Author Topic: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!  (Read 34320 times)

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Offline 991060

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2014, 09:30:00 am »
I do not think this is a good idea.

First there were PTS which were issued with the claim that they would present the holder with a share in every new DAC. Then there came AGS with exactly the same claim and by that diverting value from PTS. Now if you use only the Feb 28th snapshot for every new chain that the value of AGS and PTS has again been further diverted, this time to the snapshot for BTS.
I think his evokes the danger of appearing to raise money for a product to raise money for a product to raise money etc..

I am unsure how to feel about this. How many more fundraising Shares etc will be issued?
Are PTS and AGS the final two for every new DAC or will there be more?

Of course PTS and AGS still offer a share in every new DAC but given that Bitshares X is arguably your most high profile project at the moment, I think the incentive to keep these two will be very low after one has BTS.

As I understand it, the value of holding PTS/AGS is transfered into holding BTS rather than being diverted by it (assuming the owner does not sell his BTS before the descendant chains are created).

The only significant change compared to the previous announcement is that the Feb 28th snapshot will be used regardless if the XT chain will be reset or not.

Offline Markus

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2014, 09:51:56 am »
I do not think this is a good idea.

First there were PTS which were issued with the claim that they would present the holder with a share in every new DAC. Then there came AGS with exactly the same claim and by that diverting value from PTS. Now if you use only the Feb 28th snapshot for every new chain that the value of AGS and PTS has again been further diverted, this time to the snapshot for BTS.
I think his evokes the danger of appearing to raise money for a product to raise money for a product to raise money etc..

I am unsure how to feel about this. How many more fundraising Shares etc will be issued?
Are PTS and AGS the final two for every new DAC or will there be more?

Of course PTS and AGS still offer a share in every new DAC but given that Bitshares X is arguably your most high profile project at the moment, I think the incentive to keep these two will be very low after one has BTS.

The proposed scheme of all new Bitshares branched off Bitshares XT actually means raising less new funds: AGS will become less attractive to investors as part of its value is transferred to Bitshares XT. I guess III didn't expect to raise this much so quickly (3 million $ in 6 weeks) and that amount should be enough to pay for developing all proposed new DACs.

Also now you will have the possibility of choosing specifically where you want to invest: BTS or the other DACs.

Offline alt

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2014, 11:04:45 am »
If XT failed, new chain will guarentee the right of BTS holder.
So the backing BTS, the BTS, get same value in the new chain. But bitUSD get zero value.
Obvious, most value is give to backing BTS(all debt for bitUSD is cancel), BTS is next, and bitUSD get nothing.
Expected at this, Will you sell BTS for bitUSD? what's the price? If somebody buy bts from you with real USD, waht's your price?
And what's the short price will you accept?

my offer is  sell 1BTS at price 10000bitUSD/bts. but if it's real USD, I can accept price 200usd/bts.
my short price is 10bitUSD/bts

here is my question:
1. In the obvious unfairness is expected, the market can reach a consensus?
2. can  bitUSD follow the price of real USD?

按照最新分配规则,如果XT失败,创建新的链会保证XT上BTS持有者的权益,按XT 上的BTS持有分配。
那么XT上作为担保的BTS以及直接持有的BTS,在新链上的价值是相同的。而XT上的bitUSD在新链上没任何价值。
这样的分配方式很明显,最大利益倾向作为抵押的BTS(因为它对应的债务全抵消了),其次是持有的BTS,而bitUSD最倒霉。
在这样的预期下,你会选择卖BTS换 bitUSD吗?你会在什么价位卖BTS?如果有人拿美金买BTS,你又会出什么价位呢?
又选择在什么价位发行bitUSD呢?

我愿意在10000bitUSD/bts 卖1个BTS,而200美金/bts的价格,我就愿意卖一部分BTS。
而仅仅在 10bitUSD/bts 价位发行bitUSD。

1. 在明显的不公平预期下,市场能达成共识吗?
2. 在这样的预期下,XT上的bitUSD能和美金挂钩吗?

Offline alt

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2014, 11:09:04 am »
In my opnion. New chain shold honor not only the BTS holder, but also the bit Access holder.
Depend this, XT is what we want, maybe It can follow the real USD.
So  my choice is  clone the total block chain, include BTS and bitAccess and short position.

我认为分配方式除了保证XT 上BTS的权益外,同样应该保证bitUSD权益,只有这样,XT才有意义。
把整个XT的链完全克隆过去是不是更合适呢?

Offline Markus

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2014, 01:16:38 pm »
In my opnion. New chain shold honor not only the BTS holder, but also the bit Access holder.
Depend this, XT is what we want, maybe It can follow the real USD.
So  my choice is  clone the total block chain, include BTS and bitAccess and short position.

我认为分配方式除了保证XT 上BTS的权益外,同样应该保证bitUSD权益,只有这样,XT才有意义。
把整个XT的链完全克隆过去是不是更合适呢?

Holding BitAssets involves no risk, holding BTS does. Shorting a BitAsset means double risk (including that one the BitAsset holder does not have anymore).
Risk should be rewarded.

Offline alt

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2014, 01:46:45 pm »
Holding BitAssets involves no risk only If it's a stable version.
for me holding BitAssets is a huge risk.  :o

In my opnion. New chain shold honor not only the BTS holder, but also the bit Access holder.
Depend this, XT is what we want, maybe It can follow the real USD.
So  my choice is  clone the total block chain, include BTS and bitAccess and short position.

我认为分配方式除了保证XT 上BTS的权益外,同样应该保证bitUSD权益,只有这样,XT才有意义。
把整个XT的链完全克隆过去是不是更合适呢?

