Author Topic: Merger of STEEM and BTS  (Read 11333 times)

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Offline BTSdac

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merge ,it is an old story .   
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Offline gamey

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This discussion on Steemit would have been worth $1500 by now.

I sometimes read STEEM in STEALTH mode.

Too bad they didn't sharedrop. shrug. Honestly, if I sign up for it, it will be 100% lock to fail. That is a near proven law. Is that really what you want?

I wish I was kidding.
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Offline donkeypong

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This discussion on Steemit would have been worth $1500 by now.

Offline gamey

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For the record, steemit currently uses the same ranking algorithm as Reddit.  Rich whales do not dictate what you see.  Just who gets paid. 


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THank you for the clarification.  Although I'm sure you guys are sick of me, it is never my intention to spread bad information.

That is far far more reasonable. Not sure where I got the wrong thing in my head.

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Offline thereverseflash

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For the record, steemit currently uses the same ranking algorithm as Reddit.  Rich whales do not dictate what you see.  Just who gets paid. 


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Offline gamey

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Yes Reddit historically hasn't had more advertising and censorship due to fear of negative user reaction.

A well known case study was apparently Digg, a Reddit predecessor which went from a $200 million valuation in 2008 to being sold in 2012 for $500 000 after a negative reaction to an advertiser friendly redesign and censorship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digg

Quote
Protesting at the removal of the upcoming news page, the default setting of "My News", deleted favourites, the apparent front page domination of a handful of publishers, and the removal of the "bury" button (for voting down stories), Digg users flooded the front page with links to rival aggregators and pleaded with chief executive Kevin Rose to turn back the clock.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/pda/2010/aug/31/digg-redesign-revolt

Since 2015 Reddit has introduced a lot more censorship to make their site more advertiser friendly, more prominent advertising and a much larger advertising team but this has resulted in negative reactions that have driven traffic to competitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voat

Quote
In February, 2015, following accusations of censorship on Reddit, a surge of Reddit users created accounts on Voat.[18]
In early June, 2015, after Reddit banned five of its subreddits for harassment—the largest of which had around 150,000 subscribers[19][20]—many users of Reddit began to create accounts on Voat.[21] The influx of new participants temporarily overloaded the site, causing downtime.

Even with recent changes I think Reddit are only projected to make $20 million in revenue in 2016 and may still be in the red and given that the highest valuation they've raised funds at is $500 million it's hard to justify Steem's $30 million valuation imo especially as they have a no/low revenue model and have additional costs of paying content curators, creators and sometimes voters. Plus they're also paying to acquire users at the moment. So I personally think their users might have a low/no/even negative value in terms of how serious investors will value them. 

There's a similar product based on Ethereum coming soon which I haven't looked into much...

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/censorship-free-social-network-akasha-aims-to-tackle-internet-censorship-with-blockchain-technology-1464810249

Quote
the project gradually evolved into something more interconnected and social that could be compared to a decentralized Medium or Reddit.

They plan for users to earn ETH from content creation. http://akasha.world/

Quote
Moreover, the votes are bundled with ETH micro transactions so if your content is good you’ll make ETH from it – in a way, mining with your mind.

I have a feeling being based on ETH and being launched in a more transparent and crypto-currency community perceived fair way they've definitely got a good shot at gaining some initial traction & I'll be interested in looking at the business model regards how revenue for content creators etc. is created.

I remember Digg. I was one of the user's they lost. Aggregators are probably the most harmful addictions I've ever had in my life.Aggregators have been a consumer of far too much time that has been lost learning things of questionable value. I no longer remember the specifics of what Digg changed, but the new site lost me too. Thats a problem, aggregator sites have no _real_ community. Even sites that have a real community can have huge shifts in usage when the owner does something widely despised. Still, I would have expected Reddit to have a bit more ads.  Oh yea they do have the sponsored item at the top. Thats all I remember. VC money is a wonderful thing. I'm not sure how their expenses are so high ...

It makes sense that Reddit is treading carefully. It is also kinda funny that they can't make any money.  In a way that makes me happy. If one site is going to be so dominant, lets at least force them to give us an A+ user experience and not a bunch of dodgy ads.

I think an ETH based solution will have much more appeal but they're going to be screwed if they pay for storing content on the ETH blockchain. There needs to be a FACTOM style service for ETH that is closely integrated to ETH, but even that likely wouldn't scale. IMO Steemit is low-hanging yet poorly chosen fruit for a blockchain.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 04:14:17 am by gamey »
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Offline Empirical1.2

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STEEM is a Reddit-esque social media platform. What is Reddit's problem?

http://www.recode.net/2014/3/3/11624114/still-in-the-red-reddit-to-donate-one-tenth-of-ad-revenue-to-charity

Reddit's problem is that even with a massive userbase their costs are too high and their revenues are too low.
After ten years Reddit is still a loss making business model despite being the 14th most visited site in the US & 36th in the world in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

Quote
As of 2015, Reddit had 542 million monthly visitors (234 million unique users), ranking 14th most visited web-site in US and 36th in the world.[6] Across 2015, Reddit saw 82.54 billion pageviews, 73.15 million submissions, 725.85 million comments, and 6.89 billion upvotes from its users.[7]

So for STEEM to be an improvement on a Reddit-esque  platform they would have to find a way to drastically increase the revenue and/or reduce the costs of that business model. STEEM have done the opposite...

