Author Topic: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!  (Read 2294 times)

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Offline mf-tzo

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Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« on: August 10, 2016, 06:07:15 pm »
Guys, I just posted that on steemit https://steemit.com/bitshares/[member=1532]mf-tzo[/member]/proposal-to-reward-bitassets-holders-with-interest

Please share your thoughts here or preferably on steemit (anything I earn from steem goes back to buying bts..I am a bts fun to the end). :)

In short the proposal is to sell a very small part of the bts reserve pool to accumulate enough for i.e. 10% interest for 1 year in the form of OPEN.xxx for the respective bit.xxx assets holdings. With very few funds from the reserve we can accomplish so much..

Interest on deposits is a necessity for our DEX especially in the current negative interest environment.. 

Offline karnal

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2016, 06:52:14 pm »
Why OPEN.xxx?

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2016, 07:46:39 pm »
[member=33020]karnal[/member]

Hi mate,
someone if not you asked same thing on steemit so I replied there. I will avoid duplicating the answers in order not to monopolize the forum but I will quote as is for that question since it is a very important question

1. Why Open.xxx?
To avoid further complications with short selling the bitassets into existence. To avoid the short selling process for the creation of the bit.xxx assets to be created using the pool reserves funds and the need to block bts collateral. I don't think that the pool reserves should be used for the bitasset creation.Users should create bitassets according to the real demand for those assets.
I think it is easier to just sell those bts for the 10% annual interest needs of the main bitassets in external exchanges that have liquidity, polo, btc38 (we can sell 9 mil bts equal to $40-$42k in those exchanges easily within a day if need be) and then convert easily those btc, cny, usd to Open.xxx assets. I say Open.xxx assets since Open.ledger supports the bts wallet. Then reward the interest in Open.xxx asset to the bit.xxx asset holders. The users can then change if they don't like the Open.xxx asset to anything they want (bit.xxx, polo.btc, fiat whatever)

........

in reality I would go as far and say that we should sell c$80k worth of bts from the pool reserve that is 20% annual interest based on the current bit.xxx assets supply. If the bitassets market cap goes to $800k we reduce the interest to 10% if they go to $1.6 mil market cap we reduce the interest to 5% and so on...
If we manage by advertising this to increase the DEX trading, people's involvement with the DEX, advertise the huge interest that bitassets holders receive, maintain the pegs which historically have been quite good and we increase the bitasset supply to a couple of millions then bts market cap will be x10 of what we see now. Hence next we can use much lesser bts from the pool to buy the Open.xxx assets to reward with huge interests the bit asset holders..

Offline zhangweis

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2016, 05:49:34 am »
If we view bts as an exchange company, then we need to make profit from market ordering like 0.1% of the order amount just like most exchanges do. We can get both bitasset and bts from market transaction which can be put in interest pool and distribute like in bts 0.x (where you get interest when you move your bitasset).
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 01:40:27 pm »
If we view bts as an exchange company, then we need to make profit from market ordering like 0.1% of the order amount just like most exchanges do. We can get both bitasset and bts from market transaction which can be put in interest pool and distribute like in bts 0.x (where you get interest when you move your bitasset).

^^ This... I am not a fan of interest.. I know some are.. but in the way it is handled in bitshares it makes no sense to just give it away unless it is something that is build. Banks pay interest on term deposits because they are making multiples on it.. in the blockchain its going nowhere and not really being put to work to provide value that can even justify that interest payment.. it's almost like a tax.

I would prefer to see something where activities that benefits the network in turn will benefit the user.

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Offline yvv

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 01:43:37 pm »
And this is not going to increase supply anyway. To increase supply, you need to incentivise shorting, not holding.

Offline tbone

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 02:35:15 pm »
And this is not going to increase supply anyway. To increase supply, you need to incentivise shorting, not holding.

[member=32211]Empirical1.2[/member] advocated for a plan to reward people shorting BitAssets into existence.  I think we would be much further along if we had listened to him. 

