Author Topic: Millions of Features, Features for Me!  (Read 6836 times)

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Offline GaltReport

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2015, 02:23:28 am »
Nice.

but then again why is this voting... for only after "the stealth non-sense is implemented"?


0. Stealth
1. Bond Market (Poloniex Style Lending)
2. Prediction Market (Auger Style)
3. Ethereum (or something similar) VM integration
4. Liquidity Incentivisation
5. Gambling Systems


Just calling it "nonsense" doesn't make it so. Please present an argument.


Well it is as sensible as the rest of them.
Why is it more sensible (deserves special treatment, in your mind)?

It deserves special treatment because [member=49]onceuponatime[/member] has already been grandfathered in.  I don't want to take the deal he earned and auction off his profits.  Also, he was planing to pay in fiat which is much appreciated.  Furthermore, I think his plan is further developed than some of the others.   



Unfortunately this is my take on the whole issue as well....the main difference being someone paying in cash....seeing said cash clouds any other reasonable judgment.

The other unfortunate fact is even with his great generosity , love for the project and willingness to take a huge risk for BTS .... he is sadly lacking the ability [actually stubbornly refusing to do so] to properly judge what is best of his beloved (his and mine) project.

It is true that I lack many of the skills that you and others might have in this modern age and on this Forum. This is because I am probably much older than you and did my schooling before there were computers. There weren't even calculators when I went to school!

That doesn't mean that I lack common sense or discernment and discrimination. I'm sure that I have spent more time living on the streets than either you or even Martin 38PTSwarrior. I have traveled and lived in dozens of countries. I have degrees in Business Management and Economics and have worked (before the smell got too bad) as a special investigator for a Federal Government. I have slept under bridges and I have slept in palaces.

I think that I am as good a judge of character as anyone on this Forum. And I invest in people.

Perhaps your famous and cutting edge cynicism could be enhanced by a dash of Humility?

 +5%.  As I've told my son, it's nice to be smart...but character trumps intellect IMHO.

Offline Thom

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2015, 02:24:48 am »
In my humble opinion, BTS is so much more than Smart Coins at this point in time.   We shouldn't let that one feature shape our whole worldview.

Whether it's more liquid Smartcoins or an even more awesome, popular sellable product/UIA,  the ability to transfer them privately will surely increase potential demand for them and as a result increase the value of BTS shares.

However without sellable product, stealth transfers won't necessarily increase the value of BTS unless the belief is that BTS is currently undervalued because potential shareholders are reluctant to buy this amazingly undervalued company without privacy.

So I would think focusing on SmartCoin or  other 'better than Smartcoin' product would ideally precede Stealth, not critical though.

Although I am sympathetic to this position, I do believe that privacy is a fundamentally important feature. That implementing it should have already been well underway is irrelevant here.

The same argument could have been made for 100K TPS, and in fact CNX finally did realize a slower TPS, far less than 100K TPS, is perfectly acceptable and yet exceeds BitShares 1.0 performance by a large margin, thus a significant improvement.

The point is it was an investment in infrastructure anticipating future adoption of BitShares. Who would have signed up for 100K TPS back in the 1.0 era over wallet improvements and stability? I know I wouldn't have, yet BM saw the value in a new architecture that not only provides 100K+ TPS but so many more benefits as well.

It's not difficult to see how much of a barrier it is to those with lots of wealth to go public and place a significant portion of that wealth on the BitShares blockchain for all to see, scrutinize, target and try to get a chunk of. I know the concept of privacy it counter to the mainstream norm these days, even in this community, but it is a very important foundational principle to this ecosystem and to preserve and strengthen freedom.

I'll admit I don't know what the best approach is to prioritize improvements and implement new features to give BitShares the most optimal chance for growth and adoption. I can get so focused on a narrow view of things at times and in that tunnel vision choices seem easier. And of course trade-offs are always easier in retrospect. What's obvious to Stan & Dan may not be obvious to many of us. Historical judgements and choices made here fuel my skepticism and cloud my perspective of the future.

