Author Topic: Regarding MAS and my Vision  (Read 3228 times)

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Offline bytemaster

Regarding MAS and my Vision
« on: January 02, 2016, 12:32:29 am »
Obviously I haven't fully communicated everything there is to know about MAS and why I am excited about it. 

It all boils down to the fact that I need to create a business that I can enter and generate recurring and non-linear income.  Doing worker proposals for BitShares or even work-for-hire is not a business, it is a job.  Selling time for money is not a winning strategy. Even if BitShares stakeholders were able to fund 100% of my time, it wouldn't make sense for me to take that job unless it was part of a larger income generating strategy.  Most people want a job, I want to create a business that generates non-linear income opportunities where there is no upper limit on what I can earn per hour.

In some sense I have a large stake in BTS and anything that grows the value of BTS produces non-linear income for me.  But considering my personal stake in BTS is well under 5% it means my own efforts are diluted by 95%. This a long standing economic issue, a problem known as the group trap: http://www.ultimatefreedomquest.com/group-trap/

Within the realm of a DEX there are several business opportunities I could pursue:

1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others.
2. Create, Market, and Promote Prediction Markets.  Under this model I would be operating something that could be perceived as gambling. This is a business area that is not safe to enter in the US. 
3. Attempt to become a market maker.  This is not my area of expertise and requires significant capital and liquid markets.
4. Build another business on top of the BitShares network.

I have looked at my own options and concluded that building another business on top of the BitShares network is the most profitable avenue for me.  It may (or may not) be the most profitable for BitShares in the short term.

I also know that I didn't create BitShares so I could work a job I wasn't passionate about.  I created BitShares because I saw that price-stable cryptocurrency was the foundation of something bigger.  The MAS idea is something I came up with long before BitShares and was originally introduced... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=201297.0   I didn't know it was called a MAS at the time, but I do now.

More information will be coming.   Those who want to see the DEX grow can see it grow by funding work to make it grow and starting businesses that would be profitable because of the DEX.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline clayop

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2016, 12:43:54 am »
I like the subject, "my" vision, instead of BitShares vision.

IMHO, DEX is almost done except two things. 1) Better API for third party developers/market makers. 2) Percentage based fee for greater network/referrer's profit

Can you wrap up these two things before diving into MAS vision?
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Offline JonnyB

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2016, 12:50:36 am »
"1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others."

I think you should run your own DEX that competes with openledger. You are in a prime position to do so and everyone would trust you and use it.
then you could sell shares in it once its built and well established in a year or so.
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Offline rajarush

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2016, 01:14:12 am »
Those investors who gave you millions of dollars are dilution for you? How much money you spend in 2014 and 2015? Where is the money from? Now you don't want to work for the "dilutions" and want to make more money.... YES we are the 95% dilution. Leave a half-cooked product and make more money, GO!

Offline rajarush

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2016, 01:15:26 am »
The so called community is just a group trap for BM, I like the vision. And honestly it is very important for us to know.

Offline BitShares News

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2016, 01:28:24 am »
IMHO, DEX is almost done except two things. 1) Better API for third party developers/market makers.

Can you wrap up these two things before diving into MAS vision?

"I’d like to let everyone know about some of the other things that we are doing. A new guy Michael has been working with us the past two weeks and he’s already implemented significant improvements to the API to be very similar to Poloniex’s API for getting the order book as well as placing and submitting orders. We hope to roll out those API changes probably after Christmas, he’s gone on Christmas break right now. Early January the new API’s should be available."

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Offline Stan

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2016, 01:31:41 am »
Those investors who gave you millions of dollars are dilution for you? How much money you spend in 2014 and 2015? Where is the money from? Now you don't want to work for the "dilutions" and want to make more money.... YES we are the 95% dilution. Leave a half-cooked product and make more money, GO!

Again, we are talking about personal investments in ways to make money to continue to advance the cause.

2014 efforts were paid for by donations and delivered the best product possible with those funds.

2013 and 2015 were paid for by Cryptonomex stakeholders and delivered a far better self-sustaining real-time decentralized platform for 2014 donors.  That platform has everything it needs to continue to grow and evolve - except more products and services to attract users and generate market depth.

In 2016, Cryptonomex plans to drive more business to BitShares while meeting its need to earn a rate of return for its stakeholders who gave you BitShares 2.0.  That business will in turn generate the funds BitShares needs to continue to add polish and features.  Without those stakeholders, there would be no BTS 2.0 and we naturally need to be just as faithful to their investment as we are to BitShares.

