why bts lack users？？？？？？？？

[xiahui135]

There is no new feature for NEM or ETH, but the price have bening growing 3 times.
We need some time and hard work to prove the system and the community is reliable. That is the reason.

[bizzyb]

Yep, all goes to confirm outsiders of BTS have no clue what any of you are talking about

Keep BTS as beautifully complicated and totally incomprehensible as you want under the surface.

On the surface - Play the cute dumb blonde that is easy to understand & get on with.
Attractive.
Approachable.
Friendly.
Easy

For crypto to have a future we have to be inclusive.

We are getting people into crypto "without them knowing"
www.CoinPon.com (official launch soon)
The worlds first crypto backed till receipt discount coupon - all the end user needs to know is they get a discount when using our CoinPons at nearly 100 stores, they don't need to know their payment helps support MUE and increase it's price.

[morpheus]

They don't have to string together a series a trades.  If I borrow 1btc from the network at 2x collateral, and then sell that btc into the market I should recover at least half of my collateral.  Although it took an initial outlay of twice the bts, I only have 1 btc worth of bts tied up as collateral.  Until my sell goes through I am not short and no funds are risked.  I can close my borrow position at any time.

I get what you are saying but you still need 2x collateral to enter such a position and your max gain is capped at less than 100% while your max loss is still 100%.  Also, to get a 90% gain on the position, you need a 1000% rise in the btc/bts pair.  It just doesn't make sense from a risk/reward perspective.  A lending market will fix this. 

[puppies]

They don't have to string together a series a trades.  If I borrow 1btc from the network at 2x collateral, and then sell that btc into the market I should recover at least half of my collateral.  Although it took an initial outlay of twice the bts, I only have 1 btc worth of bts tied up as collateral.  Until my sell goes through I am not short and no funds are risked.  I can close my borrow position at any time. 

[morpheus]

Short .5 bts then sell that, then use those funds to short .3 bts then sell them then use those funds to short the last .2.  Btc price is so high this would net more than 1 btc short.

When you create an asset you not only get the short position you also get the asset.

@tonyk

Ok, I knew there was a technicality in there somewhere, but nobody is realistically going to string together a series of trades just to eventually get to a 1:1 ratio, getting eaten up with fees on the way there.  This won't fly with the end user. 

From a single trade perspective (the end user perspective), you are still here:

[tonyk]

I don't bet unless the odds are in my favor and you sound pretty confident so Im sure I could lose this one.  Maybe you know some backdoor hack to do that, in which case it would be an attack that would render the whole thing useless until fixed.

I am coming at this from an end user perspective, which is the most important perspective.  Explain to me this: 

I get the following message when trying to create 1 bitcoin at a 1:1 collateral ratio (128,972 bts to 1 btc):  Collateral ratio is too low, position will be margin called instantly.

...

It is not a hack.... it is how the system is supposed to/ is working.

1.You just short what you can short aka about 1/1.925 BTC worth of bitBTC per 1 BTC worth of collateral (prices as per feed).
2. you sell those bitBTC and increase you collateral with the BTS received from those sells.
3. Go back to step 1.

You end up with about 1 bitBTC shorted  for each 1 btc worth of bts you have started the process.(minus fees)
[NB I find my own explanations, very easy to grasp... unfortunately on more occasions than not, the people on the receiving end of those kind of do not agree... if this is the case read puppies eli5 above (same thing different words)]

And not to derail this thread I believe that there are no people willing to short bitWhatever (aka go longer BTS) because no one is ready to put his money on the line believes bts is going anywhere higher. Because of this  we have enormous spreads on almost all bitAssets.  Because of this there are no customers interested in this product. Cause our 'smart coins are...well 5 to 20% above the 1:1 ratio to the underlying.

And for all of this the fault goes to the leader.... who while seemingly able to do whatever he choses with BTS, he not only totally controls the project's direction but finds the greatest pleasure in starting to go after the great new pipe dream of his, whenever his previous dream is somewhere about 50 to 75% finished.

[edit]Better put thoughts of mine on the same issues here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21111.msg273775.html#msg273775

[puppies]

Short .5 bts then sell that, then use those funds to short .3 bts then sell them then use those funds to short the last .2.  Btc price is so high this would net more than 1 btc short.

When you create an asset you not only get the short position you also get the asset.

[morpheus]

Example:
with 1 BTC worth of BTS you can short 1 BTC. Any x% increase in the BTS price (in respect to BTC) results in profit from that short position. The amount of BTS profited is exactly x/100 in  BTC terms.