Quote
Reddit hypothesized that its platform would be improved if everyone who contributed to reddit.com by posting stories, adding comments or voting were rewarded with a fair share in Reddit, Inc1. Steem aims to support social media and online communities by returning much of its value to the people who provide valuable contributions

By paying users for popular content and even for comments/voting they've drastically increased the costs of that business model. Reddit earned <$10 million in 2014, which wasn't even enough to cover expenses. (Crunch some numbers using the wiki to see why it's not worthwhile paying for content on this type of platform and/or how much you'd have to increase revenue by to justify it.)

STEEM also reduces potential revenue per user as their initial user-base will be even less likely to give up personal info, allow targeted advertising or the censoring of board content to make it more advertiser friendly & I won't even go into the differences in the PR approaches.

In practical terms this means STEEM's burn rate (monthly expenses) will presumably be extremely high (paying to acquire users and for their content) but it will achieve no/low revenue and no meaningful longer term valuation from serious investors because the potential value per user, is if anything likely negative, so it will likely run into financial issues very rapidly. 

(It also deliberately went against all the crypto-currency community's cultural regulations, which is fine, but means as a result it's unlikely to be popular/adopted as a crypto-currency in it's own right.)

This is just a personal opinon, feel free to disagree and or make counter arguments especially those more familiar with the business model and future plans but I don't see a Steem merger being an issue as I don't see it being around for long.

(Other than keeping an inflated value for long enough to justify a high percentage stake in some sort of merger I can't see the point.)

I wonder why Reddit doesn't have more advertising. Are they afraid of a negative reaction? That place has almost no ads. I guess maybe there are some in the far right column ? 

In general though Steem should be able to run far cheaper than reddit. Although if it scaled up who knows, but it will never have administrative/management staff overhead.  Only the cost of machines.

I just can't see the 'get paid to post' working in the longrun or being sustainable. Also, having large stakeholders be able to up/downvote will be distasteful to a lot of people.

Then there are all the other games being played with vesting and so on so it'll "go to the moon".

Yes Reddit historically hasn't had more advertising and censorship due to fear of negative user reaction.

A well known case study was apparently Digg, a Reddit predecessor which went from a $200 million valuation in 2008 to being sold in 2012 for $500 000 after a negative reaction to an advertiser friendly redesign and censorship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digg

Quote
Protesting at the removal of the upcoming news page, the default setting of "My News", deleted favourites, the apparent front page domination of a handful of publishers, and the removal of the "bury" button (for voting down stories), Digg users flooded the front page with links to rival aggregators and pleaded with chief executive Kevin Rose to turn back the clock.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/pda/2010/aug/31/digg-redesign-revolt

Since 2015 Reddit has introduced a lot more censorship to make their site more advertiser friendly, more prominent advertising and a much larger advertising team but this has resulted in negative reactions that have driven traffic to competitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voat

Quote
In February, 2015, following accusations of censorship on Reddit, a surge of Reddit users created accounts on Voat.[18]
In early June, 2015, after Reddit banned five of its subreddits for harassment—the largest of which had around 150,000 subscribers[19][20]—many users of Reddit began to create accounts on Voat.[21] The influx of new participants temporarily overloaded the site, causing downtime.

Even with recent changes I think Reddit are only projected to make $20 million in revenue in 2016 and may still be in the red and given that the highest valuation they've raised funds at is $500 million it's hard to justify Steem's $30 million valuation imo especially as they have a no/low revenue model and have additional costs of paying content curators, creators and sometimes voters. Plus they're also paying to acquire users at the moment. So I personally think their users might have a low/no/even negative value in terms of how serious investors will value them. 

There's a similar product based on Ethereum coming soon which I haven't looked into much...

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/censorship-free-social-network-akasha-aims-to-tackle-internet-censorship-with-blockchain-technology-1464810249

Quote
the project gradually evolved into something more interconnected and social that could be compared to a decentralized Medium or Reddit.

They plan for users to earn ETH from content creation. http://akasha.world/

Quote
Moreover, the votes are bundled with ETH micro transactions so if your content is good you’ll make ETH from it – in a way, mining with your mind.

I have a feeling being based on ETH and being launched in a more transparent and crypto-currency community perceived fair way they've definitely got a good shot at gaining some initial traction & I'll be interested in looking at the business model regards how revenue for content creators etc. is created.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 01:21:02 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline gamey

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You are right. you don't want to take their STEEM, we just make their STEEM worthless to them by destroying its utility (prompting them to dump it).  Terrific social/economic incentive (they will never see the endgame approaching in an expanding economy)(suckers!).  So let's have a poll to agree on the the maximum amount of STEEM that can be used for voting.

And while we are at it, let's all discuss exactly how much value in personal property that people should be allowed to use (they can own whatever they want)

https://generationopportunity.org/articles/2016/05/17/venezuelan-president-to-punish-private-businesses-for-his-disastrous-economic-policies/

You're right, the marketing pitch for slavery will only be successful if we use doublespeak rhetoric (just don't refer to them as controls or restrictions, but rather "freedom guarantees" or "free speech zones")


"Liberty Mandates!" - bend over and get your Liberty
 
You should post this to STEEM, I'm sure that the wales will give you money for such progressive ideas.


(don't worry, Maduro is just being jokingly sarcastic)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-34929332


Once we agree on how much STEEM we should steal from the rich, then everyone will suddenly leave Reddit in a mass Exodus and flock to STEEM to post about Bernie Sanders

You dropped this.   -->   /s

Uhhhm, it has nothing to do with those economics.  It has all to do with longterm adoption though. When a post's value is stake weighted, then those without any stake will not find any real value in reading there over Reddit except if being paid. It will be a huge turn off to lots (it is for me). If you want your reading controlled by whomever invested in the DAC then thats cool, but I am pretty sure most people will disagree with your stance.  You however live in some weird bubble where your values are purely ideological and no basis in reality. That is also cool, SATAN.

