Author Topic: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model  (Read 4207 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2018, 03:22:35 am »
the max price algorithm is for "BTS price", so if apply, should be applied to ALL smart coins. otherwise there should be enough gap (for price feed) between CNY and other smart coins. 

if apply to CNY only, will make bitCNY much cheaper according to real currencies.

feed price is not necessarily the trading price in DEX.

take one extreme example, while the price is 1CNY, in some exchange the price suddenly go up to 1.2 and make the feed price change to 1.2, what will happen?

traders will arbitrage immediately and make the price down.

if one exchange is separated with other exchanges and traders cannot arbitrage with it, it should be removed from the feeding price source.

this suggestion is to avoid the scenario that shorters can manipulate the price easily, not to make the feed price false, at least, if the price in DEX is the highest in all the markets, it, not the lower price in centralized exchagne, should be adopted as the feed price. 



Offline xeroc

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2018, 08:59:42 am »
Interesting - for sure.
Also sure (at least to me) is that price feeds need to grow and be taken more seriously as markets mature. Witnesses need to take their responsibility serious and keep up with market price.

We had quite some discussion also with @alt/@bazozi about what a "fair" price for CNY/USD/BTS actually is and I do not think it is possible to come to a *single* price that reflects the BTS price
properly taking into account all the markets and market sentiments in different countries. That is why markets require arbitrators - yet some markets have an offset even on centralized exchanges.

We need to start discussing whether bitCNY is supposed to be worth 1CNY given that it is a digital representative that can be spend easily around the globe, that comes with a 'benefit' over regular fiat CNY (same for USD etc...)
Additionaly, I refrain from acting *quickly* out of markets behaving unexpected. The movements in the last days, shouldn't be take as arguments to modify the smart coin parameters (feeds).
There is a much bigger picture to bitCNY and that is long-term predictability.

Those that sold their BTS on CEX to buy from margin calls on another exchange (DEX) is *business as usual*. Could have well been caused by arbitrators instead of feed producers.

That said, I am not totally against experimentation - but I would rather see small steps and proper discussion before implementation.
Do we understand all the implications of "raising" the price "artificially"?
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2018, 09:38:03 am »
Interesting - for sure.
Also sure (at least to me) is that price feeds need to grow and be taken more seriously as markets mature. Witnesses need to take their responsibility serious and keep up with market price.

We had quite some discussion also with @alt/@bazozi about what a "fair" price for CNY/USD/BTS actually is and I do not think it is possible to come to a *single* price that reflects the BTS price
properly taking into account all the markets and market sentiments in different countries. That is why markets require arbitrators - yet some markets have an offset even on centralized exchanges.

We need to start discussing whether bitCNY is supposed to be worth 1CNY given that it is a digital representative that can be spend easily around the globe, that comes with a 'benefit' over regular fiat CNY (same for USD etc...)
Additionaly, I refrain from acting *quickly* out of markets behaving unexpected. The movements in the last days, shouldn't be take as arguments to modify the smart coin parameters (feeds).
There is a much bigger picture to bitCNY and that is long-term predictability.

Those that sold their BTS on CEX to buy from margin calls on another exchange (DEX) is *business as usual*. Could have well been caused by arbitrators instead of feed producers.

That said, I am not totally against experimentation - but I would rather see small steps and proper discussion before implementation.
Do we understand all the implications of "raising" the price "artificially"?

yesterday is not the first time that we experience such kind of tragedy,  and I don't think "sell BTS in CEX and then buy from the margin called positions" can be regarded as "usual business". the point is, the margin call is created by the selling activity in CEX, this is exploitation with clear purpose, not usual arbitration.

from the perspective of Bitshares ecosystem, it is needed to update the rule to remove the chance for such kind of exploitation by shorting, otherwise, Bitshares will never grow up or be able to provide amazing smartcoin services.

does the current BTS price, 0.87 CNY reflect the real value of BTS? I don't think so, it is just the result of one exploitation, if the rules can be optimized to fix the flaw, BTS can stand in another level.

