Author Topic: Is it a good idea to lower MSSR of bitCNY from 1.1 to 1.05 or even lower?  (Read 4157 times)

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Offline lovegan007

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投一票 YES,支持
必须支持,这样以后暴仓溢价在5%左右了,以前需要10%暴仓保护是因为怕黑天鹅,担心锚定问题。而现在有了新功能暴仓目标价后,已经远离了黑天鹅了,本次大熊市下跌只达到了171%,所以相当安全的了,经过该次大暴跌下跌测试后,已经反映出来了各种问题,所以设5%是合理的,能跟得上其它的修改变化,让BTS更合理的成长,本人很支持BTS,对BTS又爱又恨,虽然上涨的时候它涨得极少,下跌的时候跌得最多,但始终对BTS持有好感,本次大跌本人在一块以下加仓了104.7万元钱的BTS,注意是加仓而已,我原有的仓位的币也并没有清仓,以前上到6块也没有清仓,想想是不是很傻X啊!没办法的,熊市如此,这个怪不得谁的,幸好买的还是BTS,如果买的是ACT CDC BTN BCX GRAM ......这类的估计都快归零了。我本人不贪多,只玩老币玩有项目有应用落地的币,有创新有发展的币,BTS不会死,永远也不会死,只是它的发展需要的路子还很长很长,我还带动了我身边的一些朋友加入了鼓鼓钱包玩币,身边的朋友也充了不少钱,基本都过百万的了,有的朋友还套在3块钱,他们都是中长线,这段时间他们见我加仓了他们也在加仓位。我始终相信下次牛市就是现价10倍起步了。当年我也 是早期参与 BTS的用户,当年我持有的BTS还是2.5分钱的,但最终没能坚持持有下去,后悔万分。也许是我太心急了。
有许多人不同意修改5% 暴仓价,极大可能原因是这类人是靠囤BITCNY 发财的人,靠炒BITCNY收益的人,靠暴仓做空捡便宜货的人,靠恶意砸盘吃10%差价黄单的人,此类人在BITCNY 溢价为0%的时候就准备着了大量的BITCNY,当熊市时,BTC下跌时,配合做空砸盘,并且把10%的溢价砸出来后,再慢慢套现,赚那10%。一年有十来次10%出现,做空者的本金就翻倍了。
其次是鼓鼓承兑商也出现了10%的溢价,普通用户不知道外盘多少价,也不懂计算这溢价的关系,一般用户都比较难接受那10%的手续费,这样就严重的影响了入金量,对BTS的内盘发展不利。所以投票修改为5%是大多数人都能 接受的溢价和手续费,另一方 面也能增加抵押量,有暴仓目标价的功能设置了后,恶意暴仓贴线抵押也不会造成太负面的影响了。

Offline MrFrismint

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Thanks for the explanation @bitcrab. Sounds like a possible try out to be done.

Offline xeroc

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FFS bitcrab, I thought BitShares was supposed to be decentralised.
You adjust all the parameters to suit your whale positions.
you run the open market operations (a major conflict of interest.)
you got the committee to change force settlement on BitCNY to 5%(supposedly temporarily) when all other bitassets are 1%
now you want to change MSSR for your own ends.
lets just rename it Crabshares
@JonnyB, it is a little unfair to claim he is changing anything. If at all, it is the committee that has the power to modify parameters. That includes more than just bitcrab.
In the forums, we should keep a friendly environment to proposals and learn from discussions.
@bitcrab merely proposed a change to get things started with discussions.

Have you been around here when Dan Larimer proposed to have only 7 block producers? Same thing: A controversial proposal

All of these potential changes should be considered for all bit assets.  No reason for CYN to be different, this is more confusing for users.
I need to disagree here, bitCNY has much more liquidity than any of the other assets. Disconnecting its parameters from others makes sense IMHO.



With respect to the actual proposal, I think it is worth exeperimenting with the MSSR for bitCNY (only bitCNY!) given the increased volume there (we had over 100M BTS volume there yesterday).
We've known from the beginning that eventually some bitassets will be more prominent than others, and bitCNY certainly went through the charts compared to others. It should be allowed to have
a different set of parameters *AS LONG* as we let all market participants know about those changes before they get implemented.