So with 100 K BTS  and BTS price at 100,000 BTS/BTC and we short 1 BTC.(we get 100K bts from this sell.)

Your initial outlay will be 200k bts at 2x collateral, all of which is at risk... so if price goes to 200,000 BTS/BTC, you loose 100% of all 200,000 bts

Nope! Exactly 100K BTS.

Do you wanna bet?




1.You deposit exactly 1BTC worth of BTS into an account. (127,353 BTS as of this writing)

2. You give me access to this account (by changing the permissions in the GUI to threshold of 1 and my account weight set to 1)

3. I will short you 1 bitBTC without sending any more money to that account.

4. When you have 1 bitBTC short in that account, everything that is not in collateral is what I get for winning the bet. ( Idk, maybe even I can leave you 50% of all proceeds of bitBTC sold above feed price    )


Deal?

PS
You might also post the account here so the curious can enjoy.

PSS
I cut your post to the point where you got it wrong, so the rest of it is based on erroneous facts.

I don't bet unless the odds are in my favor and you sound pretty confident so Im sure I could lose this one.  Maybe you know some backdoor hack to do that, in which case it would be an attack that would render the whole thing useless until fixed.

I am coming at this from an end user perspective, which is the most important perspective.  Explain to me this: 

I get the following message when trying to create 1 bitcoin at a 1:1 collateral ratio (128,972 bts to 1 btc):  Collateral ratio is too low, position will be margin called instantly.



I get the same message up until a collateral ratio of 1:1.9



I need a collateral ratio of at least 1.95 to create the position, which equates to 251,183 bts put at risk.



How is it possible to override that error message with a collateral ratio of 1:1?



P.S.  yes we are derailing this thread

[mike623317]

why？？？？？？

Because it's really confusing.

As an outsider looking in I have no idea what's going on.
Yes, the technology is cutting edge, but I have no idea what benefits it has to me.

The message is being lost.

Suggestion.
Bitshares needs two outward facing websites.
Bitshares.org - designed for the lay person/businesses so they can get involved, buy, mine, download app, create wallet
Bitsharespro.org - designed for the tech minded, devs, all the high level techy facts & figures etc

BitShares can't be everything to everyone all on a single webpage.
What would be amazing is if there was some kind of "wizard" tool to help people create all these weird things you can with Bitshares.  There are like dozens of acronyms for things I think?
But anyway > step 1 - do you want to create an asset (like an interesting paying bond) or do you want to create a new loan, ,step 2 - what is your project called step 3 - the charge for this is 500 BTS, please send to this address or buy BTS from here, step 4 - your project is now live -
or whatever, but hopefully you see the benefit of simplicity?

If a lay person lands on the BitShares home page they are greeted with this:
"BitShares is an industrial-grade financial blockchain smart contracts platform" - Bounce rate high much?

  ^^^^ BINGO ^^^^  This is true in my opinion. Adam said basically the same thing in that interview with BM.

[tonyk]

Example:
with 1 BTC worth of BTS you can short 1 BTC. Any x% increase in the BTS price (in respect to BTC) results in profit from that short position. The amount of BTS profited is exactly x/100 in  BTC terms.

So with 100 K BTS  and BTS price at 100,000 BTS/BTC and we short 1 BTC.(we get 100K bts from this sell.)

Your initial outlay will be 200k bts at 2x collateral, all of which is at risk... so if price goes to 200,000 BTS/BTC, you loose 100% of all 200,000 bts

Nope! Exactly 100K BTS.

Do you wanna bet?




1.You deposit exactly 1BTC worth of BTS into an account. (127,353 BTS as of this writing)

2. You give me access to this account (by changing the permissions in the GUI to threshold of 1 and my account weight set to 1)

3. I will short you 1 bitBTC without sending any more money to that account.

4. When you have 1 bitBTC short in that account, everything that is not in collateral is what I get for winning the bet. ( Idk, maybe even I can leave you 50% of all proceeds of bitBTC sold above feed price    )


Deal?

PS
You might also post the account here so the curious can enjoy.

PSS
I cut your post to the point where you got it wrong, so the rest of it is based on erroneous facts.

[morpheus]

Example:
with 1 BTC worth of BTS you can short 1 BTC. Any x% increase in the BTS price (in respect to BTC) results in profit from that short position. The amount of BTS profited is exactly x/100 in  BTC terms.

So with 100 K BTS  and BTS price at 100,000 BTS/BTC and we short 1 BTC.(we get 100K bts from this sell.)

