Author Topic: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!  (Read 65922 times)

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Offline donkeypong

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I hope someone decides to fork the project, sharedrop on the BTS chain, implement this idea and focus on stabilizing what we already have. Looking at the tech we already have, I don't see why that second chain can't be successful and still compliment BTS efforts.

I'm with you there, mostly. I'd rather see it happen within our current scheme. Why can't another token be used for this 'experiment' instead of BTS? But if all we see is inertia, then maybe somebody should fork it. See what works best. Let the market decide and may the best chain win. 

Offline tbone

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

What the hell are you talking about?  Why would they have to do anything different than what they are ALREADY doing to enable their users to trade POLONIEX.BTS IOU tokens?   As @Riverhead already pointed out, the only thing Poloniex would have to do is remove BTS from their withdrawal page, leaving BitUSD/BitCNY (and perhaps BTC if we get a sidechain going) as the only options to get funds onto the DEX from Poloniex.

This was my first reaction but read the OP again, there can't be transfers to accounts, they can only be traded on orderbooks. People would have no guarantee to get their bts back if Polo used them for that. Meaning they would need to take it out first. Then Polo would have no BTS unless they bought them themselves.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  It's a given that BTS cannot be transferred in the OP scenario.  But user will still be able to transfer BTC to Poloniex and trade a POLO.BTS token.  They'll also still be able to move funds from Poloniex to the DEX by buying BitUSD (or BitCNY) and then transfering THAT to the DEX.  Sure, it would be less practical for users, but that just means fewer people moving funds to the DEX. And from Poloniex's standpoint there would be NO CHANGE, other than disabling BTS transfers on their withdrawal page. 

So can we put this issue to bed already?  We can't prevent external trading of an asset on Poloniex (or others).  A new chain would have the same problem.   As long as the exchange can buy/sell the asset somewhere, they can let their users trade IOUs on their exchange.  And they wouldn't need to hold any more of the asset than they do currently. 

In any event, disabling core token transfers will be pointless until enough people have enough reasons to trade on the DEX.  Also think about this. Currently no one is trading BTS on the DEX, and it's a top 10 cryptocurrency. So tell me, if BTS is forked to xShares, who on earth is going to trade shares of an unknown DAC on an unknown DEX?  Let alone the fact that most people don't even know what the hell a DAC and a DEX are to begin with.  So the point is, a new chain doesn't solve any problems.  In fact, it just gives us an additional set of problems, not to mention dividing resources and focus.  And it will scare some of us away.  You think intraday .00000401 on Jan 7th was painful?  That would look like a picnic by comparison.

We should really get focused here.  Let's do what we can to improve liquidity of bitAssets, with primary focus on BitUSD and secondary focus on BitCNY (for now).  At the same time, let's explore the BTC sidechain idea, and continue to make it more attractive to trade on the DEX. 
 
By the way, as trading on the DEX starts to pick up, perhaps we can start increasing the cost of transferring BTS so it becomes cheaper and cheaper to transfer via BitUSD/CNY vs. BTS.  This way we can essentially ease into approximating the disabling of BTS transfers and see how it goes.   
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 01:57:14 am by tbone »

TravelsAsia

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.
Cool, thanks. That's good if not's very practical.

The cat is already out of the bag as it were. I don't think BTS can be made non transferable now that it's out in the free market. It could be the seed idea for a BTS fork project though. CoopShares?

 +5%

I hope someone decides to fork the project, sharedrop on the BTS chain, implement this idea and focus on stabilizing what we already have. Looking at the tech we already have, I don't see why that second chain can't be successful and still compliment BTS efforts.

Offline hadrian

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

It'd be rather peculiar if centralized exchanges ended up with, rather than BTS IOU, a token pegged to the value of BTS called... I don't know... bitBTS!
bitBTS - transferable, but without any of the benefits of BTS (voting power, enabling free transactions, sharedrop target etc.)...

When a user wants to withdraw this to get the equivalent to their BTS account it wouldnt be possible because there can't be transfers according to the OP. They need to go to the orderbook first and as such there is no guarantee you can get them.

There would be no transfers of BTS, but there could be transfers of a BitShares smartcoin such as bitBTS.

and how would users claim them for the original? they wouldn't. Would they peg it to the original bts? Otherwise since they would have more volume they would be the ones setting the price, which wouldn't even make sense. Might as well call it any other name.

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and how would users claim them for the original? they wouldn't.
Correct. I wasn't meaning for them to be able to.
Quote
Would they peg it to the original bts?
bitBTS would be a BitShares asset pegged to (and backed by) tonyk's non-transferable BTS.

I was only imagining a peculiar scenario whereby traders on centralized exchanges could trade bitBTS - based solely on the 'monetary' value of BTS. The non-transferable BTS itself would carry it's 'monetary' value plus the benefits associated with holding BTS such as voting power, enabling free transactions and sharedrops and whatever else we wish to bestow upon it. Actually, thinking about it, the peg between bitBTS and BTS may not be 1:1 because each has pros and cons compared with the other...

Sorry if I wasn't (or am not) being clear.
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.
Cool, thanks. That's good if not's very practical.

The cat is already out of the bag as it were. I don't think BTS can be made non transferable now that it's out in the free market. It could be the seed idea for a BTS fork project though. CoopShares?