To the change of MSSR, I believe it makes sense for CNY which has quite some liquidity near the spread. Lowering the MSSR might bring the premium of CNY down in case of BTS price decline.
However, it also reduces the potential profits for those that shortsell into the margin calls (because their profit is less then).

The other concern I have is the use of OMO in bitCNY. I am unclear how much of the liquidity is offered by OMO and how much comes from 3rd party traders. Certainly, yesterday, the 100M volume
has not been caused by OMO. The more I think about OMO the more I believe it should be replaced by a more something that is called "community hedge fund" and allows for actual market making
to act as a regular market participant with profits for the reserves.

I believe, once we have the custom operations BSIP approved and ready on chain, we might actually be able to technically hire someone for trading and pay them for doing so. (different topic)

To conclude the discussion about MSSR, I think we should continue discussion about lowering it. I would like to see its effect on bitCNY.
However, we should learn from the lessons of raising settlement offset of 5% and make clear that we all understand when an expiriment is a success or when it failed.

That said, I would propose the following procedure:
0. let's continue discussion about how much the MSSR should be lowered
1. let's define a metric that allows us to identify if that has had any effect
2. a proposal shall be created for committee to lower it with an expiration of at least 2 weeks!
3. 3 months after the proposal has executed, the MSSR should be re-evaluated in public discussion together with the metrics of 1.
4. 2 other proposal shall be created to the committee to either approve the lower MSSR or to reset it to 10.
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Offline Yao

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首先,一直在bitCNY市场交易的用户都能注意到一个现象:bitCNY在BTS上涨趋势中是基本不会有溢价的,而在下跌趋势中基本都会溢价10%左右。

而且因为bitCNY可以通过MagicWallet提供的承兑服务与 Fiat CNY(法定货币)进行自由兑换(兑换汇率是动态的,市场化的),bitCNY 成为了 Fiat CNY(银行账户里的RMB)进出DEX的通道,而且兑换汇率基本与bitCNY的溢价联动:溢价10%左右的时候Deposit fee (充值费率)是10%左右,Withdrawal fee(提现费率)是-10%左右。

为什么下跌趋势中会长期溢价10%?不是5%、15%?一个很可能的原因是:因为 Maximum short squeeze ratio(MSSR)=1.1,被强制平仓的BTS会以10% off(低于市场价10%)的价格挂卖单卖出,所以当BTS的市场价格下跌时,买家可以预见到:一旦市场价格下跌形成趋势将会触发大量的抵押仓被强制关闭仓位,而拍卖的BTS比市场价便宜10%,那么,你会在市场价买入还是以10% off (便宜10%)的价格下订单并等着?这样一来买盘价格就会逐步后退,一开始会低于市场价(在中心化交易所的BTS价格)的1% off ,然后2%off再到5% off、10% off甚至12% off、15% off。而这时,在MagicWallet承兑平台,bitCNY的出入金手续费也跟着联动。所以你会看到:市场中有这样一种力量,他们在市场上升期逐步囤积bitCNY,然后在市场反转时,通过打击中心化交易所的BTS价格,可以让越来越多的 bitCNY 抵押债仓被强制关闭仓位,他们会获得超过10%的收益。因为MSSR=1.10,市场可以预期爆仓单将会打九折卖出,买一价格就会撤退10%,所以,他们可以毫不费力地快速将DEX里面的BTS价格砸到比中心化交易所低10%,然后bitCNY就溢价10%了。

其次,将MSSR(Maximum short squeeze ratio)从1.1调整到1.05也许是一个可以尝试的试验。我们可以借此观察一段时间,看长期维持在10%左右的溢价(出入金手续费)会不会降低到5%左右。如果结果确实如此,那么MSSR将可以成为一种灵活应对市场趋势的可调参数工具:在下跌趋势中,可以调整为1.05、1.02、1.005、1.001甚至1.0,而在上升趋势中,如有必要(比如牛市市场疯狂的时候)则可以调整到1.1甚至1.2、1.3、甚至1.5以打击激进的高杠杆抵押,让系统杠杆率不至于太高。

