BitShares Dice FBA

[puppies]

Play uses the delegates to create a random number.  Each delegate publishes the hash of a secret and the previous secret on every block.  These are then hashed together to generate a random seed.  This revealed secret was removed from 2.0.  We could rely on some number published by witnesses, but it would be more prone to manipulation.  A centralized service could use a single shared secret as the random seed and then publish that secret when there's a drawing. 

I actually had what I considered a provably fair roulette game running back on 1.0.  It got exactly zero usage.  Running it on 2.0 would be more expensive due to the increased transaction fees.

[Xypher]

IMO, its best to start centralized, see the viability and market interest, then go for decentralized.
So many crypto-projects scream decentralized from day one, spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in product development and turn up with a product that ends up either being shit or used by nobody.
The lean model guys. Cut the fat!

[Empirical1.2]

Gambling systems could be huge. 

What are our options for provably fair on blockchain rng?

Breaking bets up into rounds and having each bettor submit the hash of a secret, and then once that betting round is done having all parties revel secret could work, but it's clunky. 

What other sources of rng can we think of?

I don't know what method you'd use for a game with multiple players & betting rounds like poker which I imagine would be super complex to develop.

But my understanding was that PLAY had come up with an rng solution that could be applied to BTS too for games like Dice. (Which I imagine is much simpler to develop than poker on blockchain)

PLAY adopts a distributed algorithm for random number generation , leveraging delegates in the
DPOS structure to provide the randomness. PLAY delegates generate private key data and publish
the hash of the key data when a block is published.
In the end the random number employed is generated by a successive multiple (at least 101 or
more) number of key data, so that as long as one delegate is honest and hasn’t leaked his data,。
we can safely assume that no one could know the random number generated in the end, making
the number fair and reliable.

https://www.dacplay.org/pdf/BitSharesPLAYNoneTechnical_EN.pdf

[puppies]

Gambling systems could be huge. 

What are our options for provably fair on blockchain rng?

Breaking bets up into rounds and having each bettor submit the hash of a secret, and then once that betting round is done having all parties revel secret could work, but it's clunky. 

What other sources of rng can we think of?

[Empirical1.2]

A centralised bitshares dice is trivial to create; you could probably knock a daemon together in a week or so.

Truely decentralised requires a different blockchain and that's what Play is doing I think.

Yeah and decentralized is where the USP of BTSDice would be.

As well as perhaps USD Smartcoin vs. extremely volatile potentially soon to be worthless DAC share of PLAY/other new blockchain.   
(Which discourages leaving funds/balances, possibly even more so than the risk of theft/seizure etc.)

Given that BM listed 'gambling systems' as potential BTS features in his recent post, I think there's a chance BTS may be able to add it.

[monsterer]

A centralised bitshares dice is trivial to create; you could probably knock a daemon together in a week or so.

Truely decentralised requires a different blockchain and that's what Play is doing I think.

[Empirical1.2]

^ Very good    I assume electrons.io is a centralized service and not based on the blockchain?

The key USP of blockchain based dice would be no risk of hit and runs, seizures or closures, so you could invest/gamble with confidence as well as perhaps being provably fair at the blockchain level.

As BM mentioned gambling systems, I'd be interested if CNX could offer something and what cost or reduced cost for % of fees.

A dice game on the decentralized blockchain accessible via here https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/explorer would be great.

The TX fee for Dice bets could be made very small and go to BTS with the house edge going to FBA holders. 

I'm not sure but I think the flaw I see with JustDice business model is that anyone could invest in the bankroll & while investors would get a % of profits, they didn't benefit from the growth of the bank roll/revenue.

It would seem like a superior model would be to offer shares in the business which is used to fund development and the initial bankroll.
Profits can be dispersed between BTS, Investors and growing the bankroll up to X size. That way the value of the shares you purchased would increase over time too.

This is one of the projects that can truly show the power of Bitshares and increase the market cap, but am not sure if we'll be able to attract sufficient users overnight. Bitcoin has a much larger user base in comparison with Bitshares so its a quick to access market.

  Even when Bitcoin had a $70 million CAP not too different to what BTSX had Satoshi Dice had a few hundred thousand dollars profit but yes by targetting Bitcoiners with the advantages of decentralization, (No more hit and runs, seizures or closures) we could rapidly expand the potential market.

