Author Topic: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!  (Read 66066 times)

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Offline yvv

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Sorry my English maybe.

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.
If you have BTC - you buy bitUSD with BTC on say polo or from blocktrades gateway.
More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)

And how do you derive a settlement price for bitUSD, if you don't trade BTS against real USD at external exchange?
The external exchange isn't real USD either. It's an issued asset just like bitUSD.

No, it is not like bitUSD. True that it is not a real USD though. It is an IOU which is hard pegged to 1 Fed Reserve USD. In contrast to USD IOU, bitUSD is loosely pegged to Fed Reserve USD, but has no counter party risk. In order to peg bitUSD to USD, you need to trade USD or some hard pegged IOU for BTS to derive a settlement price. What is your solution to this issue?

Offline noisy

I think I got it. Is that mean, that to have a possibility of issuing bitCNY, we have to have a possibility of buying BTS directly by bitCNY ? etc?
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline Riverhead


Sorry my English maybe.

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.
If you have BTC - you buy bitUSD with BTC on say polo or from blocktrades gateway.
More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)

And how do you derive a settlement price for bitUSD, if you don't trade BTS against real USD at external exchange?
The external exchange isn't real USD either. It's an issued asset just like bitUSD.

Ask mtgox bag holders how real it was.

Offline yvv

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Sorry my English maybe.

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.
If you have BTC - you buy bitUSD with BTC on say polo or from blocktrades gateway.
More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)

And how do you derive a settlement price for bitUSD, if you don't trade BTS against real USD at external exchange?
 

Offline noisy

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.

Ok, so how bitUSD will be issued? It will be like... new bitUSD will produce new BTS... worth exactly 1 USD?
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline Riverhead

More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)

 +5%

Like a real share. You can't just send someone 300 shares of MRK you have to sell it to them if even for $1.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 11:37:51 pm by Riverhead »

Offline tonyk

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The only downside is that the value of BTS would fall in the short-term due to loss of liquidity.  The conversion would take a long time as people would need to withdraw from exchanges before the shares get locked up.

I do not think low liquidity equals low prices. But the speculator in me says - "Great, if it is a temporary thing, and this is fundamental correct business decision on the co-op's part - Time to buy cheap."

I am wondering whether that's me, or that's it's a little bit difficult to understand? Seriously, am I reading this 4th time :/

Ok, So I have $20 and I want to trade them for some bitAsset. What I will have to do, in few different steps... ?
Sorry my English maybe.

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.
If you have BTC - you buy bitUSD with BTC on say polo or from blocktrades gateway.
More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline noisy

I am wondering whether that's me, or that's it's a little bit difficult to understand? Seriously, am I reading this 4th time :/

Ok, So I have $20 and I want to trade them for some bitAsset. What I will have to do, in few different steps... ?
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline fuzzy

Tony, this is a great idea :)  Almost makes up for all of your other posts!

The way I understand it is that the only way to enter or exit a BTS position is through the internal market.

This would end up cutting off any exchange that didn't become a gateway *or* list BitUSD.  The impact would be to get BTS off of the exchanges.

The work around would be for an exchange to offer EXCHANGE.BTS that they offer to buy/sell at 1:1... then you transfer EXCHANGE.BTS into the exchange. This extra difficulty would probably cause the internal exchange to be preferred and few exchanges would jump through that hoop.

The only downside is that the value of BTS would fall in the short-term due to loss of liquidity.  The conversion would take a long time as people would need to withdraw from exchanges before the shares get locked up.

which considering the timing is not exactly a great thing in a market  where all most care about is market cap.   So i guess the questions is if the downsides outweigh the benefits. 

Regardless it is certainly awesome to see such a productive and solution oriented approach!
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Offline bytemaster

Tony, this is a great idea :)  Almost makes up for all of your other posts!

The way I understand it is that the only way to enter or exit a BTS position is through the internal market.

This would end up cutting off any exchange that didn't become a gateway *or* list BitUSD.  The impact would be to get BTS off of the exchanges.

The work around would be for an exchange to offer EXCHANGE.BTS that they offer to buy/sell at 1:1... then you transfer EXCHANGE.BTS into the exchange. This extra difficulty would probably cause the internal exchange to be preferred and few exchanges would jump through that hoop.

The only downside is that the value of BTS would fall in the short-term due to loss of liquidity.  The conversion would take a long time as people would need to withdraw from exchanges before the shares get locked up.




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Offline tonyk

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1. bitSHARES (or dShares if BM is stubborn and we have to make a separate chain) are NON - send-able digital shares in a decentralized exchange co-op.
a. unlike other money like digital tokens they cannot be send to other account. Those digital shares can only be bought/sold, and they can only be bought in one place - the co-ops own decentralized exchange.
b. they are true shares in a business entity - regularly (monthly/quarterly) all proceeds of the co-op [which are in bitUSD only.More on this later] are split between all accounts having more then a system-wise min. number of shares.
c. as a consequence the only things potentially available to trade on centralized exchanges are bitAssets.
e. to become a own of the co-op you have to by bitUSD for USD and with to purchase shares in the DEX.

2. -[ short summery of some of the differences (and nuances) compared  with current system.]
a.  bitUSD are created by the system and loaned anyone upon providing an asset as collateral. The amount of collateral needed should be 1.75 - 2 times bigger than the loan. In the most common case the collateral will be the shares in the co-op itself. The value of this collateral is determined by the last trading price of such shares in the in-house DEX itself.
b.no feed needed - all the prices are already there on the DEX
c. perfect peg all the time - what is changing is the value (price) of the bitShares' shares themselves, the bitUSD stays at 1 USD.
d. calling the bitUSD loans/force sell of the collateral.
Whenever a trade in the DEX occurs, with such a price that the collateral will have a value smaller than 1.75 times the loan the collateral is put up for sale
- the starting price is the price that triggered this forced liquidation. If the collateral is not sold at that price, each 15min (15*60/3 blocks) the price is decreased by 1% until it is sold.

3. The 'core' token of the system is bitUSD - this means among other things -all fees* are paid in it;
-workers(and witnesses) are paid in it also; the system pays the worker and issues 2x new bitShares; those new bitShares are put for sale on the market for the stakeholders to buy; the same rules as the collateral liquidation rules are followed - starting with the last observed real trade price and decreasing 1% every 15min.
- the regular dividends are paid from the fees collected (in bitUSD) in bitUSD.
-This also means that the users of the system (DEX here mainly for now), are not forced to be BTS holders at all. They just buy bitUSD for USD (with say 0.3% cut for the fiat bridge) and trade on the DEX exchange for whatever they like. [but it is a carrot instead of a stick approach - see under fees* below]

4. BitAsset should use bitUSD (instead of co-op's shares) as primary collateral.[Subject to debate - but seems pretty logical]

*fees in the new bitShares are fully in agreement with the recent 'no fees based on ownership of stake in the co-op' approach. For those that feel forced into buying into BTS by this - they just pay the non-member fees in bitUSD and trade freely on the DEX

Benefits:
- Clear distinction of the SHARES from money and tokes and more close resemblance to shares (and probably partnership based ownership of an entity)
- This new way should lead to significant slow down of the velocity of the asset [note to myself: should elaborate more on that]
- Virtually perfect peg - all that is moving is the price of the co-ops shares, really.
- Instant no feed, but pure DEX(market) based pricing of the bitAssets.

?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 05:33:09 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.