另外,我建议由 committee-account 控制的参数 Force settlement offset of SmartCoins (强清补偿比例,目前bitCNY为5%)应该与MSSR一起作为组合工具:在MSSR降低后高杠杆抵押仓会变得更激进,从而进一步推升系统杠杆率。但,如果我们将Force settlement offset of SmartCoins (强清补偿比例)从5%或者2%调整为0%甚至-1%,我们就可以用自由市场的力量来打击杠杆率太高的抵押仓:鼓励想以市场价购买大量BTS的人用发起Force settlement的方式购买BTS——抵押率最低的Margin positions(债仓)将逐个被强制以市场价进行结算。



Non-Chinese users can use Google Translate to understand this Chinese, for example, translation into English would be like this:


First of all, users who have been trading in the bitCNY market can notice a phenomenon: bitCNY is basically not a premium in the BTS uptrend, and basically has a premium of about 10% in the downtrend.

And because bitCNY can be freely exchanged with Fiat CNY (legal currency) through the acceptance service provided by MagicWallet (the exchange rate is dynamic and market-oriented), bitCNY becomes the channel for Fiat CNY (RMB in bank account) to enter and exit DEX, and The exchange rate is basically linked to the premium of bitCNY: when the premium is about 10%, the Deposit fee is about 10%, and the Withdrawal fee is about -10%.

Why is there a long-term premium of 10% in the downtrend? Not 5%, 15%? A very likely reason is that because the Maximum short squeeze ratio (MSSR) = 1.1, the BTS that is forced to close the position will sell at 10% off (10% below the market price), so the market price of the BTS When falling, buyers can foresee that once the market price declines will trigger a large number of mortgages to be forced to close the position, and the auction BTS is 10% cheaper than the market price, then you will buy at the market price or 10 % off (10% cheaper) price to place an order and wait? As a result, the buying price will gradually retreat, starting at 1% off the market price (on the BTS price of the central exchange), then 2% off to 5% off, 10% off or even 12% off , 15% off. At this time, in the MagicWallet acceptance platform, bitCNY's deposit and withdrawal fees are also linked. You see, there is such a force in the market that they gradually hoard bitCNY during the market upswing, and then when the market reverses, by hitting CEX's BTS price, more and more bitCNY shorter can be forced to close the position, they will get more than 10 % of revenue. Because MSSR=1.10, the market can expect the margin call order sell price to be 10% off,  then bid price will retreat by 10%. So they can effortlessly quickly push the BTS price in DEX to 10% lower than CEX, and then bitCNY is 10% premium.

Second, adjusting the MSSR (Maximum short squeeze ratio) from 1.1 to 1.05 may be an experiment that can be tried. We can use this to observe for a period of time, and see if the premium (the deposit and withdrawal fee) that is maintained at around 10% for a long time will be reduced to about 5%. If this is the case, MSSR will be a tunable tool for responding flexibly to market trends: in the downtrend, it can be adjusted to 1.05, 1.02, 1.005, 1.001 or even 1.0, and in the uptrend, if necessary ( For example, when the bull market is crazy, it can be adjusted to 1.1 or even 1.2, 1.3, or even 1.5 to combat aggressive high-leverage mortgages, so that the system leverage is not too high.

In addition, I recommend that the Force settlement offset of SmartCoins, which is controlled by the commit-account, should be used as a combination tool with the MSSR: the high-leverage mortgage will become more aggressive after the MSSR is lowered. This further pushes up the system leverage. However, if we adjust the Force settlement offset of SmartCoins from 5% or 2% to 0% or even -1%, we can use the power of the free market to combat mortgages with too high leverage: Encourage Those who want to buy a large number of BTSs at market prices buy BTS by initiating Force settlement – ​​Margin positions with the lowest mortgage rate will be forced to settle at market prices one by one.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 11:03:09 am by Yao »
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Offline Yao

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              事实上,当我们修正了喂价之后,这个问题也就没有了。因为新的喂价=目前的喂价+充值费率,



     As a matter of fact, when we corrected the price, the problem was gone. Because the new feed price = current price plus recharge rate.