Just to try and explain it a bit further since your eyes get full of STEEM and you can't read straight.  I am not arguing about taking anyone's property. Nor do I think the allocation of STEEM is unfair in any way what so ever. All I am doing is pointing out that most people prefer to have their reading selected by a 1:1 democracy or at least like-minded people. STEEMIT will have neither and this will hurt long term adoption if I understand it correctly.

I already brought this up once in my reference on Monarchy to try to make a point, so I'll continue with that.  You're the kind of fool who would gleefully bow down before the King and his knights, because anything else would be property confiscation.  You would live your life as a noble serf though. Full of liberty to own property, just no way in hell of ever acquiring it. <thumbs up> winning!

I honestly don't care that much.  I don't go around posting in STEEMIT threads on bitcointalk. I do post on here though and that sentence was but one small statement of my opinion. 
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Bytemaster should sharedrop some of his Steem.........onto Brownie.PTS. :P

No sharedrop AFAIK, but he said that at some point he will use some of his steem to buy back some of the brownie.pts

Offline Ander

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Bytemaster should sharedrop some of his Steem.........onto Brownie.PTS. :P
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Offline gamey

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gamey is right, restristricting the ability of large shareholders to vote should be our number one priority right now

and I am not just talking about Steemit whales

Rich people should have their property confiscated so that they have less influence on the voting public and then the world becomes fair again (finally).

 Lets have a vote to find the cutoff point for this property confiscation initiative

Once we agree on how much STEEM we should steal from the rich, then everyone will suddenly leave Reddit in a mass Exodus and flock to STEEM to post about Bernie Sanders

I said nothing of the sort but I do believe that a healthy capitalistic society has to have something to keep it healthy and not a third-world type country (lots of wealth owned by very few) or old school Monarchy. I don't believe that people who inherit money deserve it to near the extent that people who earn it through endeavors. Outside of that, I have no particular beliefs.

Regardless, this example is more about controlling what is read. It is like state-owned media. It is great for those who own the media, but ends up just screwing over everyone else. In America, you can still say what you want through whatever medium. If you like Russian style media, then Steemit style messaging would be your thing.

Having big stake-holders control what info is disseminated has little to do with economics in a direct sense, but please continue on with your idiotic babbling.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 10:21:30 pm by gamey »
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Offline Chronos

Once we agree on how much STEEM we should steal from the rich, then everyone will suddenly leave Reddit in a mass Exodus and flock to STEEM to post about Bernie Sanders

You dropped this.   -->   /s

Offline gamey

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STEEM is a Reddit-esque social media platform. What is Reddit's problem?

http://www.recode.net/2014/3/3/11624114/still-in-the-red-reddit-to-donate-one-tenth-of-ad-revenue-to-charity

Reddit's problem is that even with a massive userbase their costs are too high and their revenues are too low.
After ten years Reddit is still a loss making business model despite being the 14th most visited site in the US & 36th in the world in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

Quote
As of 2015, Reddit had 542 million monthly visitors (234 million unique users), ranking 14th most visited web-site in US and 36th in the world.[6] Across 2015, Reddit saw 82.54 billion pageviews, 73.15 million submissions, 725.85 million comments, and 6.89 billion upvotes from its users.[7]

So for STEEM to be an improvement on a Reddit-esque  platform they would have to find a way to drastically increase the revenue and/or reduce the costs of that business model. STEEM have done the opposite...

Quote
Reddit hypothesized that its platform would be improved if everyone who contributed to reddit.com by posting stories, adding comments or voting were rewarded with a fair share in Reddit, Inc1. Steem aims to support social media and online communities by returning much of its value to the people who provide valuable contributions

By paying users for popular content and even for comments/voting they've drastically increased the costs of that business model. Reddit earned <$10 million in 2014, which wasn't even enough to cover expenses. (Crunch some numbers using the wiki to see why it's not worthwhile paying for content on this type of platform and/or how much you'd have to increase revenue by to justify it.)

STEEM also reduces potential revenue per user as their initial user-base will be even less likely to give up personal info, allow targeted advertising or the censoring of board content to make it more advertiser friendly & I won't even go into the differences in the PR approaches.

In practical terms this means STEEM's burn rate (monthly expenses) will presumably be extremely high (paying to acquire users and for their content) but it will achieve no/low revenue and no meaningful longer term valuation from serious investors because the potential value per user, is if anything likely negative, so it will likely run into financial issues very rapidly. 

(It also deliberately went against all the crypto-currency community's cultural regulations, which is fine, but means as a result it's unlikely to be popular/adopted as a crypto-currency in it's own right.)

This is just a personal opinon, feel free to disagree and or make counter arguments especially those more familiar with the business model and future plans but I don't see a Steem merger being an issue as I don't see it being around for long.

(Other than keeping an inflated value for long enough to justify a high percentage stake in some sort of merger I can't see the point.)

I wonder why Reddit doesn't have more advertising. Are they afraid of a negative reaction? That place has almost no ads. I guess maybe there are some in the far right column ? 

In general though Steem should be able to run far cheaper than reddit. Although if it scaled up who knows, but it will never have administrative/management staff overhead.  Only the cost of machines.

I just can't see the 'get paid to post' working in the longrun or being sustainable. Also, having large stakeholders be able to up/downvote will be distasteful to a lot of people.