Looking at the 2012 Bitcoin gambling report is probably our best 'bet'

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/22/bitcoin-casinos-release-2012-earnings/

(Bitcoin had a low user base & CAP through 2012 of about $70 million, so not too dissimilar.)

Satoshi dice had nearly 1.8 million BTC worth of volume and BitZino 700 000 BTC, so probably about $30 million dollars turnover. 2.5 million of the 9 million BTC would be about 700 million BTS worth of BitAsset volume & I think there were about 6 million betting transactions. Imagine just a fraction of that.
 
The most important thing is that a really low house edge, provably fair, funds accounted for on the blockchain option could not only satisfy gambling demand & bootstrap BitAsset use internally, but displace Bitcoin options which have recently been hit by a string of 'ponzi' take the money and runs...

Gambling is what made up half of Bitcoins volume and helped Bootstrap it and it still makes up the major chunk today. So nevermind BTS, it's possible that whoever takes the gambling even takes Bitcoin.

Edit: Smartcoin/BitUSD dice would also be a good USP. A smaller blockchain that attempted Dice without stable BitAssets would be very volatile, so you wouldn't feel comfortable leaving your winnings/balance on there for an extended period.

[Xypher]

If there is a Bitshares Dice system, we'd be keen on developing it.
Will talk with Kuro and hybrid about the possibilities of hacking together a basic system.

Disclosure : We have been in the works for a betting system focused on gamers for months now and are at the verge of launching it.

Regards

  Cool

Doing this on Bitshares is advantageous because of

1. Lower confirmation times
2. Transparency.

This is one of the projects that can truly show the power of Bitshares and increase the market cap, but am not sure if we'll be able to attract sufficient users overnight. Bitcoin has a much larger user base in comparison with Bitshares so its a quick to access market.

The way I see it,

1. A user sends Bitcoin to our electron-io system (new ui and cross exchange coming soon)
2. Gets bitshares in the betting system
3. Places bets
4. Either takes winning or losses in Bitshares or can get it exchanged instantaneously from electrons.io

Beautiful user case that brings both users and profitability.

Regards

[Empirical1.2]

If there is a Bitshares Dice system, we'd be keen on developing it.
Will talk with Kuro and hybrid about the possibilities of hacking together a basic system.

Disclosure : We have been in the works for a betting system focused on gamers for months now and are at the verge of launching it.

Regards

  Cool

[Xypher]

If there is a Bitshares Dice system, we'd be keen on developing it.
Will talk with Kuro and hybrid about the possibilities of hacking together a basic system.

Disclosure : We have been in the works for a betting system focused on gamers for months now and are at the verge of launching it.

Regards

[Empirical1.2]

Millions of Features, Features for Me!

There are far too many opportunities out there and prioritizing new features for BitShares becomes very challenging. 
Profit is perhaps the most important means of prioritizing.

So I would like to take some time to outline a plan I am devising for getting features lined up and prioritized based upon the concept of Fee Backed Assets (FBA). 

5. Gambling Systems

In terms of profit potential blockchain based dice would the most investable FBA imo.

After you deposit bitcoins into Just Dice you have the option to invest all or part of your balance in the house bank. Just Dice takes 10% of the profit and distributes 90% to the investors in real time, every players losing bet makes your investment go up instantly!

Every players winning bet makes your investment go down but the odds are always in your favour and no one could ever send the house broke because the maximum profit per bet is 0.05% of the house bank.

Never has a feature that allows anybody in the world to put themselves at an advantageous position in a gambling operation been offered. That is normally reserved for those rich and politically connected enough to own a gambling operation or for the investor class with barriers to entry that preclude most of the world’s population.

On average your investment will increase 0.9% as often as the house bank is turned over. For example at the moment the house bank is ฿42,500 so every time that amount is wagered by users the site should make on average 1% profit with 0.9% of that going to investors. The house bank turns over approximately every 14 days on average! I first invested in Just Dice 3 months ago and the investment I made has risen 22.5% since then. So far the site has paid out ฿18,000 to investors.

The only risks are government seizure and shut down and hackers or the site operators disappearing with the money. This is sincerely the best passive investment I have ever found.

http://www.bitroll.co/just-dice-a-gambling-investment-revolution/

Unfortunately centralized sites are more prone to closures or hit and runs...

http://www.bitroll.co/just-dice-closes-due-to-canadian-bitcoin-regulations/

JustDice's bankroll was >  ฿50,000 (Double the CAP of BTS) & from the above, appeared to be making >$300 000 profit a month.