事实上,鼓鼓几个月前就提供了bitCNY提费率率API,国内见证人基本都在发布喂价前加入bitCNY充提费率对喂价进行了修正,但这个操作无法改变bitCNY溢价问题。
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Online Bangzi

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"2. a proposal shall be created for committee to lower it with an expiration of at least 2 weeks!"

MSSR set by witnesses
Please Vote for My Witness: Bangzi
请投票支持比特股见证人: Bangzi
Witness Update: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26459.0

Offline bitcrab

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I believe, once we have the custom operations BSIP approved and ready on chain, we might actually be able to technically hire someone for trading and pay them for doing so. (different topic)


any detail about the custom operations BSIP?

That said, I would propose the following procedure:
0. let's continue discussion about how much the MSSR should be lowered
1. let's define a metric that allows us to identify if that has had any effect
2. a proposal shall be created for committee to lower it with an expiration of at least 2 weeks!
3. 3 months after the proposal has executed, the MSSR should be re-evaluated in public discussion together with the metrics of 1.
4. 2 other proposal shall be created to the committee to either approve the lower MSSR or to reset it to 10.
actually MSSR is pushed by witnesses like feed price, it's not a committee controlled parameter, so witnesses can push the MSSR value which they think proper.

as I know, 2 witnesses has switched to push 1.05 as MSSR, more witnesses are working for the change.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 08:24:28 am by bitcrab »

Offline Thul3

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@JonnyB, it is a little unfair to claim he is changing anything. If at all, it is the committee that has the power to modify parameters. That includes more than just bitcrab.

Thats why i asked what changed on the OMO fund for bitcrab,jademont,ebit who broke community consensus.
You are leaving that question and it seems for part of the community like a free ticket.

0.Currently nothing because we are in a bear market and BTS price could go way lower.The market is already dried out at 10%.
It would create an additional risk when currently lowering to 5% that there will be a gap which can't be filled by external funds
anymore and could lead to a quicker dump of the BTS price.
It would also cause that the USD/CNY price will diverge even more seeing a USD price of arround 7.35 CNY which is also not anatural price .

1.

2.Only when the bear market ends.Else the commitee adds even more uncalculated risk to the community which could harm it.

3.Change from 2 weeks to 3 months i don't understand.Please explain this to me

4.If i understand it correctly during that time you let the MSSR  stay at 1.05 and will only reset it if there is enough opponents to it raising their concern ?
Turning arround the way it should be that it will only get changed if there will be enough for worter for it into it only won't get changed if there are not enough against speaker ?

Quote
as I know, 2 witnesses has switched to push 1.05 as MSSR, more witnesses are working for the change.

These witnesses have changed the MSSR based on community consensus ?


JUST AS INFO I'M GOING TO PUBLISH THE WITNESSES NAME WHICH CHANGED IT ALREADY TO 1.05 WITHOUT ANY CONSENSUS.

I hope the community will show you their love for it
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 08:42:00 am by Thul3 »

Offline gghi

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              事实上,当我们修正了喂价之后,这个问题也就没有了。因为新的喂价=目前的喂价+充值费率,



     As a matter of fact, when we corrected the price, the problem was gone. Because the new feed price = current price plus recharge rate.

事实上,鼓鼓几个月前就提供了bitCNY提费率率API,国内见证人基本都在发布喂价前加入bitCNY充提费率对喂价进行了修正,但这个操作无法改变bitCNY溢价问题。

          确实MSSR是影响充值费率很高的一个因素,但是目前的喂价并没有按照我的方案修正。因为如果修正了的话,在充值费十个点的时候喂价可以上升10%,这样可以对冲MSSR的10%。
      降低MSSR可能有作用,但是风险也是显而易见的,那就是会没人吃爆仓单,市场流动会变差,黑天鹅的可能性会变得更大了,当然可以先试试。不改革肯定是不行了,我还是觉得提高喂价的方案风险小些,因为鼓鼓的充值费率是动态变化的,这样喂价也可以跟着动态调整。

