economic situation, but I am not from a well off family, I grew up in Detroit, I work very hard for every satoshi I earn.

THAT is what sets us apart... we aren't casually into crypto, we don't do this in between our real lives, this is literally our lives - it reaches out across borders and allows us all to live a life of true freedom.

Freebie IS Crypto, Freebie IS the concept of Bitshares made reality.

Too much? too tacky? sorry, this is literally my first post in all of crypto... I told you I don't like the spotlight, but sometimes you guys frustrate me so much just watching it all play out, and watching this game of politics get played while nothing actually happens...

I hope that my ranting and our technical breakdown is enough for you to understand where we are coming from, and I will go silent once again to let freebie respond to your questions about the data.

Hope my words reached at least some people, thanks for your time.

-Kuro
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:22:29 am by kuro112 »
CTO @ Freebie, LLC

Offline Xypher

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I need to owe up to something. Stating a "completely decentralized exchange for alts" in 3 weeks time, was a mistake on my behalf.
What I meant however was for bitshares pairs and assets. Again, because this can be done with the 2.0 API already.

We could possibly create a centralized exchange, but that kind of beats the purpose of what I wanted it to do.
Here is what my dev had to say.

Let’s use https://bittrex.com/ as our point of reference and ignore the idea of needing to create a public api as they’ve done.

Before we can get implementing the bid/ask system, first we must address depositing funds. We need to create a system for each currency we intend on supporting that has some basic features: creating a new address (so we can associate it with the user), querying the balance on an address, and sending funds. A abstract driver might look something like this:

public abstract class BaseRpcConnection
{
    public abstract decimal QueryBalance(string account);
    public abstract void Send(string account, string address);
    public abstract string CreateAddress();
    public abstract void Shift(string account, string master);
}

For the majority of alts, they’ll all end up all using the same driver (the same as the bitcoin driver) since their RPC api is identical. There are however a few currencies that require individual connection classes (i.e. NXT, BTS, ETH to name a few).

All in all, this doesn’t take long, it just requires a bit of research on the alts you intend on setting up and their apis. The tedious task is setting up the daemons for each coin, but we’re going to not focus on the time that takes because we’re focused on the coding aspect of it.

Somewhere in your database, you would store the information as such:
   username : string
   password : string
   rpcUrl : string

We could store port, but for some systems such as nxt, their end point isn’t simply the port but contains “/nxt” so it’s easier to store the rpc url.

Now when a user creates a wallet we simple need to do something like RpcConnection.Create(coinName) and then call invoke the instance member CreateAddress. There should be a background worker than scans users accounts for deposits and uses instance member Shift to move the funds to a central account (note: with Bittrex, the reason they use a memo field for NXT, BTS, etc. is because there is no internal shift or off-blockchain transaction like there is with the BTC daemon, so they make you deposit with a memo or message to avoid the transaction fee of shifting funds so it all ends up on one account).

Once funds are received, update the internal ledger (database) of how much funds they own within our system. Likewise, if they withdraw you deduct this amount from the internal ledger. Worthy of noting is handling balances with database locks to prevent concurrency exploitations.

Ok great, we can now accept funds (that obviously didn’t take too long…) the next step is being able to list ask/bid transactions. Pretty straight forward, an order looks something like this in the database:
   id : int
   buy : boolean    (if false then sell)
   quantity : decimal
   rate : decimal
   pair : string   (i.e. BTC-LTC)

if you wanted to be more “efficient” you could take the Cryptsy approach and use numeric representations for currencies, but since it’s likely there’s like less than 1000 pairs, this is a minor optimization for loss of easy readability.

Matching bid/ask pairs and then executing orders isn’t hard, I don’t think this is really worth going into depth about explaining… literally this could be assigned as a first year computer science project.

And then boom, at this point you have a very basic exchange. Time consumption really begins to be exhausted when you want to implement supplementary features (i.e. market tracking so that you can plot the time based data on a graph.. people today seem to sure love those candle sticks) for open/close plotting (ask/bids). Another more obvious supplementary feature would be a public api.

Difficulties with decentralization:

So going back to the principal of it all, an exchange has two aspects. Storing (and executing) the asks/bids, and storing the funds. Storing the funds is the biggest problem with decentralizing an exchange, whereas the ask/bid information is simply arbitrary data that exists on a blockchain.

The reason storing funds is so complex is because this needs to be done in a way that doesn’t involve using the alt coin daemons (it would be unreasonable to have a user running all the daemons the exchange supports) but still needs to be able to verify their balances (even if a user dumps their wallet clone on the block chain, they could still spend after an ask/bid was listed).

In Conclusion:

So it’s obvious that creating a centralized exchange can be done within this timeline but a decentralized exchange is a whole different story. To say the least, if initially we start with a centralized exchange, we then end up with a working model for a decentralized platform once we’ve developed a blockchain technology that tackles the problems listed below (i.e. once we’ve created the api for the decentralized ledger/exchange, it’s only a matter of plugging it into our exchange website in place of the centralized order books and balances).

Other challenges in creating a decentralized platform involves using a cross-platform language (i.e. Java, Python, Node.js) but I’d like to heavily place emphasis on any of these languages (as well as even C/C++) are fine to use and the decision is literally up to preference and what’s easier for the person creating the distributed platform.

Offline Akado

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Offline fuzzy

I still have a Hard time believing you could pull this in 3 weeks. Why do you think you can manage that in such a short amount of time while otther projects take much longer? That May help some People choose to support you if you give a reasonable answer.