Offline fav

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 02:56:02 pm »
I'm all for a working interest design... wish someone would just get some shit done

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2016, 04:06:46 pm »
The interest may come from the transaction fee of the whole system? though it is negligible.
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2016, 05:17:09 pm »
Guys I think we all need to take a deep breath, a step back and reassess a couple of things if we ever want our bts investment to succeed..

The interest may come from the transaction fee of the whole system? though it is negligible.

This as you say is neglidible and doesn't make sense to increase the transaction fees of the system just so we can pay interest to bitasset holders. Transaction fees need to stay the lowest in the market and should only be as low as to keep for antispam and nothing more at least at this stage.

If we view bts as an exchange company, then we need to make profit from market ordering like 0.1% of the order amount just like most exchanges do. We can get both bitasset and bts from market transaction which can be put in interest pool and distribute like in bts 0.x (where you get interest when you move your bitasset).

If we view bts as an exchange company, then we need to make profit from market ordering like 0.1% of the order amount just like most exchanges do. We can get both bitasset and bts from market transaction which can be put in interest pool and distribute like in bts 0.x (where you get interest when you move your bitasset).

^^ This... I am not a fan of interest.. I know some are.. but in the way it is handled in bitshares it makes no sense to just give it away unless it is something that is build. Banks pay interest on term deposits because they are making multiples on it.. in the blockchain its going nowhere and not really being put to work to provide value that can even justify that interest payment.. it's almost like a tax.

I would prefer to see something where activities that benefits the network in turn will benefit the user.



I don't want to put labels on bitshares. Others see it as an exchange, others like a secure bank. We need to reward the depositors with interest. Bond market is a way or something that gives interest in the form of bts if you hold your bts in the DEX. But apparently this is something more difficult, requires more work and is something for the future. We need to do something NOW!

Let me put some numbers out: With only 25,000 bts daily from the pool we can buy daily c$115 worth of Open.btc, open.eur, open.usd, open.btc and distribute this Open.xxx assets to the holders according to their bit.xxx balance. Do you guys realise that this is an annual 10% interest on the c$400,000 total current supply of bitassets?
Don't you realize the huge marketing opportunity to advertise that people holding bit.xxx will receive 10% interest on their daily balance in the form of Open.xxx asset which is easily converted 1:1 to fiat (minus fees) or to btc or polo.btc or whatever they want?

We are talking about $115 dollars daily worth of bitshares to give 10% interest on bitasset holders!! How on earth this poses any risk for bitshares? That we have spent $40,000 worth of bitshares during a period of 1 year from the pool reserves?? Come on now...

I agree with many of you that shorters don't have incentives as well. But the reason is that currently due to low liquidity they risk their bts collateral to get margin called.

If we give 10% deposit to bitasset holders, demand for bitassets will increase, liquidity will increase, bts price will increase, shorters will benefit from the increased liquidity and increased bts price..Increase in bts price will drive back more devs to come back and do worker proposals in bts. Everyone benefits and we have created value for the system by giving back a very very small portion from the pool reserves to people that want to hold bitassets. There is no way bts is worth ever $100 mil market cap with only $400k bitassets in existence.

I don't understand why you oppose to just try this for 1 year and see what happens. And I will repeat my self. We do this with only a daily 25,000 bts budget from the pool...

By the way I don't own a single bitasset so I have nothing to personally gain from this. at least directly since indirectly all the bts holders will benefit. The way the situation is I can't find any reason to hold any bitasset or to engage my self in shorting especially since I have been margin called in the past due to low liquidity. 

Let's try this please.Someone please put a proposal with the technical know how. We have nothing to lose (ok maybe $40k worth of bts within a year from the pool) and A LOT TO GAIN!

Offline karnal

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2016, 07:58:36 am »
I think mostly everyone will agree that if smartcoins can earn interest in a way that does not imbalance anything else, then it is a no-brainer to add that to the platform.

The question is, does it really not imbalance anything else?

