Author Topic: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!  (Read 34321 times)

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Offline thisisausername

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2014, 06:20:12 pm »
Can someone confirm this?:

60 days of funding for the snapshot. Jan+Feb+1 keyhotee
AGS created 5000*60=300k
2 million/300k=6.66666 BTS per AGS

That looks right to me.

3.33_.

10,000 AGS per day, 5000 from BTC, 5000 from PTS.
Pjo39s6hfpWexsZ6gEBC9iwH9HTAgiEXTG

Offline graffenwalder

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2014, 06:24:17 pm »
Thanks

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2014, 06:30:41 pm »
Can someone confirm this?:

60 days of funding for the snapshot. Jan+Feb+1 keyhotee
AGS created 5000*60=300k
2 million/300k=6.66666 BTS per AGS

That looks right to me.

3.33_.

10,000 AGS per day, 5000 from BTC, 5000 from PTS.

Err... yes, this :)
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2014, 06:35:52 pm »

You have never had to trust us on this because we cannot change any rules or do anything that the market will not accept (that would be centralized).   

That's just not true, we had to trust you when you said that PTS were the only way to acquire BTS without mining them or buying them on a market.   You promised that, we trusted you, you changed your mind and changed the deal.

The way I see it all decisions so far have increased value of PTS/AGS holders

In the long term this might be true, but I think that the decision to allocate 100% to premine instead of 10% to premine and 90% to equitable (as percieved by the market) mining actually will make it much more difficult to bootstrap a larger community than the original plan suggested.   In the short and medium term AGS had a devastating impact on PTS both in terms of price and in terms of broad investment appeal. 

Now the deal is changing again, PTS are having most of their medium-term value sucked out since most of the new chains will apparently be derived from BTS, a bad solution to a problem only caused because you introduced a second investment vehicle and therefore created two standards of investors which then required consolidation.

Seriously how do you not see that you are shotgunning your credibility in the foot over and over again with these repeated changes on deals already made.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 06:50:44 pm by AdamBLevine »
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Offline FelixO

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2014, 06:45:26 pm »
I have to agree with Adam here. This is definitely an issue.

Also this announcement with the change of such an important decision has come out far too close to the snapshot. Why did you plan such an important thing not ahead, or the other way, why the rush if things are not completely planned?

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2014, 07:14:12 pm »
I am happy with that decision because I think it add clarity.

But I do think it can become a problem if you keep changing the rule of the game. You should make some kind of declaration on what rules are set in stone and which one are susceptible to change so the investors have visibility.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 07:21:03 pm by BldSwtTrs »

Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2014, 07:44:56 pm »
I am happy with that decision because I think it add clarity.

But I do think it can become a problem if you keep changing the rule of the game. You should make some kind of declaration on what rules are set in stone and which one are susceptible to change so the investors have visibility.

I will say that we could do a better job of communicating these things in a single place...

Our commitments were 'set in stone':

1) Give 2 week notice of snapshots
2) Give PTS holders at least 10%
3) Give AGS holders at least 10%
4) Give PTS and AGS holders 50/50 of first BitShares X chain

On these four points nothing has changed and in fact we gave a month notice of Feb 28th, we are allocating 50/50 for AGS and PTS holders and we just announced that these AGS and PTS holders should be getting 50/50 of every BitShares X chain via inheritance rather than just the first.   This is a Big boon that had we considered this earlier we could have raised more money. 

Further more it was no secret that as soon as BitShares X was near completion and ready for a snapshot that we would do so.  In fact, since early January everyone has been aware that we would be launching a minimal viable product that would be updated with new features over time. 

But I suppose it doesn't matter who is right or wrong here as that is not the point. The point is that there are people out there who were expecting something else (rightly or wrongly) and things appear to have changed.  It really seems like those planning on a 200 day investment strategy who expected all 200 days to count toward some BitShares X chains (but apparently knew they would be missing at least the first chain) may feel they got a raw deal.  On the other hand they haven't missed any opportunities, they just have to buy it from BitShares X holders rather than giving us the money while we continue to debase PTS and AGS holders mining and raising funds.