     It is true that MSSR is a factor affecting the high charge rate, but the current feeding price has not been revised according to my plan. Because if corrected, the charge can rise by 10% at 10 points, which hedges 10% of the MSSR.
Reducing MSSR may be helpful, but the risk is obvious, that is, no one will eat the exploded warehouse receipts, market liquidity will become worse, the possibility of a black swan will become greater, of course, you can try. It's definitely not going to work without reform. I still think the risk of raising the price of feeding is less, because the drum charging rate is dynamic, so the feeding price can be adjusted dynamically.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:25:55 am by gghi »

Offline xeroc

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First of all, users who have been trading in the bitCNY market can notice a phenomenon: bitCNY is basically not a premium in the BTS uptrend, and basically has a premium of about 10% in the downtrend.
That is *EXPECTED* behavior. Nothing new. It was even mentioned in the original bitshares whitepaper!

And because bitCNY can be freely exchanged with Fiat CNY (legal currency) through the acceptance service provided by MagicWallet (the exchange rate is dynamic and market-oriented), bitCNY becomes the channel for Fiat CNY (RMB in bank account) to enter and exit DEX, and The exchange rate is basically linked to the premium of bitCNY: when the premium is about 10%, the Deposit fee is about 10%, and the Withdrawal fee is about -10%.
Erm, excuse my ignorance, but why do you figure this out only now?! We've been telling people for years that this is one of the major problems of
bitassets and that a market that trades a bitasset against its underlying asset will experience **EXACTLY** what you are describing now.

Quote
Why is there a long-term premium of 10% in the downtrend? Not 5%, 15%? A very likely reason is that because the Maximum short squeeze ratio (MSSR) = 1.1, the BTS that is forced to close the position will sell at 10% off (10% below the market price), so the market price of the BTS When falling, buyers can foresee that once the market price declines will trigger a large number of mortgages to be forced to close the position, and the auction BTS is 10% cheaper than the market price, then you will buy at the market price or 10 % off (10% cheaper) price to place an order and wait? As a result, the buying price will gradually retreat, starting at 1% off the market price (on the BTS price of the central exchange), then 2% off to 5% off, 10% off or even 12% off , 15% off. At this time, in the MagicWallet acceptance platform, bitCNY's deposit and withdrawal fees are also linked.
That's accurate! And that is why liquidity will narrow down that premium. However, you need more market participants to obtain sufficiently closed peg. Fortunately, bitCNY is more liquid than others
and is probably the first and only bitasset for which such as discussion makes sense.

Quote
Second, adjusting the MSSR (Maximum short squeeze ratio) from 1.1 to 1.05 may be an experiment that can be tried. We can use this to observe for a period of time, and see if the premium (the deposit and withdrawal fee) that is maintained at around 10% for a long time will be reduced to about 5%. If this is the case, MSSR will be a tunable tool for responding flexibly to market trends: in the downtrend, it can be adjusted to 1.05, 1.02, 1.005, 1.001 or even 1.0, and in the uptrend, if necessary ( For example, when the bull market is crazy, it can be adjusted to 1.1 or even 1.2, 1.3, or even 1.5 to combat aggressive high-leverage mortgages, so that the system leverage is not too high.
Agreed

Quote
In addition, I recommend that the Force settlement offset of SmartCoins, which is controlled by the commit-account, should be used as a combination tool with the MSSR: the high-leverage mortgage will become more aggressive after the MSSR is lowered. This further pushes up the system leverage. However, if we adjust the Force settlement offset of SmartCoins from 5% or 2% to 0% or even -1%, we can use the power of the free market to combat mortgages with too high leverage: Encourage Those who want to buy a large number of BTSs at market prices buy BTS by initiating Force settlement – ​​Margin positions with the lowest mortgage rate will be forced to settle at market prices one by one.
-1% is not possible, technically.
There has been many voices that request settlement offset to be reduced to 1% again.
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I believe, once we have the custom operations BSIP approved and ready on chain, we might actually be able to technically hire someone for trading and pay them for doing so. (different topic)


any detail about the custom operations BSIP?
This is in development and allows to setup keys that are restricted, for instance, to only trade a specific market and do not have access to the funds in general - trading only.
Or another key could be used to allow only adjusting of collateral ratios etc ....

actually MSSR is pushed by witnesses like feed price, it's not a committee controlled parameter, so witnesses can push the MSSR value which they think proper.
Good point!

as I know, 2 witnesses has switched to push 1.05 as MSSR, more witnesses are working for the change.
While I agree with the proposal in general, I do *not* agree with the witnesses just flipping their opinions singlehandedly .. without even having discussed things with the BTS voters ..
For me, I saw this proposal only today and haven't been given sufficient time to let the proposal sink in properly.