Then there are all the other games being played with vesting and so on so it'll "go to the moon".
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Offline mike623317

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I totally agree with svk here!
The nice thing about steem is that any improvements they make can be ported over to bts fairly easy bc its the same code base.
Let them improve and prove their stuff and then just assimilate the best parts.

THIS ^^^^  +5% +5% +5%

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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A straight merger will never happen, just forget about that. What could happen however is Bitshares deciding to adopt some of the features developed for Steem once they've proven that they work, like rate limited free transactions, market maker incentives and possibly the new pegged asset model.

One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets; although the peg works fairly well the generation process through shorting/borrowing is failing to generate enough supply to make the assets viable. Steem has a new solution for this problem that could be ported to Bitshares if it turns out to be more successful. Bitshares currently does not have an ETH asset, perhaps a bitasset 2.0 could be implemented first using ETH, that could generate a lot of interest and would make it very easy for ETH holders to come trade on Bitshares. Anyway, we first need to see the new model in action in Steem, which will happen after the 4th of July..

svk, the new Steem model could not possibly overlap our market and become a competitor...
And it surely can't be used by BitShares...


I wanted to make sure Steem didn't compete with BitShares market.  In fact, one of the reasons I was willing to help with Steem was that its feature set is fundamentally incompatible with BitShares and we could not hardfork BitShares to implement what Steem does.

I never said anything about Steem becoming a competitor.

There's nothing stopping us from paying CNX through worker proposal to add some features from Steem if they work out well though, like the rate limited transactions. Steem is based on Graphene so the code changes needed would not be overwhelming. What features to implement is a discussion for another day though, I'm just saying it's an option that we should consider.

Agreed svk, this way dan.can.keep goiny with steem n everybody can keep going with bts, its reasonable.for everybody, we cannot expect anything for free......but if you guys want a translation.for portuvuese of openledger i can do it for free in my spare time, bts mooooooooooooooooon!
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Offline cylonmaker2053

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Thanks danno to question regard to stealth...... My point of view......marketing shouldnt be a priority...

Lets take facebook example facebook was viral early days because of spreading word people around university.....it was growth mainly this way before reach angel investor....

Lets look poloniex, was a small.exchange, was hacked, it was pretty much fucked, until.xmr come on board n.brought a good volume after that started to pick more users, more volume e picking the best volume for the best coins. No.campaing, no promotion, just strong volume n low fee n.probably a pretty god deal with whales n market makers,

You top guys from bitshares should make some network with big vern, people from dead mintpal, n others n try to get some.contatcs with big player n see what they wnat to make dex come.true

@dannotestein has a great point and interesting perspective from being in the trenches with bitshares.us; there's likely a decent number of people in the crypto community that have privacy as one of the major features they value. in that respect, STEALTH could add value to our network.

Offline cylonmaker2053

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A straight merger will never happen, just forget about that. What could happen however is Bitshares deciding to adopt some of the features developed for Steem once they've proven that they work, like rate limited free transactions, market maker incentives and possibly the new pegged asset model.

One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets; although the peg works fairly well the generation process through shorting/borrowing is failing to generate enough supply to make the assets viable. Steem has a new solution for this problem that could be ported to Bitshares if it turns out to be more successful. Bitshares currently does not have an ETH asset, perhaps a bitasset 2.0 could be implemented first using ETH, that could generate a lot of interest and would make it very easy for ETH holders to come trade on Bitshares. Anyway, we first need to see the new model in action in Steem, which will happen after the 4th of July..

svk, the new Steem model could not possibly overlap our market and become a competitor...
And it surely can't be used by BitShares...


I wanted to make sure Steem didn't compete with BitShares market.  In fact, one of the reasons I was willing to help with Steem was that its feature set is fundamentally incompatible with BitShares and we could not hardfork BitShares to implement what Steem does.

I never said anything about Steem becoming a competitor.

There's nothing stopping us from paying CNX through worker proposal to add some features from Steem if they work out well though, like the rate limited transactions. Steem is based on Graphene so the code changes needed would not be overwhelming. What features to implement is a discussion for another day though, I'm just saying it's an option that we should consider.

great point. i like the idea of keeping the CNX crew around for paid dev work. not to mention they likely still have enormous BTS positions and so are very motivated stakeholders.

too bad STEEM was built on top of Bitshares instead of a separate venture. we need devs and entrepreneurs to start building useful apps on top of our network.

Offline svk

A straight merger will never happen, just forget about that. What could happen however is Bitshares deciding to adopt some of the features developed for Steem once they've proven that they work, like rate limited free transactions, market maker incentives and possibly the new pegged asset model.

One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets; although the peg works fairly well the generation process through shorting/borrowing is failing to generate enough supply to make the assets viable. Steem has a new solution for this problem that could be ported to Bitshares if it turns out to be more successful. Bitshares currently does not have an ETH asset, perhaps a bitasset 2.0 could be implemented first using ETH, that could generate a lot of interest and would make it very easy for ETH holders to come trade on Bitshares. Anyway, we first need to see the new model in action in Steem, which will happen after the 4th of July..

svk, the new Steem model could not possibly overlap our market and become a competitor...
And it surely can't be used by BitShares...


I wanted to make sure Steem didn't compete with BitShares market.  In fact, one of the reasons I was willing to help with Steem was that its feature set is fundamentally incompatible with BitShares and we could not hardfork BitShares to implement what Steem does.

I never said anything about Steem becoming a competitor.

There's nothing stopping us from paying CNX through worker proposal to add some features from Steem if they work out well though, like the rate limited transactions. Steem is based on Graphene so the code changes needed would not be overwhelming. What features to implement is a discussion for another day though, I'm just saying it's an option that we should consider.
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Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Thanks danno to question regard to stealth...... My point of view......marketing shouldnt be a priority...

