Author Topic: how about to raise block reward?  (Read 21305 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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how about to raise block reward?
« on: January 12, 2017, 12:41:09 pm »
with the growing of the ecosystem, the community begin to demand more on witnesses.

one thing is price feeding, while the DEX trading volume keep on growing, the price feeding become more important than before, shorters need witnesses to provide high quality price feeding service to avoid man made margin call or force settlement transactions.

and to keep the growing network healthy, there are also requirements for witness to imporve hardware.

however, as [member=34707]rnglab[/member] has summarized at https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23607.msg301580.html#msg301580, comparing to the demand to witnesses, witnesses is at a very low profit and do not have enough incentive to upgrade their service, we even can see some witnesses have forgotten their witness nodes.

these are reluctant, a blockchain platform should depend not only on the enthusiasm of volunteers, but also on some business model that can guarntee the basic service to continue, and to attract new comers, we do not like the energy wasting mining of Bitcoin, but at the business model side it is effective to keep the ecosystem growing, we can learn something from the mining model of Bitcoin. 

so now I propose to raise the block reward, currently the reward is 1.5BTS/block, now three options are given: 3BTS/block, 5BTS/block, 8BTS/block. each correspond to an annual dilution ratio of 1.22%, 2.04%, 3.22%, completely acceptable.

what we can forcast is, after the block reward rise, witnesses will more positively upgrade their hardware and service, more new comers will join the witnesses group and we will have a bigger node pool to choose the best witnesses. and I believe some interesting thing will happen.

I have proposed this in China community, up to now the response is mainly positive. now I propose here, hope everyone can express your opinion on this, I believe we now need to seriously consider and evaluate this proposal.

please also consider that the system has daily budget (witness+worker), today the budget is 349297 BTS, which means 12 BTS/block if they are totally paid to witnesses, and the daily budget is dynamic and shrinking if I am correct.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 03:29:55 pm by bitcrab »

Offline JonnyB

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2017, 12:55:29 pm »
I agree.

Accurate price feeds are essential to bitshares and witnesses are not paid enough. Double it to at least 3bts per block
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 01:38:06 pm »
I vote for steem like witness payouts to attract steem witnesses.

For several months they have developed a very strong witness following. Very few have ventured into bitshares in some part due to the lack of incentives to do so. Many witneses there are skilled developers and have contributed significant apps to the steem in order to win their approval.

I believe if rewards were high we would see the likes of [member=18133]arhag[/member] come back.. and other new witnesses in steem who could take some of what they have done with steem and reapply it to bitshares.

I am quite confident this could be a significant turnaround.. it does however require more communication from the Chinese. If it is an uphill battle to gain votes from the chinese proxies who control the majority of voting power then they could be turned off.

Aside from attracting new blood, this provides considerable funds to consider incorporating paid price feed data from various sources. So with this I also think it raises the bar for witnesses in bitshares to improve on what they provide. This was what I talked about recently when there was discussion surrounding the feed data.

Raise the standards for bitshares, we raise the quality and increase our value prop.

So with that, as a Committee member, at present I am supporting a raise of 8BTS per /block payout for these reasons given primarily. If you wish to also support these types of reasons, then set your vote for Committee member to Bunkerchainlabs-com.

If the increase is only a doubling or a half measure, I don't believe we will see any significant changes at all. You can't catch your breath only making half effort from being underwater. We either go all the way to effect results or not get above the water at all.

This is my current thinking on the matter. I am open to listening to others take on this and to be swayed otherwise to be shown some other amount being able to breath air into bitshares.
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2017, 01:54:37 pm »
I vote for steem like witness payouts to attract steem witnesses.

For several months they have developed a very strong witness following. Very few have ventured into bitshares in some part due to the lack of incentives to do so. Many witneses there are skilled developers and have contributed significant apps to the steem in order to win their approval.

I believe if rewards were high we would see the likes of [member=18133]arhag[/member] come back.. and other new witnesses in steem who could take some of what they have done with steem and reapply it to bitshares.