Your initial outlay will be 200k bts at 2x collateral, all of which is at risk... so if price goes to 200,000 BTS/BTC, you loose 100% of all 200,000 bts

The price doubles (aka 100% price increase) to 50,000 BTS/BTC. We buy the one bitBTC back paying 50K from the 100K BTS we got from selling it => profit of 50K BTS... which are worth exactly 1 BTC. and we have exactly 100% profit on 100% price increase.
This btw continues on - at 120% increase one will have 120% profit and so on... and the potential lost is never .well more than 100% or 1BTC worth of BTS.

If price goes to 50,000 BTS/BTC, then we use 50,000 bts to buy back the 1 BTC, giving us a 25% profit on initial capital put at risk.  50,000 of 200,000 is 25%

If price goes to 0 BTS/BTC (max), then we we gain 100,000 bts, which is 50% of the 200,000 bts put at risk, capping our gains at 50% of initial capital put at risk.  I suppose you could say your gain in BTC is infinite but if the price of bitcoin is 0 at the time of redemtion, have you really gained anything in terms of purchasing power when priced in bitcoin. 

Its kind of like putting $200,000 down to buy a $100,000 house and selling the house for $100,000, netting you $300,000 with debt of the house.  Then the house burns to the ground and is worth $0.  You reacquire the house for $0 and return it to repay the loan and you end up with $300,000.  Realistically, did you gain infinite purchasing power because the house burned to the ground, or did you gain $100,000 of purchasing power because the house burned to the ground?  You gained $100,000 of purchasing power on a $200,000 outlay so your gain is 50%.  If the price of the house would have gone to $200,000, your loss would be 100%.

I know it sounds really bass-ackwards, but that is how most people are looking at it around here.  We need to start looking at bts as the native reserve currency of the system, which will be tough as far as adoption is concerned, but is doable and necessary for the system to thrive.  Who knows, eventually it could become a viable international currency and perhaps the world's reserve currency.

[tonyk]

Simply this:



This is why we are not seeing any growth in the smartcoin market. 

Nice pic.... well maybe not so much, idk just a fan of all white green and red flags.

With risk to seriously derail a nice thread, dare to explain what it actually means? Cause from my corner smart coins have unlimited return potential and yes return equal  to 100% of the price movement and limited loss potential at only 100%..

Example:
with 1 BTC worth of BTS you can short 1 BTC. Any x% increase in the BTS price (in respect to BTC) results in profit from that short position. The amount of BTS profited is exactly x/100 in  BTC terms.

So with 100 K BTS  and BTS price at 100,000 BTS/BTC and we short 1 BTC.(we get 100K bts from this sell.)
The price doubles (aka 100% price increase) to 50,000 BTS/BTC. We buy the one bitBTC back paying 50K from the 100K BTS we got from selling it => profit of 50K BTS... which are worth exactly 1 BTC. and we have exactly 100% profit on 100% price increase.
This btw continues on - at 120% increase one will have 120% profit and so on... and the potential lost is never .well more than 100% or 1BTC worth of BTS.

[Empirical1.2]

bitshares change tooooooooooooooooooooo much.

its the democratic comunity that his leader come and say we going to change everything cuz is better and we have approval of stakeholders,,,,,, without voting

the coders make his own cryptonomex bussiness at side of bitshares

no moar funders or reputation for comunity members, also heard weird histories of devs working here talking shit about Stan ect..

its a total private platform and you see identabit, if tomorrow comes Citybank to buy a clone of bitshares, bitshares holder dont win nothing. (a sharedrop if company want to do it.) Criptonomex eat all.

i think good question is why normal people should use bitshares or what profit they has  ,,, i not find responses, remember bitsharesX i have reasons with bitshares 2.0 NO

what i learn here from greedy devs-delegates i just not move one finger again if my pocket isnt filled with BTS.

my work isnt have less value than a coder, so promote Bitshares your self when finish coding.

you want comunnity invest , comunitty spread the word for about 3 years make few big structural changes , FOR NOTHIG just to FILL your pockets. common and now you surprised we finish alone communitty gone. What can had fail we do same shit like steve jobs breaking status quo with devs & comunitty ----- WHY nobody uses BTS2.0 if is tha best (to fill your pockets)

almost BTS 2 is finished but all the rest of DACs still are on the way....  lot of promises .... no results ... people gone.

That's funny how it's seen in a completely different light from developers side - while we are working hard being significantly underpaid for more than a year now, a lot of community members and original investors sell their stake just in order to speculate on some brand new fancy cryptocoin.
Every basis point lost in BitShares market cap is a missed opportunity to implement some new feature or attract more users/developers.
Saying Cryptonomex is greedy while it's trying to save BitShares releasing Graphene under free license and not going after any IP, just to make it more attractive for developers at the price of making Cryptonomex completely running out of anything that can be sold to investors, to banks or anybody else. I would say that Cryptonomex has sacrificed its own future trying to save BitShares, so it's weird to hear how greedy we are.