It's how we plan to kill two birds with one stone - i.e. our remaining personal resources.

You are arguing simply for using our one stone on just one bird.  You seem to think it is ok to ignore the contributions and interests of 2013 and 2015 stakeholders.   We have to consider how to do our best for all of them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 01:51:36 am by Stan »
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Offline wuyanren

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2016, 01:44:38 am »
I think it's time to think about how to attract more new users, and a more convenient wallet.

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2016, 01:57:24 am »
I fully understand your position, BM.

I have just one favor to ask you (and I consider it a favor, not an obligation): please actively help us to open up BitShares for third-party development so that we can have a smooth transition from the current state (where CNX is the only player capable of protocol modifications) to the desired state (where there are multiple companies with those skills).

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2016, 02:10:10 am »
Those investors who gave you millions of dollars are dilution for you? How much money you spend in 2014 and 2015? Where is the money from? Now you don't want to work for the "dilutions" and want to make more money.... YES we are the 95% dilution. Leave a half-cooked product and make more money, GO!

Those "millions of dollars" are already spent. You can argue if they were spent wisely and effectively (I believe they were) but those funds are already gone and it's a known fact for almost a year now.
If you want BM to fund further development of DEX with his own private money - well, you might keep wanting it but it's not going to happen.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2016, 02:12:28 am »
Not necessarily for your vision but for your goal of generating recurring and non-linear income, the question may be 'What is fairly quick/simple to code that will generate ongoing income for very little management, maintenance and promotion?'

Out of the options listed there Market Maker seems the most lucrative & least time consuming for you personally to get out the way because it can be outsourced.

Uphold/BitReserve, NuShares/Tether & numerous others are all building their businesses around BitAssets, unlike Bitcoin there is no large established market leader, yet...

All these businesses are doing nothing else besides trying to establish, often at times a single BitUSD.

BTS is in a great position here, it has already developed the best blockchain and a good BitUSD and has access to dilution to incentivise liquidity providers.

It also doesn't require large amounts of capital, only enough dilution to provide an incentivising yield for others to provide capital.  It seems liquidity operations on external exchanges can be outsourced to NuShares liquidity pools or others like Alt.

It seems like very little work and a worker contract paying a few thousand dollars a month could bootstrap BitUSD/Gold liquidity on external exchanges to see if increased liquidity increases BTS value and Smartcoin adoption.

I'm sure it can be done independently but once that most likely to complete BitAssets action & increase BTS value is out the way it requires very little more of your time.

Gambling might not be do-able for the reasons you mentioned but if a third party added a game of chance FBA to BTS that would be an immediate earner that would bring in income everyday for very little upkeep.

Starting a new business like MAS, as you've experienced with BTS, is a hard process that always takes longer and costs more than you think and has a high probability of not finding a market easily. It also requires expertise & or collaboration in other areas like management and promotion which are time consuming & perhaps not your strong suits.

Stealth also fits the profile as there's money on the table and perhaps opportunity to earn recurring income.

The BitUSD savings club may be relatively simple to code, but requires very little maintenance/management. So if 0.X% went to the creator and new club started every month and could be applied to multiple BitAssets then that would provide a constant income stream from day 1. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20648.msg266463.html#msg266463

« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 02:21:29 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2016, 03:01:42 am »
I like the subject, "my" vision, instead of BitShares vision.

IMHO, DEX is almost done except two things. 1) Better API for third party developers/market makers. 2) Percentage based fee for greater network/referrer's profit

Can you wrap up these two things before diving into MAS vision?

I endorse this post and also would like to know your responses.

Offline Samupaha

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2016, 07:34:20 am »
Within the realm of a DEX there are several business opportunities I could pursue:

1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others.
2. Create, Market, and Promote Prediction Markets.  Under this model I would be operating something that could be perceived as gambling. This is a business area that is not safe to enter in the US. 
3. Attempt to become a market maker.  This is not my area of expertise and requires significant capital and liquid markets.
4. Build another business on top of the BitShares network.

What about creating new features with FBA and demanding a fair share of the FBAs as a salary? If the feature is successful, you'll get automatic income. You don't have to build the features all by yourself, but only to help others to build their businesses.

Offline abit

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2016, 07:40:10 am »
"1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others."