If there is one thing I would rather be known for it would be for maximizing value received by existing PTS and AGS holders and thus rewarding them for their faith in what we are doing.  What BitShares X will do is peal off BitShares X investment money and create new opportunities for those who want to invest in all of our other ideas at a bargain without having to pay prices near with BitShares X is worth. Our other ideas are less developed and thus risker so those investing in those ideas were not being served well by having to compete with BitShares X investors. 

We try our best.  Speak our thoughts.  And honestly try to look out for everyone. 

Things that are subject to change:
1) Technical Implementation Details and Feature Sets  - these must be flexible to adapt to changing conditions as we are learning as we go.
2) Any allocation above 10/10 AGS and PTS for any future chains.
3) The market may choose a different allocation strategy than we recommend... so this is subject to forces beyond our control.  For example, had we simply declared that upon further review 80% of everything other than the first BitShares X chain would belong to Invictus, I doubt the market would approve or follow such recommendations.  So consider every allocation strategy we recommend to be ultimately subject to the market.   This means that someone could launch a copy of BitShares X that honors 10% PTS and mines the rest according to the original schedule....  So in a sense you are investing in the market consensus and NOT in us.  We merely make recommendations as to what we believe will be the most effective strategies for those wishing to launch new DACs.   After all the true value of a DAC does not come from the source, but from the network effect of users. 


 

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Offline Shentist

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2014, 07:52:39 pm »
60 day a 10.000 ags shares = 600.000 ags and 10.000 shares for keyhotee = 610.000 ags for the funding period

but how do you allocate the last 1.390.000 ags ?

1. 1.390.000 / 60 =23.166,67 ags more each day

or

2. 1.390.000 / 600.000 = 2,32 ags more each ags

only allocaten 1. will be a fair allocation, because it will honor the different days. or can i just throw some btc in the last day and get 2.32 ags each ags i get for my day?

on the longrun, you should talk this decisions with your community. you change a lot and the most people don't like change. the only solution i could think about. first talk and take the tought of the community and then you can change.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2014, 08:07:34 pm »

You'll notice that you're describing the change from the last deal to the most recent deal, but that's not anywhere close to the first deal which did not conceptualize of AGS.    Seems like it might be a worthwhile endeavor to have someone not you actually map the social contract and how it has changed over time becaues this is very confusing

Furthermore, you did not address my point.


You have never had to trust us on this because we cannot change any rules or do anything that the market will not accept (that would be centralized).   

That's just not true, we had to trust you when you said that PTS were the only way to acquire BTS without mining them or buying them on a market.   You promised that, we trusted you, you changed your mind and changed the deal.

and finally, I've suggested before and I now think its actively hurting that all of these communications are conducted via a forum and a newsletter,  you guys REALLY need to start an accessible public company blog that is a centralized point (gasp) where information can be shared.   It's fine to generate everything decentrally but this is a giant mess.  The people who respond on the forums are the ones who still trust you enough to care to complain, and before you say anyone who doesn't want to support the project for the long term should sell their shares just understand that these are all people who believed in the project enough to jump through the hoops of getting vested in the first place who you are literally chasing away with your poor corporate practices and cavalier attitude about expectation management.   

You think launching solves your problem but it's the beginning, you need to get your house in order and fix communication BEFORE you launch.
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Offline kingslanding

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2014, 08:10:51 pm »


In the short and medium term AGS had a devastating impact on PTS both in terms of price and in terms of broad investment appeal. 


I agree w/ Adam on this point.  I've purchased more PTS than AGS because I like the liquidity part of PTS.  I figured this would cost me the 3.33x benefit for just ONE bitshares X chain.  But now that this cost applies to ALL derived chains (which could amount to many more than future DACs combined), I feel I've paid way too much.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2014, 08:35:02 pm »


In the short and medium term AGS had a devastating impact on PTS both in terms of price and in terms of broad investment appeal. 