I am quite confident this could be a significant turnaround.. it does however require more communication from the Chinese. If it is an uphill battle to gain votes from the chinese proxies who control the majority of voting power then they could be turned off.

Aside from attracting new blood, this provides considerable funds to consider incorporating paid price feed data from various sources. So with this I also think it raises the bar for witnesses in bitshares to improve on what they provide. This was what I talked about recently when there was discussion surrounding the feed data.

Raise the standards for bitshares, we raise the quality and increase our value prop.

So with that, as a Committee member, at present I am supporting a raise of 8BTS per /block payout for these reasons given primarily. If you wish to also support these types of reasons, then set your vote for Committee member to Bunkerchainlabs-com.

If the increase is only a doubling or a half measure, I don't believe we will see any significant changes at all. You can't catch your breath only making half effort from being underwater. We either go all the way to effect results or not get above the water at all.

This is my current thinking on the matter. I am open to listening to others take on this and to be swayed otherwise to be shown some other amount being able to breath air into bitshares.

interesting, DPOS means the one that contribute more will be more easily voted, this will effectively encourage contribution.
I like the word "Raise the standards for bitshares, we raise the quality and increase our value prop."

Offline abit

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 02:22:58 pm »
I tend to disagree to increase witness pay, on the opposite, perhaps it's better to decrease it. Witnesses are investing into the system, they're not pure employees.

In many cases higher wage doesn't bring higher performance.

We need a HR department to review every employee's performance, including witnesses' and workers' and perhaps committee members', say, give them a basic wage, then a bonus depending on their performance.
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Offline abit

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2017, 02:28:11 pm »
By the way, currently total budget is about 350K BTS per day, or say 12 BTS per block. Giving more to witnesses means less budget for workers, because witness pay has higher priority.
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 02:29:46 pm »
I tend to disagree to increase witness pay, on the opposite, perhaps it's better to decrease it. Witnesses are investing into the system, they're not pure employees.

In many cases higher wage doesn't bring higher performance.

We need a HR department to review every employee's performance, including witnesses' and workers' and perhaps committee members', say, give them a basic wage, then a bonus depending on their performance.

An HR department type setup is something I have been encouraging for a while. Put the hiring, firing, management of the workers in their hands so that real measures can be done, and greater accountability.

I think the pay pressure is going to increase the need for accountability.. I think there will be less tolerance for 'lazy witnesses' after this while at the same time heating up the competition. If the objective is to get new blood, better feed data, and make being a witness something that people are striving to be best at because there is a clear reward for it, then this will help accomplish that. I think the change in the rate is going to change the culture significantly.
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 03:24:38 pm »
I tend to disagree to increase witness pay, on the opposite, perhaps it's better to decrease it. Witnesses are investing into the system, they're not pure employees.

In many cases higher wage doesn't bring higher performance.

We need a HR department to review every employee's performance, including witnesses' and workers' and perhaps committee members', say, give them a basic wage, then a bonus depending on their performance.

An HR department type setup is something I have been encouraging for a while. Put the hiring, firing, management of the workers in their hands so that real measures can be done, and greater accountability.

I think the pay pressure is going to increase the need for accountability.. I think there will be less tolerance for 'lazy witnesses' after this while at the same time heating up the competition. If the objective is to get new blood, better feed data, and make being a witness something that people are striving to be best at because there is a clear reward for it, then this will help accomplish that. I think the change in the rate is going to change the culture significantly.

I worry that introducing HR may introduce some other issues, this is a DAC, there are high infomaiton asymmetry and no solid company rules, so there is unignorable risk for collusion.

raising block reward may also lead to some interesting results other than better witness service.  in my imagination,  witness will mean competence+reputation+responsibility+profit, however, people need to compete for a witness position. and shareholders can fire the witness at any time if they judge he does not deserve, this machanism can work together with worker proposal as ways to encourage contributors.