I think you should run your own DEX that competes with openledger. You are in a prime position to do so and everyone would trust you and use it.
then you could sell shares in it once its built and well established in a year or so.
CNX probably have some shares of openledger or similar so it's not so good for them to compete.
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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2016, 07:43:57 am »
Within the realm of a DEX there are several business opportunities I could pursue:

1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others.
2. Create, Market, and Promote Prediction Markets.  Under this model I would be operating something that could be perceived as gambling. This is a business area that is not safe to enter in the US. 
3. Attempt to become a market maker.  This is not my area of expertise and requires significant capital and liquid markets.
4. Build another business on top of the BitShares network.

What about creating new features with FBA and demanding a fair share of the FBAs as a salary? If the feature is successful, you'll get automatic income. You don't have to build the features all by yourself, but only to help others to build their businesses.
MAKER is such an effort, but it seems no much fund has interest in it. See https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/MAKER_BTS
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2016, 10:25:06 am »
you have the right to select your way to make profit.
but please push/speed up the decentralizaiton  process of Bitshares.
now we have voting, it's more decentralized than 1.0 stage.
but it is still too centralized, one reason is the voting rule, as each account can vote as many committee members as he/she like. so if one person hold 5% of BTS, he can actually control the committee.
maybe we can restrict that one account can only vote at most 3 committee members, then it will do good to decentralization and prevent dictatorship.

Offline Musewhale

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2016, 11:29:27 am »
Originally in your ideal, want to save the financial slaves, is your own  :P :P :P
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Offline woolcii

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2016, 11:30:43 am »
cool

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2016, 11:49:02 am »
you have the right to select your way to make profit.
but please push/speed up the decentralizaiton  process of Bitshares.
now we have voting, it's more decentralized than 1.0 stage.
but it is still too centralized, one reason is the voting rule, as each account can vote as many committee members as he/she like. so if one person hold 5% of BTS, he can actually control the committee.
maybe we can restrict that one account can only vote at most 3 committee members, then it will do good to decentralization and prevent dictatorship.
Good idea. Rather than asking BM to do this, how about submit a proposal (perhaps a BSIP or "voting" worker proposal)? I think it's not hard to implement the limit but may need some efforts to maintain backward-compatibility.
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Offline Samupaha

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2016, 02:29:05 pm »
Within the realm of a DEX there are several business opportunities I could pursue:

1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others.
2. Create, Market, and Promote Prediction Markets.  Under this model I would be operating something that could be perceived as gambling. This is a business area that is not safe to enter in the US. 
3. Attempt to become a market maker.  This is not my area of expertise and requires significant capital and liquid markets.
4. Build another business on top of the BitShares network.

What about creating new features with FBA and demanding a fair share of the FBAs as a salary? If the feature is successful, you'll get automatic income. You don't have to build the features all by yourself, but only to help others to build their businesses.
MAKER is such an effort, but it seems no much fund has interest in it. See https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/MAKER_BTS

MAKER is still completely Cryptonomex project. I meant more like a consulting job, where the salary is not cash (at least only), but FBAs. So basically Bytemaster will get royalties every time people use those features that he has consulted. If Bitshares will be successful, some of those features will be also very successful and bring lots of money for FBA owners.

The biggest reason MAKER hasn't got any interest is that it isn't marketed yet in any way. Most of the forum users don't know how much worth it is, and pretty much every outsider doesn't even know that it exists.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2016, 02:39:06 pm »
you have the right to select your way to make profit.
but please push/speed up the decentralizaiton  process of Bitshares.
now we have voting, it's more decentralized than 1.0 stage.
but it is still too centralized, one reason is the voting rule, as each account can vote as many committee members as he/she like. so if one person hold 5% of BTS, he can actually control the committee.
maybe we can restrict that one account can only vote at most 3 committee members, then it will do good to decentralization and prevent dictatorship.
Good idea. Rather than asking BM to do this, how about submit a proposal (perhaps a BSIP or "voting" worker proposal)? I think it's not hard to implement the limit but may need some efforts to maintain backward-compatibility.

seems some more discussion are needed before creating a BSIP-issue, let me post in a new thread.

Offline JonnyB

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2016, 02:40:21 pm »
"1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others."

I think you should run your own DEX that competes with openledger. You are in a prime position to do so and everyone would trust you and use it.
then you could sell shares in it once its built and well established in a year or so.
CNX probably have some shares of openledger or similar so it's not so good for them to compete.

