Author Topic: how about to raise block reward?  (Read 21309 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2017, 04:16:34 pm »
Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

  • A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
  • Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
  • Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
  • Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

What is this? Moonstone has launched it's own graphene chain? Hmmm...
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline abit

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
    • Abit's Hive Blog
  • BitShares: abit
  • GitHub: abitmore
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2017, 01:12:08 am »
Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

  • A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
  • Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
  • Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
  • Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

What is this? Moonstone has launched it's own graphene chain? Hmmm...
If I'm correct it's another guy used the similar name for that project.
BTS account: abit
BTS committee member: abit
BTS witness: in.abit

Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2017, 01:23:12 pm »
We should be holding such a poll using followmyvote's tech + the BTS asset, rather than a manipulatable forum poll.

I object to witnesses being paid more. If developers/witnesses wish to be paid for developing some new service, they should raise a worker proposal.

I think that witness votes should degrade over time so that witnesses have to regularly campaign for their positions (or at least acknowledge the community's existence every once in a while) & to provide new prospective witnesses the ability to be voted into power.

Offline Chronos

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2017, 04:14:27 pm »
I agree that witnesses should be paid more. They should be compensated well for the security they provide to the network.

 I voted for a doubling (3 BTS), because that's already a huge change, and we can always change it again in the future.

Offline pc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1530
    • View Profile
    • Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko?
  • BitShares: cyrano
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2017, 04:47:07 pm »
I've been running a witness node almost since the beginning of BTS-2, and I'm against increasing witness rewards at this time. The cost for running a sufficiently reliable node (or two) is covered by the rewards, even taking some hands-on time into account. I hope this will change in the future (meaning more network load), and if the BTS exchange rate does not rise along with its utilization we should talk about raising rewards, but not now.

I am, however, strongly in favour of separating the role of block producer from the role of submitting price feeds. As others have pointed out, running a reliable server requires different kinds of expertise than providing a "correct" (whatever that may be) feed.
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de

Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 05:24:47 pm »
I've been running a witness node almost since the beginning of BTS-2, and I'm against increasing witness rewards at this time. The cost for running a sufficiently reliable node (or two) is covered by the rewards, even taking some hands-on time into account. I hope this will change in the future (meaning more network load), and if the BTS exchange rate does not rise along with its utilization we should talk about raising rewards, but not now.

I am, however, strongly in favour of separating the role of block producer from the role of submitting price feeds. As others have pointed out, running a reliable server requires different kinds of expertise than providing a "correct" (whatever that may be) feed.

Thank you pc, I was beginning to think I was the only one with that perspective. I voted to increase rewards to 5BTS / block, but then I run 4 nodes. If you only run 1 I agree 1.5BTS / block is adequate. However, such a setup will be vulnerable to increased missed blocks and possibly more down time if a --replay-blockchain is ever required, which is guaranteed from time to time, if only to install a new version of the witness code. Therefore given the current nature of the code I believe running 2 nodes is a bare minimum configuration, and warrants an increase to 3BTS / block.

Also, keep in mind we're pushing the limits of a 4GB RAM vps right now, and users and use of the DEX is on the rise, so an increase now is warranted IMO.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Pheonike

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 05:33:14 pm »
I've been running a witness node almost since the beginning of BTS-2, and I'm against increasing witness rewards at this time. The cost for running a sufficiently reliable node (or two) is covered by the rewards, even taking some hands-on time into account. I hope this will change in the future (meaning more network load), and if the BTS exchange rate does not rise along with its utilization we should talk about raising rewards, but not now.

I am, however, strongly in favour of separating the role of block producer from the role of submitting price feeds. As others have pointed out, running a reliable server requires different kinds of expertise than providing a "correct" (whatever that may be) feed.

Is it assumed that running a witness is a single person job? Is there some rule that says only one person can run one?

Offline bitcrab

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1895
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: bitcrab
  • GitHub: bitcrab
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2017, 03:18:40 pm »
the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

Offline fav

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2017, 04:20:28 pm »
the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

Offline blahblah7up

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2017, 04:48:39 pm »
the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

Great question!

Offline bitcrab

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1895
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: bitcrab
  • GitHub: bitcrab
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2017, 03:11:39 am »
the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

however I haven't saw the necessity to increase trading fees.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 03:13:19 am by bitcrab »

Offline fav

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 08:44:47 am »
the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

however I haven't saw the necessity to increase trading fees.

Very interesting.

Offline Geneko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2017, 10:05:14 am »
Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

Offline bitcrab

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1895
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: bitcrab
  • GitHub: bitcrab
Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2017, 03:16:33 pm »
Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

when I wrote, the BTS supply is 2580740816(reserve pool not included), so 4BTS means 1.6% annual dilution rate.
today's total avaliable budget: 305566 BTS. in which 68961(22.6%) are paide to 3 real worker and the left is for one refund worker.
4BTS means 115200 BTS daily payment to witness.

the current competition is based on voting, it is not perfect, a smart contract sounds wonderful, but it's not easy to implement. for example, one critiria of how well the witness work is the accuracy of the price feeding, how to evaluate the accuracy of price feeding by smart contract? increasing witness payment is incentive to better witness work including more accuracy price feeding, and higher witness payment will make the proxy more strict on voting from more candidates.

for payment in BitUSD, there are already many discussion on pay BitUSD for worker proposal, but one problem is how to supply enough bitUSD. no satisfactory solution up to now. and as active witnesses is a dynamic group, the number and members of the group may change now and then, it is not a big problem to just pay in BTS.

we have done some discussion and evaluation, it is not accurate but senseful, and the conclusion is:
1. to encourage the witnesses to pay senseful more cost and effort on witness work, we need at least double the witness pay.
2. the dilution that a 4BTS witness pay bring is acceptable.
 
this may be not a perfect solution, but it is feasible, senseful and can be implemented in not long time.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 12:47:47 pm by bitcrab »

Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2017, 07:12:13 pm »
Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

when I wrote, the BTS supply is 2580740816(reserve pool not included), so 4BTS means 1.6% annual dilution rate.
today's total avaliable budget: 305566 BTS. in which 68961(22.6%) are paide to 3 real worker and the left is for one refund worker.
4BTS means 115200 BTS daily payment to witness.

the current competition is based on voting, it is not perfect, a smart contract sounds wonderful, but it's not easy and implement. for example, one critiria of how well the witness work is the accuracy of the price feeding, how to evaluate the accuracy of price feeding by smart contract? increasing witness payment is incentive to better witness work including more accuracy price feeding, and higher witness payment will make the proxy more strict on voting from more candidates.

for payment in BitUSD, there are already many discussion on pay BitUSD for worker proposal, but one problem is how to supply enough bitUSD. no satisfactory solution up to now. and as active witnesses is a dynamic group, the number and members of the group may change now and then, it is not a big problem to just pay in BTS.

we have done some discussion and evaluation, it is not accurate but senseful, and the conclusion is:
1. to encourage the witnesses to pay senseful more cost and effort on witness work, we need at least double the witness pay.
2. the dilution that a 4BTS witness pay bring is acceptable.
 
this may be not a perfect solution, but it is feasible, senseful and can be implemented in not long time.

I concur with everything you said above.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html