Lets take facebook example facebook was viral early days because of spreading word people around university.....it was growth mainly this way before reach angel investor....

Lets look poloniex, was a small.exchange, was hacked, it was pretty much fucked, until.xmr come on board n.brought a good volume after that started to pick more users, more volume e picking the best volume for the best coins. No.campaing, no promotion, just strong volume n low fee n.probably a pretty god deal with whales n market makers,

You top guys from bitshares should make some network with big vern, people from dead mintpal, n others n try to get some.contatcs with big player n see what they wnat to make dex come.true
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Offline dannotestein

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Furthermore, a good part of the reason people want to avoid using centralized exchanges is due to privacy concerns, and given that the trail is completely transparent on bitshares.......

[...]
No, I stand by my assertion that the biggest use for the platform was to act as a stablecoin bank. And without stealth, it's never taking off.
Would you use your bank if anyone in the world could check your balance online?

Me neither. Nor would 99.999% of the people.

Anonymity comes from "how" you obtain BTS to transfer in, and "how" you exit BTS, by gatewaying it out.

You shouldn't need anonymity within the Dex itself.

I really don't think that's the problem.

I think the problem is soley limited to: 

a) Ease of Use

b) Popularity (you need to use the Dex because everyone else is using the Dex scenario, just like facebook)

c) Education and Advertising as an ongoing effort.

The DAC and DAO, and DEX, all have one fatal flaw.  There's nothing in its design that encourages ongoing promotion of itself.

This is why large corporations (even Coke and Pepsi) to this day, spend gazillions promoting themselves.  Do you think if Coke & Pepsi stopped advertising they would lose market share?  They're industry leaders already.   Yet they don't chance it. :)

Sure, someone could make an offer to do promotion in exchange for payment. But this is a tragedy of the commons problem.  No one wants to spend BTS on something that may not yield a return, so they wait for "the other guy" to do it.  Problem is, we're all "the other guy", and none of us is doing it either.

BitShares as a Dex is a tool that is hoping to go viral without any significant adoption plan.   You don't create a tool hoping smart people will discover the tool.   If that was the case, the next infomercial on TV showing the latest gadget would be non-existent.  They'd simply create a new gadget, put it on store shelves, and "hope" that smart people would discover it in the store, or go by word of mouth.

Word of mouth, and smart people, are very limited ways of growing adoption, and are doomed to fail.

As soon as we realize this problem, perhaps we can fix it.

(Oh, and everytime we get a little "blurb" somewhere in an online article, that is nothing to throw a party about.  That's the very minimal of what we really require)
I do think anonymity is an important issue for the DEX and one that needs a solution. I'm basing this opinion on changes I saw in usage of BlockTrades when BitShares switched from 1.0 which was closer to "bitcoin-level" anonymity to 2.0 (everyone sees everything). BlockTrades "lost" several of our larger customers, including our biggest customer at that time (no, it wasn't anyone related to CNX, but it was a prominent figure in BTS). But, from my understanding of it, I think "blinded transactions" would be sufficient to address the issue.

That said, I do agree that another of the biggest issues facing the DEX is marketing at this point. Most of the active marketing to date is being done by Ronny from OpenLedger, but I think we as a community can do more. I was really happy to see Chronos' worker proposal as it looks like a reasonably priced worker to help out in one of our weak spots: video documentation about various aspects of BitShares. I want to encourage anyone who hasn't voted yet to vote for his proposal and see how it goes.
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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STEEM is a Reddit-esque social media platform. What is Reddit's problem?

http://www.recode.net/2014/3/3/11624114/still-in-the-red-reddit-to-donate-one-tenth-of-ad-revenue-to-charity

Reddit's problem is that even with a massive userbase their costs are too high and their revenues are too low.
After ten years Reddit is still a loss making business model despite being the 14th most visited site in the US & 36th in the world in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

Quote
As of 2015, Reddit had 542 million monthly visitors (234 million unique users), ranking 14th most visited web-site in US and 36th in the world.[6] Across 2015, Reddit saw 82.54 billion pageviews, 73.15 million submissions, 725.85 million comments, and 6.89 billion upvotes from its users.[7]

So for STEEM to be an improvement on a Reddit-esque  platform they would have to find a way to drastically increase the revenue and/or reduce the costs of that business model. STEEM have done the opposite...

Quote
Reddit hypothesized that its platform would be improved if everyone who contributed to reddit.com by posting stories, adding comments or voting were rewarded with a fair share in Reddit, Inc1. Steem aims to support social media and online communities by returning much of its value to the people who provide valuable contributions

By paying users for popular content and even for comments/voting they've drastically increased the costs of that business model. Reddit earned <$10 million in 2014, which wasn't even enough to cover expenses. (Crunch some numbers using the wiki to see why it's not worthwhile paying for content on this type of platform and/or how much you'd have to increase revenue by to justify it.)

STEEM also reduces potential revenue per user as their initial user-base will be even less likely to give up personal info, allow targeted advertising or the censoring of board content to make it more advertiser friendly & I won't even go into the differences in the PR approaches.

In practical terms this means STEEM's burn rate (monthly expenses) will presumably be extremely high (paying to acquire users and for their content) but it will achieve no/low revenue and no meaningful longer term valuation from serious investors because the potential value per user, is if anything likely negative, so it will likely run into financial issues very rapidly. 