If you can get investors outside of bitshares to get in and fund this, sure that 50/50 seems good, however i assume most People would come from wiithon our ecosystem, therefore i propose to split profits in the following way:

A % Will be used to pay back orogonal investors, this should be a reasonably high percentage, anytjing from 33 to 50%
A % Will be burn
A % Will be kept by you as a profit though this Will probably be a smaller % than you expect

Of course if you pull the next big altcoin exchange that competes with pólos volumes im sure People could reconsider percdntages and give you a bigger cut, bit achieving that isnt easy!

Other solution would be to this through a worker proposal.

I love the idea of having an rxchsnge.competing with polo and others running on top of bitshares, i would love to support something like that and having the platfofm built in a month would be awesome, really awesome, the rest would be a matter of marketing and pleasing users which im positive you could achieve, but building the platform in 3 weeks seems.too good to be True.. Maybe if you could explian us how you plan to do that could hrlp ease some minds.

I lile the idea itself and would support it, but im strugglong with the 3 weeks

Got many spelling erros but im on myphone, hope its understandable

This is a solid point. Looking forward to hearing freebieservers answers on this.
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Offline Akado

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I still have a Hard time believing you could pull this in 3 weeks. Why do you think you can manage that in such a short amount of time while otther projects take much longer? That May help some People choose to support you if you give a reasonable answer.

If you can get investors outside of bitshares to get in and fund this, sure that 50/50 seems good, however i assume most People would come from wiithon our ecosystem, therefore i propose to split profits in the following way:

A % Will be used to pay back orogonal investors, this should be a reasonably high percentage, anytjing from 33 to 50%
A % Will be burn
A % Will be kept by you as a profit though this Will probably be a smaller % than you expect

Of course if you pull the next big altcoin exchange that competes with pólos volumes im sure People could reconsider percdntages and give you a bigger cut, bit achieving that isnt easy!

Other solution would be to this through a worker proposal.

I love the idea of having an rxchsnge.competing with polo and others running on top of bitshares, i would love to support something like that and having the platfofm built in a month would be awesome, really awesome, the rest would be a matter of marketing and pleasing users which im positive you could achieve, but building the platform in 3 weeks seems.too good to be True.. Maybe if you could explian us how you plan to do that could hrlp ease some minds.

I lile the idea itself and would support it, but im strugglong with the 3 weeks

Got many spelling erros but im on myphone, hope its understandable
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Offline luckybit

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The issue is it has to be publicly verifiable that the burn will take place. This means it must be set not by you, but by some sort of smart contract or procedure. If the process can be verified and cannot be reversed, then I will support it. Make the pledge, enforce it with a smart contract.
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Offline luckybit

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Hey guys,

Lead biz dev of freebieservers.com here.
First off, really appreciate the feedback you gave on the ultra thread.
Knowing what people need, and don't require in a timely fashion helps us improvise ourselves as a company and create solutions that actually matter.
One of the problems people here have been mentioning is the short pace at which coins are burned.
I've been thinking a fair amount about the evolution of the ecosystem here at Bitshares and wondering what would be an alternative solution to go about doing this.

One of the most beautiful things to come out of the community here is the means to create a decentralized exchange with complete transparency.
While CCEDK has done a great job, we believe Bitshares is in a great place where it can use more exchanges and we believe we can create a unique user experience
Instead of linking to financial services and bringing in fiat, we intend to create a simple platform for the safe and transparent exchange of altcoins and UIA's .
The entire platform will be decentralized and tokens verified by the blockchain , leading to very few single points of failures.

Now, so far , the concept is basic.
What I intend to do different however is, pledge a certain part of the tx fees and revenue of this venture towards burning coins.
Assuming we get enough support to do this and go ahead and build it, we'll be willing to pledge 50 percent of all revenue into burning bts
In terms of ownership, our holding company will maintain and retain ownership but we would be happy to let go of a larger chunk in case people want to back us through PE deals.


Think about it : We could burn a couple bitcoin's worth Bitshares every day. With decreasing supply of Bitshares, the value of existing coins would increase, leading to a win solution for everyone.
Alternatively, we could simply choose to issue x amount of the profits as a dividend, but I simply believe we can do better service to the community by taking this route.

We are looking to raise a total of 75 Btc to make this happen and will take a 3 week time period to put the platform live.
Thoughts guys?

Do vote on the poll

As many people know, for long term holders burning is much better than dividends. As many people know, I'm very much in favor of burning and always have been since burning was first mentioned.

We should promote ideas which increase the burn rate as much as possible. The burn rate increasing is equal to saying that this financial enterprise and others who take similar pledges are going to pay back the dilution loan by burning the excess BTS which was created.

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jakub

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Instead of linking to financial services and bringing in fiat, we intend to create a simple platform for the safe and transparent exchange of altcoins and UIA's .
The entire platform will be decentralized and tokens verified by the blockchain , leading to very few single points of failures.

It  might be a stupid question, but I just want to make sure I understand it correctly: you intend to build your platform on top of BTS and when you mention the blockchain you mean the BTS blockchain, correct?

We are looking to raise a total of 75 Btc to make this happen and will take a 3 week time period to put the platform live.

You intend to issue UIA and raise 75 BTC, build your platform and then burn 50 percent of all revenues, right?
If I'm a BTS holder, what is my motivation to buy your UIA as I could just refrain and count on other BTS holders to enter your deal, but still benefit from the burning?
Am I missing something?