Could there still be value in implementing it on FBA's, maybe STEALTH?

As an extreme example, the Augur IOU on Gatecoin currently values Augur at $45 million.
It's not but hypothetically, if Augur was a non-transferrable BTS FBA, that would be a lot of business which would be driven to the DEX, assuming it's impractical for centralized exchanges to do IOU's once the underlying is trading.
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Offline donkeypong

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So just use another token rather than BTS. What about dexSHARES?

Is anything going to be done with tonyk's suggestion or is this just an intellectual exercise?

Offline Riverhead

Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.
Cool, thanks. That's good if not's very practical.

The cat is already out of the bag as it were. I don't think BTS can be made non transferable now that it's out in the free market. It could be the seed idea for a BTS fork project though. CoopShares?


Offline Empirical1.2

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

Cool, thanks. That's good if not's very practical.
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Offline Akado

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

It'd be rather peculiar if centralized exchanges ended up with, rather than BTS IOU, a token pegged to the value of BTS called... I don't know... bitBTS!
bitBTS - transferable, but without any of the benefits of BTS (voting power, enabling free transactions, sharedrop target etc.)...

When a user wants to withdraw this to get the equivalent to their BTS account it wouldnt be possible because there can't be transfers according to the OP. They need to go to the orderbook first and as such there is no guarantee you can get them.

There would be no transfers of BTS, but there could be transfers of a BitShares smartcoin such as bitBTS.

and how would users claim them for the original? they wouldn't. Would they peg it to the original bts? Otherwise since they would have more volume they would be the ones setting the price, which wouldn't even make sense. Might as well call it any other name.
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Offline tbone

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So it depends whether crypto traders & speculators would rather stay & trade a BTS IOU on Polo/BTC38 (where they can move in and out of their other crypto positions easily but have a higher risk of loss) or whether they'd rather go through the new, additional BitUSD barrier which possibly increases friction, cost (BitUSD spread) & complexity to get onto the DEX and vice versa.

It's possible, crypto traders & speculators would be more reluctant to move their positions off the centralized exchanges regularly, which could result in less use of the DEX and increased voting power for exchanges. (Who would hold real BTS to back up their BTS IOU.) ?

Exactly.  This is why seriously entertaining the idea of disabling BTS transfers is pretty much insane, at least until use of the DEX (BTS trading in particular) reaches critical mass.  As for a new chain, beyond being pointless, it will divide resources, distract from the task at hand, etc. 

As interesting as tony's idea is (minus the fork), I really wish we would focus on options that are more viable. 

Offline hadrian

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

It'd be rather peculiar if centralized exchanges ended up with, rather than BTS IOU, a token pegged to the value of BTS called... I don't know... bitBTS!
bitBTS - transferable, but without any of the benefits of BTS (voting power, enabling free transactions, sharedrop target etc.)...

When a user wants to withdraw this to get the equivalent to their BTS account it wouldnt be possible because there can't be transfers according to the OP. They need to go to the orderbook first and as such there is no guarantee you can get them.

There would be no transfers of BTS, but there could be transfers of a BitShares smartcoin such as bitBTS.
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Offline Akado

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

It'd be rather peculiar if centralized exchanges ended up with, rather than BTS IOU, a token pegged to the value of BTS called... I don't know... bitBTS!
bitBTS - transferable, but without any of the benefits of BTS (voting power, enabling free transactions, sharedrop target etc.)...

When a user wants to withdraw this to get the equivalent to their BTS account it wouldnt be possible because there can't be transfers according to the OP. They need to go to the orderbook first and as such there is no guarantee you can get them.
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Offline hadrian

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

It'd be rather peculiar if centralized exchanges ended up with, rather than BTS IOU, a token pegged to the value of BTS called... I don't know... bitBTS!
bitBTS - transferable, but without any of the benefits of BTS (voting power, enabling free transactions, sharedrop target etc.)...

edit: I suppose it'd be 'bitBTS IOU' on a centralized exchange!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 09:54:40 pm by hadrian »
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Offline Akado

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

What the hell are you talking about?  Why would they have to do anything different than what they are ALREADY doing to enable their users to trade POLONIEX.BTS IOU tokens?   As @Riverhead already pointed out, the only thing Poloniex would have to do is remove BTS from their withdrawal page, leaving BitUSD/BitCNY (and perhaps BTC if we get a sidechain going) as the only options to get funds onto the DEX from Poloniex.

This was my first reaction but read the OP again, there can't be transfers to accounts, they can only be traded on orderbooks. People would have no guarantee to get their bts back if Polo used them for that. Meaning they would need to take it out first. Then Polo would have no BTS unless they bought them themselves.
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Offline tbone

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Riverhead says it's possible for exchanges to issue an BTS IOU...

It's possible, but not practical. Each exchange would have to buy a massive stake in BTS just to do this; to fund their IOUs which they have to convert from user's bitcoin deposits. This is a huge undertaking for them and a big risk; IMO, they just won't do it.

What the hell are you talking about?  Why would they have to do anything different than what they are ALREADY doing to enable their users to trade POLONIEX.BTS IOU tokens?   As @Riverhead already pointed out, the only thing Poloniex would have to do is remove BTS from their withdrawal page, leaving BitUSD/BitCNY (and perhaps BTC if we get a sidechain going) as the only options to get funds onto the DEX from Poloniex.