However, I gotta say the approach described by the OP is one I believe will help qualify what to focus on based on the hard empirical evidence of what people are willing to pay for. I like this very much. But I am still concerned we're trying to sprint to the finish line and overlooking other important, less exciting factors that directly impact adoption, especially by developers, such as quality, detailed documentation, tutorials and API "how to" examples. I did like what BM said here:

Quote
The assumption for all features is that a working reference GUI will be provided to make the features accessible.  Each feature will be fully documented with a detailed design complete with UI wireframes prior to Cryptonomex taking any money.  We want to ensure that the community knows what they are bidding on and to maximize the price we can get for each feature.   Bidding can start early (prior to detailed documentation), and users can cancel their bids if they change their minds prior to us locking them in.

The context sounds like he feels there's more of an incentive to be more thorough and rigorous regarding docs and UI / UX prototyping b/c it is tied to maximizing the profit from his work. It improves quality, and quality sells better. I think he is right on the money.
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2015, 03:17:46 am »
[member=5]bytemaster[/member] what you've done is recreated an innovation game called "Buy a Feature".

http://www.innovationgames.com/buy-a-feature/

http://www.uxforthemasses.com/buy-the-feature/
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2015, 03:25:17 am »
So if Mr. Duke has 100,000 BTS to wager and Mr. Valentine has 100 BTS to wager, it is the Mr. Dukes of the world who will control the agenda. This sounds like pay to play. Am I mistaken?

Definitely not "Pay to Play". It's actually an innovation game called "Buy a Feature".
Buy a Feature is classified as an innovation game. There is a lot of literature and examples which Bytemaster and others can learn from. We might be able to implement these innovation games into everything and not just FBA.

For example if people could use the market to signal demand for certain features, or like or dislike levels, it could improve the UX. It's basically a way to help developers to prioritize new ideas and develop only features which people really want.

Quote
THE GAME
Buy A FeatureCreate a list of potential features and provide each with a price. Just like for a real product, the price can be based on development costs, customer value, or something else. Although the price can be the actual cost you intend to charge for the feature, this is usually not required. Customers buy features that they want in the next release of your product using play money you give them. Make certain that some features are priced high enough that no one customer can buy them. Encourage customers to pool their money to buy especially important and/or expensive features. This will help motivate negotiations between customers as to which features are most important.

This game works best with four to seven customers in a group, so that you can create more opportunities for customers to pool their money through negotiating.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation_game
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2015, 03:28:58 am »
[member=5]bytemaster[/member] what you've done is recreated an innovation game called "Buy a Feature".

http://www.innovationgames.com/buy-a-feature/

http://www.uxforthemasses.com/buy-the-feature/

Wow! Did you run across that before or after this thread came up?

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2015, 03:44:50 am »
When the feature is delivered, the UIA will be converted into a FBA and the proceeds of the sale will become our private property.   

In addition to creating the UIA we will also create a corresponding worker proposal that is symbolic of shareholder support for enabling the feature.  The worker proposal must be funded before we will sell into the buy wall of the UIA.   

BitShares stakeholders will now have price information that indicates how the market values each potential feature.  This price information can in turn be used to inform them on which features they should vote for.   A highly valued feature means that the market believes that feature will generate significant ROI and therefore be profitable for BitShares holders. 


I have a few questions.

1. When you say the UIA will be converted to an FBA, is this part of how the FBA feature will work when implemented, or is this something you are doing manually somehow?

2. Will the corresponding Worker created with the UIA be something also done manually, or will this be a feature as well of the FBA implementation?

3. What happens when the auction indicates a feature doesn't have enough support to be developed. How are the funds that were collected handled then?

4. Are the fees generated from FBAs standalone, or is the 20% that goes to the network eligible for the refer program to also gain from the features? My concern is that larger and larger portions of the eco-system develop and what the refer program claims to offer starts to become less true as what refers can earn becomes marginalized against all the other areas of Bitshares where transactions are occurring.

This is all very similar to what I proposed as the working process for how FBAs should work with a few twists, which I like.

The one thing that will be necessary for this to work effectively I think will be presentation and information given on each feature so that investors can decide if they want to invest or not. In other words, whatever is presented really has to be sold, otherwise the a lack luster response may only be the results community investors not really getting the information in a way that sold them.

I do think it will give an overall better measure for the direction to take. Before each is proposed however, the fundamental groundwork of doing proper market research still as to take place. This is more like a final step to confirm whatever data summation was done.

I am very excited about this approach. This opens up a whole new arena of possibilities.
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Offline Thom

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2015, 06:20:41 am »
I do think it will give an overall better measure for the direction to take. Before each is proposed however, the fundamental groundwork of doing proper market research still as to take place. This is more like a final step to confirm whatever data summation was done.