(It also deliberately went against all the crypto-currency community's cultural regulations, which is fine, but means as a result it's unlikely to be popular/adopted as a crypto-currency in it's own right.)

This is just a personal opinon, feel free to disagree and or make counter arguments especially those more familiar with the business model and future plans but I don't see a Steem merger being an issue as I don't see it being around for long.

(Other than keeping an inflated value for long enough to justify a high percentage stake in some sort of merger I can't see the point.)

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Offline Empirical1.2

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STEEM is a Reddit-esque social media platform. What is Reddit's problem?

http://www.recode.net/2014/3/3/11624114/still-in-the-red-reddit-to-donate-one-tenth-of-ad-revenue-to-charity

Reddit's problem is that even with a massive userbase their costs are too high and their revenues are too low.
After ten years Reddit is still a loss making business model despite being the 14th most visited site in the US & 36th in the world in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

Quote
As of 2015, Reddit had 542 million monthly visitors (234 million unique users), ranking 14th most visited web-site in US and 36th in the world.[6] Across 2015, Reddit saw 82.54 billion pageviews, 73.15 million submissions, 725.85 million comments, and 6.89 billion upvotes from its users.[7]

So for STEEM to be an improvement on a Reddit-esque  platform they would have to find a way to drastically increase the revenue and/or reduce the costs of that business model. STEEM have done the opposite...

Quote
Reddit hypothesized that its platform would be improved if everyone who contributed to reddit.com by posting stories, adding comments or voting were rewarded with a fair share in Reddit, Inc1. Steem aims to support social media and online communities by returning much of its value to the people who provide valuable contributions

By paying users for popular content and even for comments/voting they've drastically increased the costs of that business model. Reddit earned <$10 million in 2014, which wasn't even enough to cover expenses. (Crunch some numbers using the wiki to see why it's not worthwhile paying for content on this type of platform and/or how much you'd have to increase revenue by to justify it.)

STEEM also reduces potential revenue per user as their initial user-base will be even less likely to give up personal info, allow targeted advertising or the censoring of board content to make it more advertiser friendly & I won't even go into the differences in the PR approaches.

In practical terms this means STEEM's burn rate (monthly expenses) will presumably be extremely high (paying to acquire users and for their content) but it will achieve no/low revenue and no meaningful longer term valuation from serious investors because the potential value per user, is if anything likely negative, so it will likely run into financial issues very rapidly. 

(It also deliberately went against all the crypto-currency community's cultural regulations, which is fine, but means as a result it's unlikely to be popular/adopted as a crypto-currency in it's own right.)

This is just a personal opinon, feel free to disagree and or make counter arguments especially those more familiar with the business model and future plans but I don't see a Steem merger being an issue as I don't see it being around for long.

(Other than keeping an inflated value for long enough to justify a high percentage stake in some sort of merger I can't see the point.)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 05:31:26 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline crypto4ever

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Furthermore, a good part of the reason people want to avoid using centralized exchanges is due to privacy concerns, and given that the trail is completely transparent on bitshares.......

[...]
No, I stand by my assertion that the biggest use for the platform was to act as a stablecoin bank. And without stealth, it's never taking off.
Would you use your bank if anyone in the world could check your balance online?

Me neither. Nor would 99.999% of the people.

Anonymity comes from "how" you obtain BTS to transfer in, and "how" you exit BTS, by gatewaying it out.

You shouldn't need anonymity within the Dex itself.

I really don't think that's the problem.

I think the problem is soley limited to: 

a) Ease of Use

b) Popularity (you need to use the Dex because everyone else is using the Dex scenario, just like facebook)

c) Education and Advertising as an ongoing effort.

The DAC and DAO, and DEX, all have one fatal flaw.  There's nothing in its design that encourages ongoing promotion of itself.

This is why large corporations (even Coke and Pepsi) to this day, spend gazillions promoting themselves.  Do you think if Coke & Pepsi stopped advertising they would lose market share?  They're industry leaders already.   Yet they don't chance it. :)

Sure, someone could make an offer to do promotion in exchange for payment. But this is a tragedy of the commons problem.  No one wants to spend BTS on something that may not yield a return, so they wait for "the other guy" to do it.  Problem is, we're all "the other guy", and none of us is doing it either.

BitShares as a Dex is a tool that is hoping to go viral without any significant adoption plan.   You don't create a tool hoping smart people will discover the tool.   If that was the case, the next infomercial on TV showing the latest gadget would be non-existent.  They'd simply create a new gadget, put it on store shelves, and "hope" that smart people would discover it in the store, or go by word of mouth.

Word of mouth, and smart people, are very limited ways of growing adoption, and are doomed to fail.

As soon as we realize this problem, perhaps we can fix it.

(Oh, and everytime we get a little "blurb" somewhere in an online article, that is nothing to throw a party about.  That's the very minimal of what we really require)

« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 04:44:27 pm by crypto4ever »

Offline cylonmaker2053

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One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets

Don't underestimate the fact that nobody will want to use money without any privacy at all. Stealth not being here in June is a giant blunder (imo).

I wouldn't hold my breath for stealth to be added to Bitshares anytime soon, the current implementation was always far too clunky and difficult to use to be of any real value. Semi-anonymity is easy to achieve by just using a random account name, that should be enough for most users.