Online Thul3

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2018, 09:50:15 am »
Quote
if the price in DEX is the highest in all the markets, it, not the lower price in centralized exchagne, should be adopted as the feed price

So you would strengthen your buy wall on DEX ?Am i right ?


Quote
does the current BTS price, 0.87 CNY reflect the real value of BTS?

Does the majority of prices of coins currently reflect the value of the coin ?I doubt so

Quote
I don't think so, it is just the result of one exploitation

How come you think its based on one exploitation?
Even if it would be based on one exploitation wouldn't it be fixed if these people would just adjust their CR correctly to not cause such an exploitation ?

Offline xeroc

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2018, 09:50:20 am »
But, price feeds are supposed to be volumen weighted.

An alternative solution to 'raising' the price would be to use a moving average for the price feeds so that CEX markets can recover and that would have less of an impact on the feed price.

That would on the one hand side result in the feed price having more inertia and behave more sluggish, and on the other hand result in margin calls to be triggered "later".
This way, temporary dips in the CEX markets would not result in the feed price moving as much. However, margin calls are then also coming later, but then would come more
heavy to the price feeds.

Either way, I still think we should rather make feed prices reflect the price of BTS more fairly than to artifically tune it to our liking.
One way of doing so would be to have BTS listed on more exchanges and do our best to increase volumen on *any exchange* (including the DEX). The internal trading price could be fed back (volume weighted) into the price feed calculation as well.

Again, the big question to ask ourselves is "what is a fair price". And I do not think that there is an easy answer to that. we can only try make it more obvious what the "market thinks" a "fair price" would be.

IMHO
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Offline ebit

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 10:10:41 am »
We need more cheaper bitcny in China exchange.

Online Thul3

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2018, 10:22:02 am »
there is a bigger short of bitUSD than bitcny

Offline paliboy

Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2018, 10:32:02 am »
Quote
I don't think so, it is just the result of one exploitation

How come you think its based on one exploitation?
Even if it would be based on one exploitation wouldn't it be fixed if these people would just adjust their CR correctly to not cause such an exploitation ?

I cannot believe that the current price of BTS is a result of just a one-time exploitation. The best way how to prevent manipulation is to make it very expensive by providing value to customers. In this case it could be achieved by updating debt positions to high enough CR.

Also sure (at least to me) is that price feeds need to grow and be taken more seriously as markets mature. Witnesses need to take their responsibility serious and keep up with market price.

...

Additionaly, I refrain from acting *quickly* out of markets behaving unexpected. The movements in the last days, shouldn't be take as arguments to modify the smart coin parameters (feeds).
There is a much bigger picture to bitCNY and that is long-term predictability.

Those that sold their BTS on CEX to buy from margin calls on another exchange (DEX) is *business as usual*. Could have well been caused by arbitrators instead of feed producers.

That said, I am not totally against experimentation - but I would rather see small steps and proper discussion before implementation.
Do we understand all the implications of "raising" the price "artificially"?

I completely agree - experiments are important but need to be discussed properly and transparently.

But, price feeds are supposed to be volumen weighted.

...
One way of doing so would be to have BTS listed on more exchanges and do our best to increase volumen on *any exchange* (including the DEX). The internal trading price could be fed back (volume weighted) into the price feed calculation as well.

I agree, I see no reason why not to include volume-weighted DEX price into feed.


Offline Customminer

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2018, 10:44:47 am »
I think this is a problem that price feed scripts should address, rather than proposing to somehow change from median(price feeds) to max(price feeds) within the bitshares core.

If price feed publisher's scripts are overly reliant on BTC:BTS prices then they should be upgraded to sample multiple exchanges, accounting for trading volume (flagging suspected centralized manipulation) and sampling from many more alternative trading pairs such as USDT, ETH, mutliple internal bitshares market references (feed|market)..

With Max, if a single price feed publisher publishes 1000000 (or some other very high feed) then it would cause global settlement, where as median price feed would have been more secure from such an outlier price feed.
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Offline binggo

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2018, 10:48:15 am »
support.

The feed price need "the highest one", but still need the feed price of the Centralized Exchange and need the witnesses get the right feed price from the magicwallet.