I agree w/ Adam on this point.  I've purchased more PTS than AGS because I like the liquidity part of PTS.  I figured this would cost me the 3.33x benefit for just ONE bitshares X chain.  But now that this cost applies to ALL derived chains (which could amount to many more than future DACs combined), I feel I've paid way too much.

I really don't want to argue about what is best because this post was all about recommendations based upon my analysis of the market.  It seems like an alternative that someone could choose is to honor AGS and PTS with 20% and BTS XT with 80% and it would still honor the entire social contract without changing any expectations.   

So rather than me proposing solutions (Honoring BTS rather than AGS and PTS for BitShares X chains)... I would like to hear from the community how they would recommend resolving the following issue:

Every new BitShares X chain which adds an upgrade (Interest, etc) will impact prior chains.  Why would someone with money invest it in BitShares XT if they expect a future enhancement that would compete and potentially undermine their initial investment?   Everyone will stick with PTS until there was a clear winner which would really slow the adoption of BitShares XT.   

This recommendation increased the value you will receive from the PTS you have purchased as it will not be debased after the 28th.  What you are really saying is that AGS has been undervalued and you would have rather purchased AGS than PTS because this recommendation would benefit AGS holders more than PTS holders.   In effect, this appears to be a case of missed opportunity rather than a case of devaluing PTS. 

It would seem (based on AGS donations) that this change has dramatically increased the valuation of AGS vs PTS without actually devaluing PTS in real terms.

 


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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2014, 09:08:50 pm »
Stop posting "just your thoughts and analysis" as a stickyd post that says Bitshares X Product Roadmap.   If what you say is true that's bullshit, this is a first proposal that you are willing to backtrack on given enough pushback, but that's not articulated in the actual message you're sending out which is "This is the roadmap" and a roadmap doesn't change often, does it?

I totally agree, stop suggesting solutions to problems you create.  Also stop creating them.  Just work on Bitshares, talk about a plan internally, put out FEELER posts that do not say things like PRODUCT ROADMAP but rather say "Idea for <WHATEVER>" in a forum not intended for news or announcements but discussion of IDEAS. 

Your fixation on short term value is really disappointing, for someone as logical as you are I''m shocked at how you don't see your rules based system breaking down because you aren't following the rules or letting anyone else do so either. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 09:13:23 pm by AdamBLevine »
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Offline toast

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Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2014, 09:47:58 pm »
Consider I3 has made it clear they will not interfere with any attempts to make "better" chains I don't see why everyone is so worried. Right now everyone is taking Dan's word too seriously and ignoring the actual value of PTS, which is the influence PTS holders collectively have on the space.

When someone starts working on a later fork they could easily set up two funding addresses for PTS and BTS and allocate the new shares according to what investors want. If PTS holders want their share they will make it clear.
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2014, 09:55:55 pm »
I must sy that I am finding Bytemaster's posts more compelling than Adam's. I do not see a problem with what Bytemaster is proposing from my perspective as an investor in both PTS and AGS.

The caveat to this is that I am retired and have plenty of time to spend reading this Forum and keeping up with the twists and turns. That would be a problen to those who can only check in occasionally no doubt.

I spend a great deal of time reading the Forum because I liike to keep an eye on my ionvestment, and because I am fully in harmiony with III's decentalizing approach (I lost a great deal of money when MT. Gox's dollar account was seized because I was invested in an endeavor that did not take decentralization seriously)

Offline graffenwalder

Re: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2014, 10:00:27 pm »
Hi Adam,

From a noobs perspective I think you're overreacting a bit.

In this fast evolving crypto space, I'd rather see a company adapt and make changes, then just continue the lesser original plan. If the funding with PTS was simply just not enough, then AGS was necessary. Something could be said about how AGS devalued PTS in the short term, but it's to late to reverse. But the value of PTS to BTS and following DAC's hasn't got worse.

So far the decisions made by III seem logical.