No dilution. Now what? Everyone anti dilution please report.

[btswildpig]

It would be nice to see someone address the original post.  It asked a very good question. 

What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?

The current state of BTS is much better than the old BTS1.0 which BM thought that was enough to do the "big thing" and get "millions of users outside of crypto" .
If you think this is not enough , then why on earth would we believed the "big thing" in the first place ?

[tonyk]

imo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.

Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives.

It would be nice to see someone address the original post.  It asked a very good question. 

What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?

I tried above.
I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.

I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.

You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.

Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to  BTS!!!!

lol propaganda? I think I was never the type of doing so. Propaganda was when countless fee threads were made. When people spam each others posts to remove votes from proxy A to B, etc That commentary was completely senseless. Even though I have my own opinion, I always try to understand both sides and not act like a horse with patches on my eyes. I always try to consider all the info and take both sides into account. Like I said, even though I need to emphasize it again, I'm not judging whoever supports no dilution.

I asked a simple question. What comes after no dilution, if that was the case?

While alt is certainly one of the most valuable members in our community, how many alts do you think we have? How many people with the knowledge + willing to do stuff for free can you find? It's a niche within a niche. While it would be preferable to have more productive people with the right skills like him around, the fact we have to face is those kind of members are a rarity.

So that means maybe we should take other measures right? Or are we just going to sit around hoping for more people like that to appear out of thin air? That's my point.

"If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed." Unfortunately given most the community doesn't have the skills to be as productive as him or other members, the only thing they can do is risking their own money and trying to hire people to do what needs to be done.

Now if some stuff should have already been done and ready previously, that's something for another topic as I too, believe, 2.0 was premature, however, what other choices to we have? Whatever your opinion is, you are either "hostage" by no-dilution and consequently no development or by high market rates charged to this community. There's really not much to chose from. You either pay a lot to get stuff done or you don't and things might not go forward. Hence, me asking what is the plan if the community chooses not to pay for development? I'm not advertising the so called dilution, actually, I'm pretty uncomfortable with this situation because you can only choose one of those two options I mentioned.

That's why - if we choose not to pay for development - I'm asking what's the plan and what can we do to make BitShares better?

First off, I do not totally understand his motives that's why I do not proxy to him. I just vote for conservative spending...that being said if one does what I do it does not make a point... at all.
Second, and most importantly his vote does not preclude workers being voted in  does it? I believe he will stop voting no to ALL worker then and there when it does . Until then it is just a way to show his believe in conservative spending.
You on the other hand make a big deal out of it, like it has prevented any development already! Take it for what it is - making a point and pointing that we (collectively as BTS holders) are generally on the side of useless spending... spending for the sake of spending more often than not.

It would be nice to see someone address the original post.  It asked a very good question. 

What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?

I tried above.

[freedom]

People buy virtual currency because bitcoin is a deflation currency, it gives rise to expectations. If the bitshares continue to dilute, it is expected to depreciate, people will be far away from the bitshares. Everything we do is for more people to participate in, a project that is not involved in the project is a failure.


I support alt

[gamey]

It would be nice to see someone address the original post.  It asked a very good question. 

What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?

It is kind of like taxes. I hate them. I'm against a lot of useless government but actually feel government is not strong enough at least some ways.  So I'm anti-taxes, but so is everyone.  The question would be, if you don't think you should pay any taxes, how do you think X,Y,Z is going to happen?  Most people who are of this opinion just have severe cognitive biases that make them act irrationally.  Is that what is going on here with the no-dilution movement?

What do people see as the endgame with development ceasing?

[chryspano]

imo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.

Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives.

I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.

I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.

You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.

Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to  BTS!!!!

You are so wrong Tonyk...

Disagreement in a forum is not "propaganda" and it's so unfair to compare someone that is posting posts in a forum in his free time with the true work someone is puting on bitshares especially when it's NOT in his free time. But, I agree that If we only want "free time" work for bitshares, then we probably don't need any worker proposals, lets see how far this will get us...

A football team that all it's players are playing for free in their free time and another team that some of their players are paid something because of their skills, place your bet to the winner!

Btw no one ever is doing anything for free, there is always a reward, either in the form of money a "feel good" emotion or a posible future reward, by increasing a little bit the reward we increase motivation and the odds of success.

[btswildpig]

If you want features , just give me 1 billion BTS , I will find companies to add features to the point that you will beg me to stop .

But I will tell you upfront with a straight face that the 1 billion BTS will be for nothing because centralized solution fund billions of dollars (not BTS) to develop their service and provide their customers with first class service/24 hours of customer support/fault backup center without a glitch .

I would really be lying if I tell you all the features in the world can compete with these real thing . Even if by some miracle the real users do come .......