The volume-weighted DEX price into feed is not the key point, everyone can find the reason from the Centralized Exchange.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:18:33 am by binggo »

Online Thul3

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2018, 11:49:42 am »
Quote
I cannot believe that the current price of BTS is a result of just a one-time exploitation. The best way how to prevent manipulation is to make it very expensive by providing value to customers. In this case it could be achieved by updating debt positions to high enough CR.

Fully agree on that

Quote
I completely agree - experiments are important but need to be discussed properly and transparently.

Also fully agree on that

Quote
I agree, I see no reason why not to include volume-weighted DEX price into feed.

There it depends on the weight of DEX price on price feeds.
As we know DEX is going to keep creating heavy buy walls which have nothing to do with free market trading but with interference.
So DEX needs a control mechanism to make it impossible to massivly manipulate the BTS price up or down using the RP funds and buy walls.
Last buy walls were eaten thanks to the price feed mechanism which worked perfectly against a try of market manipulation.

Quote
The movements in the last days, shouldn't be take as arguments to modify the smart coin parameters (feeds).

Agree


Quote
Those that sold their BTS on CEX to buy from margin calls on another exchange (DEX) is *business as usual*. Could have well been caused by arbitrators instead of feed producers.

Agree

Quote
But, price feeds are supposed to be volumen weighted.

Normaly i would agree on that if there would be no internal interference on DEX like massiv unnatural buy walls.
In my opinion it would use/abuse the high volume on DEX to increase the power of buy walls creating not an adequate price on current market conditions

Quote
and I don't think "sell BTS in CEX and then buy from the margin called positions" can be regarded as "usual business"

why not ?If you would update your CR properly there would be no issue.
Its also a great weapon against your try to create a fake price protecting your margin calls using community funds.

Quote
it is needed to update the rule to remove the chance for such kind of exploitation by shorting, otherwise, Bitshares will never grow up or be able to provide amazing smartcoin services.

Why do you transfer your own responsability of an adequate CR to shorteners making profit on people who get margin calls ?
Bitshares ecosystem is created this way so people get a benefit buying margin called assets by getting it up to 10% cheaper.

The fault is clearly at the person who gets margin called and not because of price feeds or shorteners.


Quote
The feed price need "the highest one",

Why don't you say it directly that feed price is going to be dictated from DEX ?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:57:16 am by Thul3 »

Offline binggo

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2018, 11:57:13 am »

Quote
Why don't you say it directly that feed price is going to be dictated from DEX ?

you know nothing and did not want to find the root problem, just shouting again and again like a boy , no need discuss with you.

Online Thul3

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2018, 11:58:20 am »
Still you didn't answered why you don't say it directly that DEX is going to dictate the price feed ?
Why do you use the term "highest one" ?

Name it by the name DEX one.

Offline clockwork

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2018, 12:01:17 pm »
I think this is a problem that price feed scripts should address, rather than proposing to somehow change from median(price feeds) to max(price feeds) within the bitshares core.

If price feed publisher's scripts are overly reliant on BTC:BTS prices then they should be upgraded to sample multiple exchanges, accounting for trading volume (flagging suspected centralized manipulation) and sampling from many more alternative trading pairs such as USDT, ETH, mutliple internal bitshares market references (feed|market)..

With Max, if a single price feed publisher publishes 1000000 (or some other very high feed) then it would cause global settlement, where as median price feed would have been more secure from such an outlier price feed.

Suggestion was not for core to use MAX of price feeds...core would still use median...suggestion was for individual pricefeeds to take the max between CEXs and DEX...

Offline xeroc

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Re: suggestion to witnesses on "the highest one" CNY price feeding model
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2018, 12:07:54 pm »
Suggestion was not for core to use MAX of price feeds...core would still use median...suggestion was for individual pricefeeds to take the max between CEXs and DEX...
The more I think about, the more merits I can find in this approach. Still, I do not think we can weight DEX and CEX equally, we should stick with *VOLUME* and than it is no different than
considering the DEX as much an exchange as any other too, from point of view of the feed produer
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