[member=5]bytemaster[/member]  can you confirm this, do you or CNX have any shares in openledger?
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Offline Stan

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2016, 02:45:16 pm »
Within the realm of a DEX there are several business opportunities I could pursue:

1. Become a licensed money transmitter and host our own wallet.  Under this model I would be competing with OpenLedger and others.
2. Create, Market, and Promote Prediction Markets.  Under this model I would be operating something that could be perceived as gambling. This is a business area that is not safe to enter in the US. 
3. Attempt to become a market maker.  This is not my area of expertise and requires significant capital and liquid markets.
4. Build another business on top of the BitShares network.

What about creating new features with FBA and demanding a fair share of the FBAs as a salary? If the feature is successful, you'll get automatic income. You don't have to build the features all by yourself, but only to help others to build their businesses.

Yes, FBA's are one of the best ways to "Build another business on top of the BitShares network" and, in fact, are central to our business model for Cryptonomex. 

Doing that also drives more traffic to BitShares in the form of usage fees, new member referrals, the need to come to the DEX to trade the underlying FBA's and acquire BTS "fuel", and generally surging network effect.

Most importantly, it breaks out of the overcrowded cryptocurrency tribes and targets completely new markets that have never even heard of bitcoin.  This is the key to conquering cryptospace - grow with support from outside cryptospace.

 



« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 02:58:56 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2016, 03:32:53 pm »
The so called community is just a group trap for BM, I like the vision. And honestly it is very important for us to know.

I am no different than anyone else in the community. It isn't like the combined effort of the other 95% of stakeholders is doing significantly more for BitShares than what I have personally funded over the past year.  This is not to downplay the efforts of other community members which have also made huge contributions that are even more disproportionate than mine relative to their stake.

The group trap is nothing but a prisoners dilemma where individuals profit more by defecting than by contributing. If everyone defected then everyone would lose, but if no one defected then everyone would profit more. Fortunately, we have many people in the community, myself included, that do contribute to the greater cause despite the group trap.

All I am doing is calling attention to the obvious fact that incentives are not currently aligned. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 03:39:26 pm by bytemaster »
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2016, 03:50:03 pm »
I am no different than anyone else in the community. It isn't like the combined
effort of the other 95% of stakeholders is doing significantly more for
BitShares than what I have personally funded over the past year.  This is not to
downplay the efforts of other community members which have also made huge
contributions that are even more disproportionate than mine relative to their
stake.

The group trap is nothing but a prisoners dilemma where individuals profit more
by defecting than by contributing. If everyone defected then everyone would
lose, but if no one defected then everyone would profit more. Fortunately, we
have many people in the community, myself included, that do contribute to the
greater cause despite the group trap.

All I am doing is calling attention to the obvious fact that incentives are not
currently aligned. 
This reminds me of a long lasting discussion of how to fund open source
development.

You guys know Angry birds, I guess. Did you also know that they used an open
source library for their spectacular physics engine and didn't 'invent' it on
their won? Would you belive that they paid ZERO to the developer of that
library?
Now guess what: The developer doesn't even complain because that is the WHOLE
IDEA of open source software.

It feels the same in Bitcoin and BitShares. Some invest time and money out of
curiosity and make the other's shares be worth more eventually. But in the end,
those that DO invest their time to LEAR and CONTRIBUTE get something worth more
and that is KNOWLEDGE and REPUTATION.

[member=5]bytemaster[/member]: do you think we can use the MAS concept to help the open source
community out of their usual funding issue? Lot's of small and great projects
have no means to fund their their work (even if it only was a THANKS token)
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Offline MarkoPaasila

Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2016, 04:18:49 pm »
Sorry about the sidestep, but in reply to this:

[member=5]bytemaster[/member]: do you think we can use the MAS concept to help the open source
community out of their usual funding issue? Lot's of small and great projects
have no means to fund their their work (even if it only was a THANKS token)

I started to learn coding so that I could do something about an idea I have for funding open source projects. It would use bitshares. It's here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,11540.msg152143.html#msg152143


Offline merivercap

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Re: Regarding MAS and my Vision
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2016, 01:26:45 am »
Your decision making process all makes sense [member=5]bytemaster[/member] ..

Glad to hear you're working on something on the Bitshares platform rather than outside although Plasma does sound like a great complementary project.
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