We've spent millions via donations on development, then money from dilution and money from CNX and you've been underpaid in the process & yet BTS hasn't developed a product/service that attracts users or one that would make a compelling addition to Microsoft Azure's 'Blockchain As A Service'

The other argument is that we now have a very strong platform for others to build on & that's true to an extent, I think there's a lot of potential with FBA's but many would say Ethereum is better suited to that. Also It's been past investors that have paid for the BTS platform but future investors who will reap the benefit.

We can still be ahead of our competitors - they can stumble upon the same issues, so we have a chance to resolve product-market fit issue first.
Do you think there are blockchain projects achieved product-market fit already and show a good traction? Please post some examples here.

1. NuBits designed a very simple product first and with funds generated from that product that they know now has a market, not funds from new investors, or speculators, they're rolling out multiple new NuCurrencies and building an exchange. (They also paid out 25% in dividends to their investors in 2015)

(Not blockchain based but Uphold is supposedly the faster growing money platform in the world on the back of their centralized BitAssets.) 

So personally I think the product you do have is Smartcoins & everything should be focused on that and billions await the winner.

PM's have some potential, but probably more for a PM focused outfit like Augur,  and we're seeing the rudimentary beginnings of those now too.

My fear is that BTS will continue draining existing investors for general platform development, nice to have 'features' that aren't actually a product/service so that third parties can build on the platform which won't necessarily benefit BTS holders as demonstrated by MSC and XCP. (6 of the top 8 assets use those platfroms but XCP & MSC combined  is <$3 million - http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/  )

[infovortice2013]

bitshares change tooooooooooooooooooooo much.

its the democratic comunity that his leader come and say we going to change everything cuz is better and we have approval of stakeholders,,,,,, without voting

the coders make his own cryptonomex bussiness at side of bitshares

no moar funders or reputation for comunity members, also heard weird histories of devs working here talking shit about Stan ect..

its a total private platform and you see identabit, if tomorrow comes Citybank to buy a clone of bitshares, bitshares holder dont win nothing. (a sharedrop if company want to do it.) Criptonomex eat all.

i think good question is why normal people should use bitshares or what profit they has  ,,, i not find responses, remember bitsharesX i have reasons with bitshares 2.0 NO

what i learn here from greedy devs-delegates i just not move one finger again if my pocket isnt filled with BTS.

my work isnt have less value than a coder, so promote Bitshares your self when finish coding.

you want comunnity invest , comunitty spread the word for about 3 years make few big structural changes , FOR NOTHIG just to FILL your pockets. common and now you surprised we finish alone communitty gone. What can had fail we do same shit like steve jobs breaking status quo with devs & comunitty ----- WHY nobody uses BTS2.0 if is tha best (to fill your pockets)

almost BTS 2 is finished but all the rest of DACs still are on the way....  lot of promises .... no results ... people gone.

That's funny how it's seen in a completely different light from developers side - while we are working hard being significantly underpaid for more than a year now, a lot of community members and original investors sell their stake just in order to speculate on some brand new fancy cryptocoin.
Every basis point lost in BitShares market cap is a missed opportunity to implement some new feature or attract more users/developers.
Saying Cryptonomex is greedy while it's trying to save BitShares releasing Graphene under free license and not going after any IP, just to make it more attractive for developers at the price of making Cryptonomex completely running out of anything that can be sold to investors, to banks or anybody else. I would say that Cryptonomex has sacrificed its own future trying to save BitShares, so it's weird to hear how greedy we are.

sorry, not want to offense,  when say greedy and your pockets reffer all changes no profit to users no profit to investors no profit for active communitty just devs delegates and services profiting.
bitsharesX profit for everyholder burning fees its a little big change.

Still now i belive BTS is the best tool for unbanked people, and best base for corporations to decentralice.

i think BitShares need to be security audited to have some kind of inssurance for people put his money in or big corporations decide adopt it

[xeroc]

Market cap doesn't reflect underlying value because it takes research to see how much is going on here and many would rather just analyze short term chart wiggles.  Crypto capital is not stable.  It can move from trend to trend since it is not locked up like it is with normal startup investments.  Allocation of capital is not driven by fundamentals and speculators often sell following great news.  To take our price out of the hands of short term speculators we need to create other, more stable sources of demand.

^^ This