The consequence might as well be that I need to look into removing my vote for witnesses that just "do" without community engagement. So far, the consensus has been a 10% MSSR.
I understand that the english-speaking community is not the target-audience for bitCNY, but I do feel a responsibility towards the BitShares Blockchain as
a platform with bitCNY being a prominent "product" - that is why I engage in discussions around bitCNY frequently and try to provide my point of view.

Rushing changes without proper discussion rarely results in good outcome. Let's rather argue here in the forums and see where the community and wisdom of the crowd puts us.
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Offline MrFrismint

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How come 3 witnesses are already changing to 5%?

Offline bitcrab

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as I know, 2 witnesses has switched to push 1.05 as MSSR, more witnesses are working for the change.
While I agree with the proposal in general, I do *not* agree with the witnesses just flipping their opinions singlehandedly .. without even having discussed things with the BTS voters ..
For me, I saw this proposal only today and haven't been given sufficient time to let the proposal sink in properly.

The consequence might as well be that I need to look into removing my vote for witnesses that just "do" without community engagement. So far, the consensus has been a 10% MSSR.
I understand that the english-speaking community is not the target-audience for bitCNY, but I do feel a responsibility towards the BitShares Blockchain as
a platform with bitCNY being a prominent "product" - that is why I engage in discussions around bitCNY frequently and try to provide my point of view.

Rushing changes without proper discussion rarely results in good outcome. Let's rather argue here in the forums and see where the community and wisdom of the crowd puts us.

actually China community has discussed this topic a lot, it's not a very new idea. witnesses like magicwallet has suggested to reduce MSSR before, they are not "just do it".

to make the new MSSR take effects need more than 14 witnesses to change, I feel it will take more than 1 week, we can discuss this topic sufficiently in this time and stop the change immediately if community reach an consensus that the change is dangerous.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:52:09 am by bitcrab »

Offline Thul3

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as I know, 2 witnesses has switched to push 1.05 as MSSR, more witnesses are working for the change.
While I agree with the proposal in general, I do *not* agree with the witnesses just flipping their opinions singlehandedly .. without even having discussed things with the BTS voters ..
For me, I saw this proposal only today and haven't been given sufficient time to let the proposal sink in properly.

The consequence might as well be that I need to look into removing my vote for witnesses that just "do" without community engagement. So far, the consensus has been a 10% MSSR.
I understand that the english-speaking community is not the target-audience for bitCNY, but I do feel a responsibility towards the BitShares Blockchain as
a platform with bitCNY being a prominent "product" - that is why I engage in discussions around bitCNY frequently and try to provide my point of view.

Rushing changes without proper discussion rarely results in good outcome. Let's rather argue here in the forums and see where the community and wisdom of the crowd puts us.

actually China community has discussed this topic a lot, it's not a very new idea. witnesses like magicwallet has suggested to reduce MSSR before, they are not "just do it".

to make the new MSSR take effects need more than 14 witnesses to change, I feel it will take more than 1 week, we can discuss this topic sufficiently in this time and stop the change immediately if community reach an consensus that the change is dangerous.

First 3 witnesses who changed MSSR :

witness.yao
delegate.freedom
magicwallet.witness

If you got them as witness voted you can unvote them if you don't agree to their actions

Offline bitcrab

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I believe, once we have the custom operations BSIP approved and ready on chain, we might actually be able to technically hire someone for trading and pay them for doing so. (different topic)


any detail about the custom operations BSIP?
This is in development and allows to setup keys that are restricted, for instance, to only trade a specific market and do not have access to the funds in general - trading only.
Or another key could be used to allow only adjusting of collateral ratios etc ....

any doc that describe the design? I haven't found any in https://github.com/bitshares/bsips