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 03:13:44 pm »
I agree that the wage of witness now is too low, but I suggest that the income should be adjusted automatically according to the current network load, say"work more, get more".
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2017, 04:13:27 pm »
I agree that the wage of witness now is too low, but I suggest that the income should be adjusted automatically according to the current network load, say"work more, get more".

step by step, we may need to use some criteria other than load - maybe mainly how well it feed price -  to evaluate one witness' performance, it's not easy to do this automatically, we may need to rely on the voting to keep the witnesses who do job well active.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2017, 09:29:04 pm »
I agree that the wage of witness now is too low, but I suggest that the income should be adjusted automatically according to the current network load, say"work more, get more".

This would be very bad. Very easy to setup bots that would artificially flood the network to increase rewards. The incentive to do so is aligned and it could be completely anonymous.

We already have the committee capable of making adjustments as needed. At present that is our most efficient means to adjust reward rates.
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Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 05:14:41 am »
I agree with the sentiments of the OP, and DSN has made some very good points too.

I'm seeing the increase in traffic, and the demand for better / more reliable feeds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all of us witnesses are relying on free feed data sources. Perhaps witnesses need to consider subscribing to paid services for feed data. I have no idea what the cost of that would be, but one thing's for sure we've seen much unreliability of various sources like yahoo and yunbi. We also need to be sensitive to what the expectations of the Chinese community are regarding feed prices and sources.

Using paid services for feed data does come with some risk however. It's important to make sure we maintain as much diversity of sources as we can, and not be at the mercy of a centralized source to provide price data.

We in the west think in terms of "free market competition" as a means of keeping different sources accurate. I'm not sure how well that works in the Chinese market or how much influence their government has in price accuracy. It may be similar to our situation with the precious metals markets here in the US, as we know how manipulated they are as well. Precious metals prices here don't really reflect what the free market wants them to be, hence many refuse to sell at such artificially low prices.

Is that the same in China, or are prices closer to buyers and sellers expectations?

I'll say this for the record: if witness pay is increased, even if only by 2X I will put the entire increase into server upgrades and possibly a paid feed source. I also recognize I need to take on more python coding if nothing more than to stay on top of this feed issue and lessen my dependence on wackou's bts tools. They're great, but he has his hands full with family and steem, and publishing and documenting his changes to his tools aren't always a priority which puts me at a disadvantage. I need to be more proactive about that.

I also see the interest and demand for the BitShares DEX on the rise. I've been waiting for such signs. Activity has stagnated, mostly due to the excitement of steem's arrival. Now that is smoothing out and with the political pressure increasing on the Chinese front along with the global push to rid the planet of cash,  we need to be more attentive to changes in demand on the DEX.

Another thing we all need to be aware of is that once PeerPlays launches there will be even more demand for capable witnesses which will increase competition for talent. I suspect PP witness roles will not only be more demanding but will also be more lucrative. I am very anxious to finally learn the details so I can make a decision on whether to put my hat in the ring on PeerPlays. I only hope we're given adequate time from when the info is provided to when PP wants to launch. I HATE last minute rush jobs.
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Offline Chris4210

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 11:33:36 am »
Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

  • A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
  • Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
  • Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
  • Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 11:56:53 am »
Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

  • A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
  • Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
  • Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
  • Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

as a proxy I hope the witnesses can
1.generate blocks stably, this is basic task.
2.feed price, at least for BitCNY and BitUSD.
3.feed price with high quality, for example, the problem described at https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23607.0.html should be avoided

if the block pay can be increased, I will regard the witnesses that could not fulfill above standard as "lazy" or "not qualified" and unvote.

Offline Pheonike

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 03:58:34 pm »
I agree with raising the pay. It will encourage witnesses to be more attune to what is needed. It also will increase competition by forcing witnesses to bring more skills to the table. Having witnesses with higher technical skills is win and can take some of burden off worker program which seems we can't get right.  We have a functioning worker program with witnesses, just incentives it more. People who do the bare minimum will start being voted out.

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