Holding BitAssets involves no risk, holding BTS does. Shorting a BitAsset means double risk (including that one the BitAsset holder does not have anymore).
Risk should be rewarded.

Offline FelixO

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2014, 03:53:19 pm »
Additionaly, if one planned on investing in AGS after Feb 28th with the intention of getting a share in later chains, then one is now stuck with far fewer BTS due to the inevitable increased funding. I think this decision arose far too close to the final snapshot date.

Also does this decision imply, that if one wanted to enter ANY of the future chains on Bitshares X (through shares) then one needs to be part of the Feb 28 snapshot? Because that would without a doubt sharply decrease the value of PTS and AGS, seeing as Bitshares X is arguably your most high profile project at the moment.

But again: Will PTS and AGS remain as the only fundraising shares or are there more to come? I think this is absolut vital information for any investor.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 03:59:36 pm by FelixO »

Offline Stan

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2014, 04:00:44 pm »
I do not think this is a good idea.

First there were PTS which were issued with the claim that they would present the holder with a share in every new DAC. Then there came AGS with exactly the same claim and by that diverting value from PTS. Now if you use only the Feb 28th snapshot for every new chain that the value of AGS and PTS has again been further diverted, this time to the snapshot for BTS.
I think his evokes the danger of appearing to raise money for a product to raise money for a product to raise money etc..

I am unsure how to feel about this. How many more fundraising Shares etc will be issued?
Are PTS and AGS the final two for every new DAC or will there be more?

Of course PTS and AGS still offer a share in every new DAC but given that Bitshares X is arguably your most high profile project at the moment, I think the incentive to keep these two will be very low after one has BTS.

The proposed scheme of all new Bitshares branched off Bitshares XT actually means raising less new funds: AGS will become less attractive to investors as part of its value is transferred to Bitshares XT. I guess III didn't expect to raise this much so quickly (3 million $ in 6 weeks) and that amount should be enough to pay for developing all proposed new DACs.

Also now you will have the possibility of choosing specifically where you want to invest: BTS or the other DACs.

An exchange cannot trade freely and grow robustly if every branch and upgrade resets ownership.
We simply removed that worry.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2014, 04:42:41 pm »
You very very much did not remove worry, you guys appear to have further complicated an already complicated situation that was very simple until you opted to change the deal after it was struck and the agreed upon price paid.   

I feel like I keep saying this.  STOP TALKING UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO AND THEN DONT CHANGE IT

This is actively starting to piss me off and I have a VERY long time horizon, I really really really hope you can not change the deal any further.   When you change the deal it demonstrates that the deal is bullshit, always was subject to the momentary whims of the asymmetrically advantaged one of two parties making the deal.  You've also shown that Invictus is not afraid to cause actual damage to their prior investors because again, you felt like it's a good idea at the time.

I think it's pretty apparent that I'm not a troll so why do I feel this way?  Am I an outlier or am I just an early complainer?  History is a good guide, best of luck.
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2014, 04:53:57 pm »
Less


and more


Email me at [email protected]

Offline toast

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2014, 05:34:18 pm »
The way I see it all decisions so far have increased value of PTS/AGS holders

When AGS was introduced to "divert value" they actually made PTS give 5x more BTS
When it was said that BTS snapshots will be used instead of AGS/PTS for BTS derivatives it means you will get more of each subsequent chain since your PTS/AGS share % would be lower but your BTS share % will only be lower if you sell your BTS X
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline FelixO

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2014, 05:45:41 pm »
Well maybe "divert" was the wrong word, what I mean is that it is a shifting of value from one project to the next with the promise of the next project only to realize that it's objective is to create value for the next project and so on..

Therefore I want to know: Will PTS and AGS remain as the only fundraising shares or are there more to come?

This is a vital information for any investor.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 05:56:45 pm by FelixO »

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2014, 06:01:36 pm »
Well maybe "divert" was the wrong word, what I mean is that it is simply a shifting of value from one project to the next with the promise of the next project only to realize that it's objective is to create value for the next project and so on..

Therefore I want to know: Will PTS and AGS remain as the only fundraising shares or are there more to come?

PTS and AGS have committed 20% of the future of everything we do.   Individual DACs may have fundraisers for some part of the remaining 80% but obviously we do not want to raise money unnecessarily.   So when you plan your investment, anything MORE than 20% is a huge bonus.  Also, we cannot make any allocation that is not forum tested & market approved or someone (Like Toast) will simply fork it. 

As we have stated in the past, contributions to the AGS fund are donations and actual allocations in block chains will be based upon what ever the market decides to do.  You have never had to trust us on this because we cannot change any rules or do anything that the market will not accept (that would be centralized).   Instead, we are merely recommending that future BitShares X chains honor prior BitShares X chains as being in the best interest of both old and new chains.   Obviously someone like Toast is free to ignore that recommendation and decide to honor AGS/PTS 50/50  or   AGS/PTS with 20% and the previous version with 80%.   What ever the individual who launches the chain feels is most likely to win over the user base and not piss people off. 

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline graffenwalder

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2014, 06:07:47 pm »
Can someone confirm this?:

60 days of funding for the snapshot. Jan+Feb+1 keyhotee
AGS created 10000*60=600k
2 million/600k=3.3333 BTS per AGS
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 06:14:50 pm by Graffenwalder »

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2014, 06:14:58 pm »
Can someone confirm this?:

60 days of funding for the snapshot. Jan+Feb+1 keyhotee
AGS created 5000*60=300k
2 million/300k=6.66666 BTS per AGS

That looks right to me.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.