And most importantly , I will dump 1 billion BTS , and the "real users" that I maybe able to get will contribute 100 BTS per person to the system (if there is 100,000 of them, and it's a number that most of you would think more than enough ) . So you do the math , how on earth will BTS profit from that "real users" ?? 

To sustain BTS's marketcap , investors are always more important than users . Especially "speculators" . So-called Long term investors only provide liquidity once .

[Akado]

imo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.

Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives.

I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.

I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.

You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.

Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to  BTS!!!!

lol propaganda? I think I was never the type of doing so. Propaganda was when countless fee threads were made. When people spam each others posts to remove votes from proxy A to B, etc That commentary was completely senseless. Even though I have my own opinion, I always try to understand both sides and not act like a horse with patches on my eyes. I always try to consider all the info and take both sides into account. Like I said, even though I need to emphasize it again, I'm not judging whoever supports no dilution.

I asked a simple question. What comes after no dilution, if that was the case?

While alt is certainly one of the most valuable members in our community, how many alts do you think we have? How many people with the knowledge + willing to do stuff for free can you find? It's a niche within a niche. While it would be preferable to have more productive people with the right skills like him around, the fact we have to face is those kind of members are a rarity.

So that means maybe we should take other measures right? Or are we just going to sit around hoping for more people like that to appear out of thin air? That's my point.

"If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed." Unfortunately given most the community doesn't have the skills to be as productive as him or other members, the only thing they can do is risking their own money and trying to hire people to do what needs to be done.

Now if some stuff should have already been done and ready previously, that's something for another topic as I too, believe, 2.0 was premature, however, what other choices to we have? Whatever your opinion is, you are either "hostage" by no-dilution and consequently no development or by high market rates charged to this community. There's really not much to chose from. You either pay a lot to get stuff done or you don't and things might not go forward. Hence, me asking what is the plan if the community chooses not to pay for development? I'm not advertising the so called dilution, actually, I'm pretty uncomfortable with this situation because you can only choose one of those two options I mentioned.

That's why - if we choose not to pay for development - I'm asking what's the plan and what can we do to make BitShares better?

[tonyk]

imo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.

Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives.

I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.

I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.

You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.

Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to  BTS!!!!

[chryspano]

Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives.

I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.

Trying to run with an injured leg is bad too, but if your life depents on it you should run like hell is after you.

I see no reasoning in what they are doing. Perhaps they believe that by taking bitshares as hostage they will force some people to buy more bts for votes and the price be pumped.

imo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.

[Samupaha]

I would like to emphasize (again) a point of view that we really don't have any dilution anymore. Quantity of BTS is hardcapped to 3.7 billion and that's it.

The real question is: how we should use the funds that are in the reserve pool? The whole point of our DAC is to grow reserve pool – it means that we are doing good business. The goal is to collect more fees from the customers than it costs to produce the service.

The "antidilution" argument is, as I see it, that we should concentrate on minimizing project funding from reserve pool. That is of course a one way to help growing the reserve pool – less we take from it, faster it grows. At least in theory. Obviously this leads to a problem: if we don't pay for developers, who is going to develop the products and services that customers can use? If we don't have products and services, we don't have customers, and if we don't have customers, there is nobody paying fees to the reserve pool.

The "dilution" argument is that we should fund as much development as possible, because it is the only viable way of getting paying customers.

So let's simplify this. We can grow the reserve pool by:
- Minimizing any kind of project funding (taking less from it). This requires that projects are funded by other means.
- Collecting more fees (putting more into it). This requires lots of paying customers. Maybe also higher fees, at least as high as customers are willing to pay.

Third option might be some kind of fund locking. Funds might be out of reserve pool, but if they are somehow locked, it's effectively same thing as having them in the reserve pool. They can't be sold in the market.

I have a feeling that most of the "antidilution" people haven't really understood how a DAC is supposed to work.

[Akado]

Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives.

I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.

[abit]

Please check @sudo's recent posts.

[Akado]

I'm not exactly pro dilution, I just think we only need to manage our funds carefully and support what we need and not just do random stuff.

I just want to understand the members who vote no for all worker proposal; Assume we have zero dilution. No worker is available. We don't have dilution any more.

Now what? What do we do? What does BitShares do? What do you expect to happen? Users and adopters will come? What do you think we should focus now? What do you want to do? Nothing? How do we improve, how do we bring new users? We wait or do you have a plan? Will it just get traded? What should we focus on? What can we do with no funds? Will liquidity increase by itself? Can we increase volume and liquidity? Can we do something positive for BitShares with no dilution? If so, how? Of course we, as a community, shouldn't rely solely on dilution, I agree with that, but then, what would you suggest?


I'm not judging you, I just want to understand your point of view, because currently, I don't. If we have no dilution, what do we do then? What would you suggest BitShares should focus on if we had no dilution?

I want to hear your opinions and plans so I can understand your point of view on this, please.