The main use case emerging for Bitshares is as an exchange, so that's where our efforts should be focused. That means finding out what the obstacles are to Bitshares being adopted as a real exchange. Here are some issues I can think of off the top of my head:

- Marketmaker incentives
- Too "big" of a GUI -> a more focused exchange GUI is needed with less features
- Bitassets generation -> needs a new approach to stimulate supply

i don't think we have much of an issue with system specs that prevents traders from using the DEX. We have a bit of a marketing problem, both for end users of our smartcoins and for traders who just haven't yet ventured into our playground. I postulate that we already have a good enough system and we need to focus more on marketing. we really just need to draw in our first big player. we're one interested hedge fund away from really coming alive.

that said, i can also see value in some sort of direct subsidy model for posting collateral to short smartcoins into existence. i don't think it's necessary, but if there's a big urge to experiment with some way of incentivizing shorts, that's the way to go.

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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We just have to stabilish priorities.....what we want with dex? Make it more widespread.....ok, what do we really need to make atract more, what is really lacking? Is stealth? Is a huuuuge market maker? Is improving mpa? Lets just focus in priorities, if dex start putting strong volume people will surrender to it,  n.stakeholders will start to have the control of the game, its hatd for dan to.start from.zero without big money behind him to.make a new dex for steem, we have the money, we can develop n focus n priorities n make things happen.

Regards to open assets, no problem with them, we help then then help us, we will.have gateway all around the world, that is cool, lets help them n make smartcoins happen too.

Time to.setup the train n make it left the station so we will means more hype n more money for development.
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Offline mint chocolate chip

A straight merger will never happen, just forget about that. What could happen however is Bitshares deciding to adopt some of the features developed for Steem once they've proven that they work, like rate limited free transactions, market maker incentives and possibly the new pegged asset model.

One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets; although the peg works fairly well the generation process through shorting/borrowing is failing to generate enough supply to make the assets viable. Steem has a new solution for this problem that could be ported to Bitshares if it turns out to be more successful. Bitshares currently does not have an ETH asset, perhaps a bitasset 2.0 could be implemented first using ETH, that could generate a lot of interest and would make it very easy for ETH holders to come trade on Bitshares. Anyway, we first need to see the new model in action in Steem, which will happen after the 4th of July..

svk, the new Steem model could not possibly overlap our market and become a competitor...
And it surely can't be used by BitShares...


I wanted to make sure Steem didn't compete with BitShares market.  In fact, one of the reasons I was willing to help with Steem was that its feature set is fundamentally incompatible with BitShares and we could not hardfork BitShares to implement what Steem does.

Offline karnal

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@svk:

That goes against what's been discussed by @kenCode and others recently.

The DEX idea is alright and everything, but since bitassets aren't really being used either, is it really any better than poloniex? All these UIAs floating around have just as much counterparty risk - in fact, even greater, as they are much smaller companies with much less resources than polo and all the other big exchanges.

Do you seriously think many people will give polo up for trading at the dex?

And sure, nice to have these ICO/IPOs happening on the Bitshares platform, but how is that going to raise the market cap?
Anyone in their right mind (or who at least understands the counterparty risk) will immediately trade these UIAs off for real deal.

Furthermore, a good part of the reason people want to avoid using centralized exchanges is due to privacy concerns, and given that the trail is completely transparent on bitshares.......

Furthermore, there is no proxying support to this day on the gui, so it is very trivial for any of the centralized endpoints to correlate IPs to usernames.

And it makes little sense to keep generating random accounts to transfer, besides bloating the wallet beyond belief (to say nothing of practicality), wasn't that exactly what this scheme of having unique names was meant to solve?


No, I stand by my assertion that the biggest use for the platform was to act as a stablecoin bank. And without stealth, it's never taking off.
Would you use your bank if anyone in the world could check your balance online?

Me neither. Nor would 99.999% of the people.

Offline blahblah7up

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What could happen however is Bitshares deciding to adopt some of the features developed for Steem once they've proven that they work

It should be made clear that many of the features developed for Steem were effectively stolen from the BitShares community who were actively contributing ideas to improve BITSHARES.

Steem has many innovations that have been discussed here on bitsharestalk and in the mumble sessions including:

1. Only vesting stake can vote for witnesses (19 by approval voting)
2. One witness slot time shared with remaining witnesses (not in the top 19)
3. One witness slot is selected via Proof of Work
4. No transaction fees
5. Vesting stake is protected from any inflation / dilution caused by witnesses / miners.

And this without remuneration.

Offline svk

One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets

Don't underestimate the fact that nobody will want to use money without any privacy at all. Stealth not being here in June is a giant blunder (imo).

I wouldn't hold my breath for stealth to be added to Bitshares anytime soon, the current implementation was always far too clunky and difficult to use to be of any real value. Semi-anonymity is easy to achieve by just using a random account name, that should be enough for most users.

The main use case emerging for Bitshares is as an exchange, so that's where our efforts should be focused. That means finding out what the obstacles are to Bitshares being adopted as a real exchange. Here are some issues I can think of off the top of my head:

- Marketmaker incentives
- Too "big" of a GUI -> a more focused exchange GUI is needed with less features
- Bitassets generation -> needs a new approach to stimulate supply
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Offline karnal

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One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets

Don't underestimate the fact that nobody will want to use money without any privacy at all. Stealth not being here in June is a giant blunder (imo).

Offline cryptillionaire

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I'm afraid there is some kind of misunderstanding here.

Bytemaster never said to merge steem and bitshares together... What he has talked about is the fact that the new types of elements that have been created in steem are not compatible with the current bitshares codebase.

In order for Bitshares to adopt the improvements that have been made in what we know as Steem today.. the best way to do it would be to create basically a bitshares 3.0 .. similar to how we went from 1.0 to 2.0.. in the new network it would have the new features etc.

There is, and never will be, some weird plan to 'merge' bitshares with steem.. it is technically impossible.