Good questions!

Although not comprehensive, the presale of the UIA is itself market research. It may or may not be useful, depending on the target audience the feature is aiming at. If a representative portion of the target audience of the feature is part of this community it is useful as market research.

However if not, it must be publicized and brought to the attention of whoever outside of this community, wherever that audience may be. And in that case I wonder if explaining the feature will represent much value, since the audience would also need to be sold on the ecosystem in with this feature is only one part. In that case the sales pitch may be quite difficult.
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2015, 01:04:48 pm »
In my humble opinion, BTS is so much more than Smart Coins at this point in time.   We shouldn't let that one feature shape our whole worldview.

Even the creator of the bitAssets himself will be surprised what they can accomplish if the square wheels are progressively removed from them [aka as early as next Wedneday you might see surprising changes in their behaviour]
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline luckybit

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2015, 01:12:14 pm »
[member=5]bytemaster[/member] what you've done is recreated an innovation game called "Buy a Feature".

http://www.innovationgames.com/buy-a-feature/

http://www.uxforthemasses.com/buy-the-feature/

Wow! Did you run across that before or after this thread came up?

I've been talking about gamification and innovation games since many months ago. I've got a lot of posts and sent many PMs.
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Offline cass

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2015, 01:51:01 pm »
[i would over my help on UI/UX sketching ... if needed ..]
(but not free of charge)
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2015, 02:32:03 pm »
I do think it will give an overall better measure for the direction to take. Before each is proposed however, the fundamental groundwork of doing proper market research still as to take place. This is more like a final step to confirm whatever data summation was done.

Good questions!

Although not comprehensive, the presale of the UIA is itself market research. It may or may not be useful, depending on the target audience the feature is aiming at. If a representative portion of the target audience of the feature is part of this community it is useful as market research.

However if not, it must be publicized and brought to the attention of whoever outside of this community, wherever that audience may be. And in that case I wonder if explaining the feature will represent much value, since the audience would also need to be sold on the ecosystem in with this feature is only one part. In that case the sales pitch may be quite difficult.


The point I was making in my posting though was that unless it is properly researched prior to the UIA sale, the messaging and the features and how they are set out could miss the mark, and thus not be successful in the sale. If the research was done right from the beginning, then it will hit on all the right pains and gains with the feature sets put forth in the a more correct priority, then the UIA will be successful.

The point is the UIA success or failure will be a result of the market research done prior to the offering. The UIA in itself is only a confirmation of that research hitting the right mark if it's sale is wildly successful. On the other hand, it's failure could also be due to the lack of proper research and planning to build what will address the markets wants and needs. This is really good news for those putting their money into this.. because if it does sell well, then its a good signal that it will do well. If not so well, means back to the drawing board, and no money lost. Which still brings me to my previous question about if a UIA sale is a failure in the sense of it didn't sell well enough.. what happens then?
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Offline puppies

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2015, 02:46:07 pm »
The UIA is not sold until there is enough demand.  You can always cancel your bids up until that time. 
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Offline Thom

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2015, 03:08:38 pm »
The UIA is not sold until there is enough demand.  You can always cancel your bids up until that time.

BM mentioned this "bidding" process in the STEALTH feature thread with a link into the OL wallet. I'm reading this on a system that doesn't have an OL wallet, would someone explain exactly what this bidding process is and how it's done?

A UIA is just an asset, you buy it or you don't. The bidding is something else which I am not familiar with in this context.

Thanks.
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Offline theredpill

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2015, 03:26:26 pm »
[member=5]bytemaster[/member], on priority order:

1 - Set the borrow fee and the vesting fee to 1 BTS

2 - Set maker fee 1 BTS and taker to 0.4% non lifetime 0.1 lifetime

3 - Implement a reward to the first order on the book with real money, not this MAKER UIA. this UIA only appeals to BTS people, those who believe that this exchange gonna succeed and collect a lot of fees (few people that probably already invested their money on us), those who don't do not gonna put their real money to provide liquidity on exchange to this UIA.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 03:30:21 pm by theredpill »

Offline Bhuz

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Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2015, 03:31:31 pm »
A UIA is just an asset, you buy it or you don't. The bidding is something else which I am not familiar with in this context.

Thanks.

Bidding is just put a buy order (also called bid order)