Author Topic: [Committee Member] - johnr's proposal to join the BitShares Committee  (Read 18915 times)

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Offline xeroc

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1) I aggree that trading fees might be the easierst to "earn" some solid money. The only hesitation that comes to my mind is the risk of users going somewhere else (including centralized exchanges). We are not in the position of risking those few traders over trading fee. Also trading is only one aspect of the blockchain

2) I would very much rather change the network fee percentage. Although I am biased here as the operator of BitShares Europe which earns its income there, I do belive that a) the blockchain should benefit more from the transactions fees and b) changing this very publicly might actually bring some people to look into the referral program that didn't know about it already. So, I personally think we could as well raise it to 50%

Offline JohnR

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Clockwork,

The equivalent result could be had by apportioning some of the 0.1% variable fee from committee trading to reserve pool.  I agree that network fees are very low.  At the same time I would like to see trading across many assets and not concentrated in a few UIA gateways.  My concern is crowding out some of the more obscure/low volume tokens when we are already charging more than 10x the network fee on a couple trading pairs.  Does that make sense?

If you disagree, or think that's too complex I understand.  It sits a little strange with me to debate raising network fees when net fees are already rather high on our most prized trading pairs.

Regarding 2, yes I know some accounts have a lot at stake there so I would like to see a community discussion.

Offline clockwork

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1) Changing network fess on SPECIFIC assets would require a HF (and not sure if even possible)

Network fees are way too low across the board.. Might as well increase them overall like I suggest.

2) Would be ideal but unsure how the community will react.

Interesting to note your thoughts on USD/CNY market fees. Demand for those assets is indeed exceptionally high (which is the reasoning behind the fees + operation worker in the first place)

Offline JohnR

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I would like to build on the solid research already published by Clockwork (https://steemit.com/bitshares/@clockwork/bitshares-fees-the-fee-schedule-and-dex-profitability) and Abit (https://steemit.com/bitshares/@abit/bitshares-block-chain-historical-data-search-analysis-and-visualization

I was interested with Clockwork’s observation that the BitShares reserve pool is running at a chronic deficit.  So far as the community desires fiscal balance and sustainability, it’s clear we must decrease expenses (witness/worker proposals) or increase income (revenue from fees).  Decreasing expenses significantly is short-sighted because BitShares has a lot of growth ahead and doing so would be akin to cutting the legs from under ourselves.  So naturally we should have a conversation about increasing network operations and or the fees associated with those operations.

I am against raising networks across the board before considering how the bitUSD/CNY variable fee can be used to support the health of the network (witness/worker proposals).  As shown below, fees are already rather high, even by centralized exchange standards.  For some of the more popular trading pairs, users face fees over 0.3% in total.  With only a small fraction of that actually going to support the core infrastructure of the platform.

Fees in context:
Hypothetical fees incurred on 100 bitUSD round-trip trade for BTC and back         
              BTS Network Fee  bitUSD Variable Fee     Private Gateway Fee
OpenLedger   0.01156           $0.10                  $0.20
GDEX            0.01156           $0.10                  $0.10
RuDex           0.01156           $0.10                  $0.05


The private gateway fees are off the table for this discussion.  What is immediately noticeable is how much greater the bitUSD variable fee is than the network fee.  Of course, the difference is less on smaller orders and greater on larger orders.  Still, considering bitUSD/CNY have shown robust trading activity this is a data point that the market can bear significantly higher fees than the flat network fee.

When the bitUSD/bitCNY variable fees were originally introduced I was against them.  Notwithstanding the results of the liquidity market operations (the explicit intention of the additional fee) I have come around to realize a much bigger point.  The demand for trading bitUSD has proven rather inelastic with respect to the transaction fees. 

Elasticity is a short-hand economics term meaning how much market participants will alter their behavior in response to a given change.  E.g. alcohol and cigarette taxes are considered the most efficient taxes because they do not alter behavior significantly – people who smoke will likely continue to smoke whether the cost of a pack amounts to two USD or three.  The upshot here is that bitUSD is a unique token and the market demand for trading remains robust despite the increased fee.  If we want to increase the reserve pool, we should consider tapping some of the current fees levied on bitUSD/CNY or increasing network fees slightly on those assets alone.

A second observation is the 20/80% referral vesting mechanism.  Even a strong increase in network activity/revenue will have a muted effect so long as only 1/5 of the revenues are actually returning to the reserve pool.  I understand the original reasoning for such lucrative referral structures.  I also think it’s worth having a discussion whether this structure has yielded the results the community feels is worthy of such a high price to pay.  This is the most immediate way to increase the force multiplier of network activity.  At the same time I recognize this may be a sensitive topic because people may have planned according to this current 20/80 program.

So my calls for discussion are:
1) What do you think of augmenting the fee structure on bitCNY/USD to increase the flow to the reserve pool from the trading of those assets? 
2) What do you think of slightly modifying the ratio between referrer vesting and reserve pool income?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 03:27:36 pm by JohnR »

Offline JohnR

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Thank you abit.  That means a great deal coming from such a public and respected individual as yourself.