Here is the thing.. the codebase that bitshares run on is Graphene and is MIT licensed which means anybody can do what they like with it... which means Bytemaster has a choice.. he can come back to Bitshares and have the community vote and then implement this Bitshares 3.0 plan that incorporates new innovations that were gained from what was done on Steem.. OR.. can create a whole new decentralized exchange and call it something else. I highly doubt that will ever happen though.

Hope this helps clarify some things.
My post: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22317.msg292330.html#msg292330

Post where BM clearly mentions his intent to merge STEEM into BTS: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22317.msg290945.html#msg290945
I think the future is pretty clear for BTS:

1. work out the kinks with Steem
2. merge best parts of steem + BTS into a next generation DEX
3. sharedrop + dev allocation

It is just a much longer roadmap.
His post reads like he's proposing a merger of BTS+STEEM & dilution of the current coin supply than a snapshot to a new blockchain with no change to share allocations. His non-participation in discussion after this post doesn't help to clear up any misunderstandings his post has caused.

It's worth reading STEEM's licence (not MIT license): https://github.com/steemit/steem/blob/master/LICENSE.md
Quote
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
4. The STEEMIT_INIT_PUBLIC_KEY_STR is not changed from STM8GC13uCZbP44HzMLV6zPZGwVQ8Nt4Kji8PapsPiNq1BK153XTX, and the software is not modified in any way that would bypass the need for the coresponding private to start a new blockchain.
5. The software is not used with any forks of the Steem blockchain that are not recognized by Steemit, Inc in writing.
One cannot adopt any of the code implemented in STEEM, their license expressly forbids it.

If BM intends to take STEEM's ideas without using any of their code then that may work around their extremely prohibitive license, but I still don't see how a digg clone has any place within a decentralized exchange..

Offline xeroc

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I totally agree with svk here!
The nice thing about steem is that any improvements they make can be ported over to bts fairly easy bc its the same code base.
Let them improve and prove their stuff and then just assimilate the best parts.

Offline bitsharesbrazil

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Hi svk, where I can fallow these developments? Excited. Thanks.
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Offline svk

A straight merger will never happen, just forget about that. What could happen however is Bitshares deciding to adopt some of the features developed for Steem once they've proven that they work, like rate limited free transactions, market maker incentives and possibly the new pegged asset model.

One of the main issues Bitshares faces right now is the lack of interest around the market pegged assets; although the peg works fairly well the generation process through shorting/borrowing is failing to generate enough supply to make the assets viable. Steem has a new solution for this problem that could be ported to Bitshares if it turns out to be more successful. Bitshares currently does not have an ETH asset, perhaps a bitasset 2.0 could be implemented first using ETH, that could generate a lot of interest and would make it very easy for ETH holders to come trade on Bitshares. Anyway, we first need to see the new model in action in Steem, which will happen after the 4th of July..

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Offline bitsharesbrazil

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I think.we have too.keep going funding development whatever is th outcome, we have the.model,.we.can keep developing things with tbis model, bitshares is not cript that became lisk, bitshares is far greater n stabilished, nas a market, has a product, has a.model, has projects, n it didnt stop, that is.the point...
I believe is.important to have dan n family on board if we can reach a good deal.for everybody not a problem for me.......everything for the greatness of.bitshates the facebook of criptoworld
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 06:50:22 am by bitsharesbrazil »
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Offline okidoki

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Thanks for your comment. This clarifies it well. But in general would you say that Bitshares is in its current state independent from Cryptonomex? I mean it seems like everything is in place... even a Bitshares Android app... I do not think that developement has to be paid for anymore... look at Bitcoin, they are stagnant for the last 7 years... and no one complains...

Although I like the original interest vision for BitUSD from the beginning... would be nice to have "such a" BitUSD as an option in the system...

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

I'm afraid there is some kind of misunderstanding here.

Bytemaster never said to merge steem and bitshares together... What he has talked about is the fact that the new types of elements that have been created in steem are not compatible with the current bitshares codebase.

In order for Bitshares to adopt the improvements that have been made in what we know as Steem today.. the best way to do it would be to create basically a bitshares 3.0 .. similar to how we went from 1.0 to 2.0.. in the new network it would have the new features etc.

There is, and never will be, some weird plan to 'merge' bitshares with steem.. it is technically impossible.

Here is the thing.. the codebase that bitshares run on is Graphene and is MIT licensed which means anybody can do what they like with it... which means Bytemaster has a choice.. he can come back to Bitshares and have the community vote and then implement this Bitshares 3.0 plan that incorporates new innovations that were gained from what was done on Steem.. OR.. can create a whole new decentralized exchange and call it something else. I highly doubt that will ever happen though.

Hope this helps clarify some things.
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Offline okidoki

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I would like to know, has the Bitshares community to accept this? I have not read the license or whatever of Bitshares, I suppose that Cryptonomex has a hand on this, as I would suppose...

Offline okidoki

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The last merger of BTSX and DNS and Vote only diluted BTSX-holders.
Cryptillionaire has brought up a great point: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22517.msg293211.html#msg293211

Bytemaster, you want to merge Steem and BTS together?? Valuing Steem at the fake market cap of 30 million and depressing BTS to new low levels by talking in past tense in your article about "The DAO", and that the project has failed? So that BTS holders would get perhaps at a 5 million market cap a 20% stake in the next generation DEX?

I mean, you have to exclude this possibility, retracting your earlier statement that you see clearly the future for BTS in a merger with STEEM.

I think there are many people here who would be really not satisfied by this.