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2016, 10:25:23 am »
Guys I think we are over analysing things all the time and nothing is done in the end...

I propose that someone with the technical know how makes the following proposal for voting:

Daily amount from the reserve pool: 30,000 bts
Sell those bts for Open.xxxx assets and distribute 10% daily interest the next day on the previous day balance at a specific or random time.
Let's try this for 1 month and see what happens. The only risk is that we risk 900,000 from the reserve pool after one month. If the supply, liquidity or demand for bitassets hasn't improved we stop it.

for example (and on the below I assume that bitgold and bitsilver holders to receive open.usd interest)

daily budget:                          30,000                
bts/usd price                    0.0045               
usd eq. of daily budget    135.75                
                        
                        btc                     usd   cny                               eur            gold               silver   
                      47.00     125,771.00     1,681,800.00     1,712.00     8.90               642.00    
feed price  131,086.00     221.00     33.30                       247.00     294,727.00     4,453.00    
                        
Open.xxx amounts to buy to allocate interest on bit.asset holders                        
                                 Open.btc   Open.usd   Open.cny   Open.eur   Open.usd   Open.usd   total
daily interest   10%                0.0129     34.4578     460.7671     0.4690              0.0024             0.1759    
usd eq.                           7.6378     34.4578     69.4278     0.5242     3.2518     3.5441     118.8435       118.8435
                        
Remaining unspent BTS assuming no fees    3,735.58       (135.75- 118.84)   / 0.0045      

The remaining unspent bts from the daily budget to be included in next day's budget in order to cover potential increase of the supply of bitassets or decrease in bts/usd price so we can give the daily 10% interest on bitasset holders

Bitshares is an experiment and we should experiment with the less risky options available to us. I think that if we do that and we advertise it properly on the cryptocurrency communities we may achieve something that will add value on our ecosystem..
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 10:32:08 am by mf-tzo »

Offline paliboy

Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2016, 11:14:55 am »
... and distribute 10% daily interest the next day on the previous day balance at a specific or random time

You probably meant 10% yearly interest, that is what you use in your calculations.

Why 10%? Can't we achieve the same effect with 5% or 3% interest? Can you provide script that would calculate the amounts to be paid?


Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2016, 01:44:07 pm »
... and distribute 10% daily interest the next day on the previous day balance at a specific or random time

You probably meant 10% yearly interest, that is what you use in your calculations.

Why 10%? Can't we achieve the same effect with 5% or 3% interest? Can you provide script that would calculate the amounts to be paid?

Yes correct I meant 10% yearly interest. No I have no idea how to do this. My IT skills are limited to excel hence my calculations which were calculated based on feed prices from cryptofresh at the specific time when i run the numbers to give you an example. I am sure that someone can produce the script needed for something like this. If I did that in excel I assume that this should be very easy to implement with a script. People have done so much more complicated things in bitshares than that..


I think we need to create a buzz that is why I said 10%. If people indeed want to hold bitassets and bitassets supply is increased then the interest rate will be reduced according to the supply so not to exceed our daily budget and vice versa taking into account also the bts price.

So essentially assuming same bts price if the bitassets supply doubles then the interest will be 5%. If this has the negative effect (which I doubt) and bitassets supply is reduced in half then the remaining bitasset holders will receive 20% interest.

If the bts price doubles vs. the bitassets then with the 30,000 we will buy more bitassets to distribute and the bitasset holders receive 20% interest and vice versa.

So since the reality will be the combination of all the above the script needs to make all these calculations at a specific random time per day and distribute accordingly the next day.

Doesn't anyone with the know how want to step in and implement this?

Offline karnal

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Re: Proposal to reward bitassets holders with interest!
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2016, 03:19:51 pm »
10% will scream scam for anyone with enough brain cells to wonder how "fake internet monies" that propose to be worth the same as fiat currencies with <1% (and now even negative) interest rates.

How can the "real deal" give <1%, even <0%, while "this internet money" gives 10%?

What do you tell these people?