Offline abit

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Offline JohnR

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Honored to have your feedback and support xeroc, clockwork, and sschiessl

I appreciate the important role that both proxies and the committee play in the BTS ecosystem.  Having many proxies representing diverse factions of holders increases the decentralization of power as well as improving voting participation and efficiency.  I see the logic in recommending to become a proxy.  As you know, the proxies interaction with the governance protocol is only affirmative at this time.  Proxy can add their vote or remove their vote if they already support.  If the proxy had more ability to express both affirmative and negative votes I would reconsider campaigning as a proxy.

I prefer an opportunity to make a direct contribution on technical governance.  Rolling up the sleeves to measure and modify efficient fee structures on DEX is the kind of nerdy activity I am looking for.  I will study the economic state of the native DEX and share all conclusions and recommendations   

I do not mind saying that I have a strong preference for smartcoins and believe fees should encourage their prosperity and fecundity.  I look forward to joining your discussions about details like network fees.  And I am optimistic about the future of BitShares and look forward to working the great team of decentralized and talented people in this governance community.

Offline sschiessl

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Offline clockwork

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Voted,

as per previous responses, proxy is a better way to make a difference at this point but also agree with xeroc.

Offline xeroc

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much appreciated, but to destroy your illusion: committee is mostly a janitor job. there's no prestige or any other bonus you'll get from it.

I would rather see you becoming a proxy, trying to get influence. influence is where you can make an impact, not the committee, my opinion of course.
This.
There's not much prestige to get as a committee member and it is mostly work and no pay (at all)
Still, I do believe some more business mind is needed in the committee and once the number chrunching thru kibana is done and we get some statistics, we can
surely need someone with experience in economics. I am willing to approve this proposal to also get some freshness into the committee.

Offline Digital Lucifer

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John, after this discussion and after I've seen you are on-chain Committee member to be voted, i have nothing else to say, except:

Me, not as any 4profit or non-profit organization/company gave you my vote (with my account steem-not) to become an Active Committee Member.

And be careful if you get upvoted... how easy is to get some, its more easy to lose all ;)

All the best wishes and good luck in this election!

Cheers,

DL.
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Offline JohnR

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Fav, a valuable opinion at that.  Thank you for the perspective.

Offline fav

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Just a quick reality check: how do you imagine the work in committee and what tasks do you think they need to perform?

Fav,

I will be completely honest with you.  I am not the most experienced person around the BitShares blockchain.  I was not around for AngelShares or the genesis block.  As I said in the OP, I have been learning since I joined BitShares last summer.  So when I imagine work on the Committee, I imagine just that: a lot of work learning from the more senior members.

I am aware that this is not paid position. I also am aware that I know little about committee work from the backend/blockchain side.  I believe that I do have knowledge to help people such as Clockwork and all of the Committee members to improve stability of the blockchain, fees, and reserve pool.  Joining the Committee is not just a position; to me it is about being a good steward for the blockchain on behalf of the people who use it everyday.

I am just a humble guy from Michigan.  But I found some great people in this community.  I will do whatever is asked of me in order to contribute value to this community.

If you would like to speak more in-depth about a specific concrete issue (e.g. network fees on MPAs) I would be happy to do that in another thread.

much appreciated, but to destroy your illusion: committee is mostly a janitor job. there's no prestige or any other bonus you'll get from it.

I would rather see you becoming a proxy, trying to get influence. influence is where you can make an impact, not the committee, my opinion of course.

Offline JohnR

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Just a quick reality check: how do you imagine the work in committee and what tasks do you think they need to perform?

Fav,

I will be completely honest with you.  I am not the most experienced person around the BitShares blockchain.  I was not around for AngelShares or the genesis block.  As I said in the OP, I have been learning since I joined BitShares last summer.  So when I imagine work on the Committee, I imagine just that: a lot of work learning from the more senior members.

I am aware that this is not paid position. I also am aware that I know little about committee work from the backend/blockchain side.  I believe that I do have knowledge to help people such as Clockwork and all of the Committee members to improve stability of the blockchain, fees, and reserve pool.  Joining the Committee is not just a position; to me it is about being a good steward for the blockchain on behalf of the people who use it everyday.

I am just a humble guy from Michigan.  But I found some great people in this community.  I will do whatever is asked of me in order to contribute value to this community.

If you would like to speak more in-depth about a specific concrete issue (e.g. network fees on MPAs) I would be happy to do that in another thread.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 02:41:45 pm by JohnR »

Offline Digital Lucifer

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As a reminder: the Committee is approved by stakeholders and formally tasked with setting policy for the BitShares blockchain including:

Transaction and trading fees;
Blockchain parameters, such as block size, block interval; &
Referral and vesting parameters such as cash back percentage and vesting periods.


re Fav and seems like its perfect set of tasks for someone with B.A. in Economics.

Yep, that's the paper description.

I get your point on this one... :) Lets see what Candidate will answer to Active Member of Committee.
Milos (DL) Preocanin
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